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LanzaCarlos
31-01-2006, 02:29 PM
Can anyone tell me please when R22 ceased to be legal in new equipment, (a) in USA, and (b) in Europe.

I have tried to find thiese dates on the web but what I have found only relates to the manufacturing phase-out and not to the actual use by OEM's in new kit.

Thanks, Carlos

Josip
31-01-2006, 04:31 PM
Please take a look at this pdf list 752

Argus
31-01-2006, 06:18 PM
I can only speak about Europe.

If English is your preferred language, here is the UK Govt?s web site that has some background info, plus user?s guides and explanations you can down load. http://www.dti.gov.uk/access/ozone.htm

There is a link to the actual regulation in it, but here it is anyway:
http://www.dti.gov.uk/access/regulation2037.pdf
(If you need it in other European languages, they are available on the Europa web site.)

For R22 (HCFC) usage and phase-out, I suggest you read article 5 - slowly.

Some things to note:


The European market for HCFCs is dwindling rapidly, production quotas are being reduced and the cost is going up.

New stock for service use is stopped at 2010. Recycled phased out stock in 2015, followed by a use ban.(Read the definition of ?use?). This is in Article 5 -1? c (v)
That?s what it says now. If you look at the 3rd indent it says that the commission has to re-examine the dates before the end of 2008. They are doing this now and the smart thinking says that the phase-out dates above will be revised soon.


As far as OEMs making systems are concerned, they are governed by the same rules as manufacturers. This does not apply to spare parts or components for existing systems.

But the ecconomic reality is that nobody is investing in R22 any longer in Europe.

Read the Regulation.

As a side issue, the Fluorinated Gas Regulation continues. The Conciliation Committee is meeting today and tomorrow to begin to sort out the differences between the Council and Parliament. This one will regulate all HFCs, plus other substances.

.
________
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LanzaCarlos
01-02-2006, 09:28 AM
Thanks for the info, very interesting. The key date of importance to me depends on equipment definition. I am concerned with a small packaged swimming pool heat pump (2.5kWe compressor), it is an not airconditioning plant nor is it a fridge and its not reversible so what type of plant is it defined as? To me Article 5, Regulation 1C(iv) is ambiguous in that it does not specifically refer to small non-reversible heat pumps. I would be interested to hear how others interpret the definition

LanzaCarlos
01-02-2006, 09:53 AM
If anyone can give me the USA equivalent info please do so, in particular the answer to the question: When did it become illegal to manufacture/package plant with R22 as the refrigerant?

Argus
01-02-2006, 10:56 AM
Thanks for the info, very interesting. The key date of importance to me depends on equipment definition. I am concerned with a small packaged swimming pool heat pump (2.5kWe compressor), it is an not airconditioning plant nor is it a fridge and its not reversible so what type of plant is it defined as? To me Article 5, Regulation 1C(iv) is ambiguous in that it does not specifically refer to small non-reversible heat pumps. I would be interested to hear how others interpret the definition

I agree that the text of 2037/200 is hard to understand. I believe that the practice with new regulation in Europe is to produce the drafts in French (probably because it emanates from Brussels) then translate to other languages and the final text has to be in a form of words that will translate literally and idiomatically into the other languages. There?s a disagreement going on now with the F gas Regs in the second reading amendments because the words ?inspect for leakage? in French implies that it has to be done by an independent body. It?s what we?ve come to expect from the EU.

As to whether the small heat-only heat pump is covered in Article 5, the answer is yes, it is. These and other questions were raised when the regulation came out and I believe that there was a FAQ sheet produced at the time, but it was a long time ago.

The fact that its useful product is heats doesn?t detract from the fact that it is a refrigeration machine. It does this through the refrigeration process, so it is covered in Article 5 ? 1 - c - (iv), the first sentence says,

"from January 1 2001 in all other refrigeration and air conditioning equipment produced after 31 December 2000?.?

It goes on to provide a derogation for other types and for reversible heat pump equipment to 2004; your kit won?t qualify for that because it is not reversible.

One thing to consider though is the exact wording of the dates above. It is intended to allow manufacturers to sell out their equipment already in stock after the prohibition date. If you can prove that it was manufactured before 31 December 2000, then in theory you can still legally sell it, though it will raise some eyebrows as to where it has been for the past 5 years. If it was made after January 1, 2001, I think you have a problem.
It pays to read through the definitions in Article 2 as well; particularly ?placing on the market?, and ?use?.


