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JoeP88
12-03-2013, 08:30 PM
Hi there.

I was wondering if anyone had any information on what qualifications one would need to sign off their own electrical work residentially and commerically.
I've been told so many different things by numerous electicians, and found different answers all over the net. Any clarity on this subject would me much appreciated.

Thanks Joe

frank
12-03-2013, 08:46 PM
As a minimum, I would suggest, in the UK, you would need to have 17th edition and 2391 testing and inspection.
Without those, I don't see how you could prove to a Court of Law that you were Competent.

If you have these qual's, you can easily get Part P registered for domestic work, although it would be for limited work, i.e. new circuits, as opposed to re-wires and CU changes.

chilliwilly
13-03-2013, 12:03 AM
Actually you don't need any qualifications for general electrical work or a licence falling within voltage bands of 1000v AC and 1500v DC or there abouts. Above them voltages you need to be assessed and licenced. The domestic/residential work that comes under the scope of part "P", will need to be notified to the building control of the area council and will cost roughly about 250.00 and covers around 5000.00 worth of work backed by a 6 year bonding guarantee for any non compliances or departures found by third parties carrying work on the property.

But you don't need to be qualified or licenced. You just need an understanding of the requirements of the 17th edition, how to fill in an electrical installation and minor works certificate, and how to carry out the essential tests required to sign off a job. That way you will have proof in the unlikely event of a court hearing arising from any losses caused from an installation that you worked on. Offering you a stronger defence that you are competent. And that you carried out the design and verification, construction, and inspection and testing of the installation or alteration of an existing circuit noting any departures from the regulations that you have found. DIY electrical work that does and doesn't fall within the scope of part "P" still goes on and doesn't get notified. This doesn't actually mean its dangerous, it just means it doesn't comply with building regulations.

I know an electrician who's been at it for 50 years or more and never qualified, and was summoned to court following a complaint from a customer regarding a shower install that they were getting shocks from, due to there being no main earth in the property or equipotential bonding to pipe work. And he clearly hadn't carried out an R1+R2 test plus a ZE and an insulation test (earth loop). He was only fined 300.00 for neglegence and not complying to the E.A.W.R; plus costs. This was actually cheaper than joining a part "P" scheme? And he still carries on with no membership and not notifying jobs.

Ideally you would be better off with the 17th edition basic qualification to enable you to join a domestic installer scheme by one of the providers such as the NICEIC, ECA, NAPPIT, CORGI, and a few others. Then it won't cost 250.00 to change a light fitting in a bathroom on top of the job labour. Just the small cost of notifying the building control dept via an online system that isn't worth charging your customer for. Some of the schemes require you to do the 17th edition 2391 inspection and testing.

Why on earth do you want to be an electrician any way? Leave it to the pre Maddonas to talk their fanny.

JoeP88
13-03-2013, 07:05 PM
Thank you chilliwilly for such a detailed response much appreciated.
I am looking into getting my 17th edition at the moment.
As for wanting to be a cable jockey I certainly don't, however as I'm starting to do more private work (majorly split air conditioning) installations it would be nice to able to sign off my own supplies rather than do all the hard work and then pay an electrician to "sign it off".
There just seems to be so many holes in what qualifications are needed and no easy way to find the answers, so thanks again.

frank
13-03-2013, 08:16 PM
Having just the 17th Edition Bs7671 - 2011 won't enable you to assess if the installation you are connecting to is able to safely accept your additional circuit.
There is more to electrics than being able to understand and read the 'Green Book'

Frikkie
13-03-2013, 09:03 PM
Actually you don't need any qualifications for general electrical work or a licence falling within voltage bands of 1000v AC and 1500v DC or there abouts.......

........But you don't need to be qualified or licenced. You just need an understanding of the requirements of the 17th edition, how to fill in an electrical installation and minor works certificate, and how to carry out the essential tests required to sign off a job.........

......DIY electrical work that does and doesn't fall within the scope of part "P" still goes on and doesn't get notified.........

I know an electrician who's been at it for 50 years or more and never qualified.......He was only fined 300.00 for neglegence and not complying to the E.A.W.R; plus costs.......