I?m not sure about the US.
Europe has its own rules on ODS gases that go further than the requirements of the Montreal Protocol. There may be some members in the States who could throw some light on the subject.

.
________
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LanzaCarlos
04-02-2006, 09:02 AM
Can someone in the States please respond to my request regarding critical dates for R22 equipment as I have still failed to pull anything of the web.

Toosh
04-02-2006, 10:22 AM
http://www.r22.org/ hi this site may help you

LanzaCarlos
04-02-2006, 12:41 PM
Unfortunately there is no info on implementation dates etc, only on legal requirements to purchase R22

Argus
04-02-2006, 03:12 PM
R 22 is a HCFC, therefore an Ozone depleter. It is there for covered by the Montreal Protocol

Most countries in the world, with a very few exceptions, have signed up to the Montreal Protocol. Developed nations agreed voluntary limits, though in some places these are minimum requirements. The United States certainly has signed the treaty, so as a start have a look at the restrictions on HCFCs in the MP, including the latest amendments. This will give you the minimum obligations under the treaty. Developing nations under Article 5 have their own quotas.

Next, you need to ask if the US has imposed more stringent restrictions on HCFCs, which I think is the basis of your question. The EU 25 certainly has and we know quite a lot about that.

To my way of thinking it is unlikely that individual states within the US will have acted unilaterally to restrict HCFCs further than the MP, because the MP is an international treaty, but they may have done. That would be a point of US law and we?d need a lawyer to answer that one.

I think that the Environmental Protection Agency polices these industrial gases in the US, so why not have a look at their web site.

We have lots of US members who may know more, USiceman, for example knows a great deal, he is a committed Ammonian, but worth talking to as he probably knows more about this aspect of legislation in the US than we do.

.
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US Iceman
05-02-2006, 04:47 AM
Sorry for not replying sooner. A little busy on this side of the pond. I will provide the links for the information for your review.

To start with I would like to post some information on what is required for compliance.
This provides some insight on the requirements.
http://www.chemalliance.org/Columns/Regulatory/4_20_99.asp

Some of the leak checking requirements:
http://www.epa.gov/Compliance/resources/publications/assistance/sectors/guidance.pdf

Here is a link for the scheduled phase out of HCFC's:
http://www.epa.gov/spdpublc/title6/phaseout/hcfc.html

Some questions and answers:
http://www.epa.gov/spdpublc/title6/phaseout/hcfcallowallocat.html

The second page of this provides some additional information:
http://www.epa.gov/spdpublc/title6/phaseout/OAR-2003-0130-0168.pdf

This one provides some details on phaseout of HCFC's:
http://www.epa.gov/spdpublc/title6/phaseout/HCFC_Report.pdf

The rules and regulations:
http://www.epa.gov/spdpublc/title6/index.html

And, last but not the least a complete overview of the regulations:
http://www.epa.gov/spdpublc/title6/overview.html

This should provide the information requested with some additional background info.

As you can see from this sampling we have no shortage of red tape on our side either.

All technicians have to be licensed to purchase these refrigerants. All refrigerants must be recovered or recycled. And one last important item. Anyone can be turned in to the EPA for non-licensed use. The whistle blower can get up to $10,000 USD for reporting the incident. How's that for incentive?

After reading all of this, ammonia looks pretty simple in comparison.

Andy
05-02-2006, 07:47 PM
Hi Iceman:)
so R22 is not yet banned in the Us for new systems, just tied up in red tape.

On the subject why do Americans love R134a, can't figuire it:confused:

Kind Regards. Andy:)

US Iceman
05-02-2006, 09:16 PM
Hi Andy,

To my knowledge R-22 is not banned yet, but the manufacturers are beginning to use the "new" refrigerants. I think the phaseout date for new equipment is 2010, so we do have a few more years to go.

As to your other question, I have no idea about the use of R-134a. When all of this phaseout and licensing stuff started back in the early 90's I had already switched to working solely on ammonia systems and other refrigerants.

In my opinion the governments should have phased out the CFC's and left the reasonable HCFC's alone. All of these blends and special oils has got to be a nightmare of a problem to deal with.

Andy
05-02-2006, 10:47 PM
Hi Iceman:)
water chillers. Any chiller that I get a quote for is R134a, that is the chemical sites that won,t use Ammonia as a refrigerant, but are content to use it in there process.
Dunham and Bush are a prime example, R22 and R134a only.
I am after a a R410a option, I have made some progress. Carrier and Sabroe make them.
Ideally I would like R410a on Turbocor compressors, but that is a long way off:(

Kind Regards. Andy:)

Rob S
06-02-2006, 03:37 AM
I know alot of guys who can't stand 134a at all. Me included.

Some of the manufactures are going with only 404A MT/LT and 410A HT now. Only a few are sticking with 134a in small applications.

R410a is a great refrigerant. Bit lower compression ratio and around 15% more capacity. Haven't got to use it in any large units yet. But they're coming out soon.

LanzaCarlos
06-02-2006, 09:24 AM
Hi US Iceman & Andy,

Thanks for the info, all of which I have glanced through and some of which I have read carefully. Clearly we are not alone in red tape here in Europe, the States has certainly got plenty!

However my summary (maybe unfairly) of the info is:

(a) The USA is very much concerned with ensuring continuing supplies of R22 for as long as it suits in order to ensure minimum cost to their economy.

(b) The ultimate new equipment phase out date of 2010 is actually extended, according to one of the reports I just read, until 2020 provided that the kit is imported and not manufactured in the States.

The latter seems somewhat strange and reminds me of the European phaseout of "dirty" chemicals and processes some twenty or so years ago when we simply shipped a lot of our "dirty" processes out to the developing world where life and the environement were valued less. We then claimed to have cleaned up our industry!

Ok, maybe I'm getting cynical and it may not be that way today but nevertheless for Aircon it seems the States has kept the door open until 2020, maybe only as a last resort but clearly they still have some time to go before it will become illegal to use R22 in new equipment (someone please correct me if I'm wrong)

In contrast in Europe it is my understanding, according to earlier postings, that the use of R22 in new equipment ceased in 2002 except for reversible domestic split A/c - HP systems which had until 2004 to make the changeover.

Interesting how the same Montreal Protocol is interpreted so differently!

Here in Lanzarote where all aircon is imported from somewhere we have a fair chunk that has come from the States and even though new much of it still uses R22 so what is our position on imports?

Regards, LanzaCarlos

airefresco
14-02-2006, 10:44 AM
@lanzacarlos

Where can you buy stuff on R22 in Lanza. Everything we have bought recently has been R407c or R410a.

LanzaCarlos
14-02-2006, 11:13 AM
I did not actually buy the R22, I only paid for it but I understand it is available to order from the specialist Aircon "Ferreteria" in Arrecife.

Regards, LanzaCarlos

PS - Airefresco, I'm sorry not to have yet replied to your private message but I have been having big problems with my ADSL & telephone line, sometimes getting only 10 - 15 minutes a day actual connection time. The whole lot went down yesterday (again) but after playing hell I got it back surprisingly quickly and, fingers crossed, the ADSL is actually working at full speed for only the third or so time in two years!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

We shall see!!!!!!!!!!!! You know Lanzarote & Telefonica!!!!!!!

Regards, LanzaCarlos

airefresco
16-02-2006, 06:46 PM
I know what you mean. My connection at home has not worked since last week, when we had the bad weather.

Regards
Paul

Josip
17-02-2006, 02:56 PM
Sorry for not replying sooner. A little busy on this side of the pond. I will provide the links for the information for your review.

As you can see from this sampling we have no shortage of red tape on our side either.

All technicians have to be licensed to purchase these refrigerants. All refrigerants must be recovered or recycled. And one last important item. Anyone can be turned in to the EPA for non-licensed use. The whistle blower can get up to $10,000 USD for reporting the incident. How's that for incentive?

After reading all of this, ammonia looks pretty simple in comparison.

Agree with you US Iceman. We have to use ammonia as much as possible. Following all safety rules for ammonia (we have to follow the rules always) it is not dangerous to use it.

It is natural, it is cheap....:) YES, but also

it is toxic, it is dangerous, YES :(

In another hand, taking a hot water shower without care you can burn your skin or kild yourself, but thanks to that water it was possible to start with life on our planet.

Remember house hold ammonia absorbtion fridges capable to run for decades:)

US Iceman
18-02-2006, 04:53 AM
Remember house hold ammonia absorption fridges capable to run for decades

I have seen these too.

Very easy to fix. Replace the heater or gas burner (depending on which one you have),

or,

turn them upside down for several days!

That is the only thing I have ever had to do on the few I've seen.