I can't believe you can make electrical installs without qualifications and a registration in England. I thought you worked with a system more advanced, I'm surprised!!

JoeP88
13-03-2013, 10:21 PM
Having just the 17th Edition Bs7671 - 2011 won't enable you to assess if the installation you are connecting to is able to safely accept your additional circuit.
There is more to electrics than being able to understand and read the 'Green Book'

I understand this. And have a good working knowledge of electrics however not the legislation. 17th edition is a starting point I'm also trying to book in a test and inspection course. I'm just trying to get an answer on exactly the qualifications needed to legally carry out and sign of an installation.

chilliwilly
14-03-2013, 11:15 PM
Yes I couldn't agree with you more.

chilliwilly
15-03-2013, 12:30 AM
I understand this. And have a good working knowledge of electrics however not the legislation. 17th edition is a starting point I'm also trying to book in a test and inspection course. I'm just trying to get an answer on exactly the qualifications needed to legally carry out and sign of an installation.

The legislation only covers the part "P" aspect, and as previously stated you don't have to be qualified or part "P" registered. But if your not you won't be comptetive. Like Frank says having just the 17th edition is only a guide and doesn't really prove true competency. But will allow you to join many of the part "P" organisations.

The amount of 1 and 2 week wonders that are now in business and are carrying out full scope electrical work that falls under the part "P" banner is frightening. And the fact that an employed electrician who may work alone, or run jobs in charge of 50 sparkies, can't even change a light fitting in their bathroom without notifying the council building control.

The testing and inspection course will be beneficial to you, but you will still come up against obstacles that will stop you in your tracks regarding a minor works situation.

On a new circuit, a visual will indicate any departures that may be present on the installation, will help you make your customer aware of what is required to elminate any code 1s or 2s to bring the existing installation up to compliance, or at least note any code 3 departures on the certificate. Then installing the new circuit will be more straight forward and so will pricing for it.

A minor works can open a can of worms regarding unsatisfactory essential pre test results that will require attention to eliminate code 1s and 2s and preferably 3s and R.F.I.s. To make the circuit as if it has just been installed. If the tests aren't performed before you start then it will be paralasys by analasys, as it may when you perform them before you start.

Getting your customer to agree for you to pre test and pay you for your time, only for you to give them the bad news of the attention that may be required to enable the work to be carried out. Plus the visual on the possibillity of departures on the exisitng installation that will need attention, will make pricing very difficult.

You could tell them if they give you the job you will deduct the charge, but if they don't you will still need paying for your time. That's when it can get stickey.

chilliwilly
15-03-2013, 12:38 AM
Having just the 17th Edition Bs7671 - 2011 won't enable you to assess if the installation you are connecting to is able to safely accept your additional circuit.
There is more to electrics than being able to understand and read the 'Green Book'


Yes I couldn't agree with you more.

Digressing from the thread.

Since the last ammendment 2011, classification departure codes 1, 2, 3, and 4 have now been revised, and a Periodic Inspection Report is now called an Electrical Installation Condition Report. Code 1 is now "immediately dangerous requires immediate attention," code 2 is "potentially dangerous requires urgent attention," code 3 is "requires improvement," and code 4 no longer exists. It has been replaced with F.I.R. "Further Investigation Required," but not always neccessary or available for comment on some types of report depending on who prints them.

Now when changing a consumer unit following a E.I.C.R; only codes 1 & 2 that would constitute an unsatisfactory report, need to be remedied. Codes 3 and F.I.R. can be left unremedied and noted on the electrical installation certificate, something that was a grey area within the scope of the 16th edition. But sometimes appeared on the front page of certificates, but organisations like the NICEIC didn't recognise it and were nervous about seeing it on their endorsed certificates despite having a section for it on the first page. Where as now its embraced due to the grey area now in black and white.

Even the departure of RCD protection on circuits buried within the fabric of the buildings at depths less than 50mm/2" with no earthed metallic protection are classified as code 3. But where the circuit feeds special locations such as bathrooms, will be classified as code 2 and will need to be remedied before fitting the consumer unit and or extending the circuit. Along with no main earth or equipotential or supplementary bonding, or connectors not enclosed etc.

I always said that I wouldn't undertake electrical work on general lighting and power any more due to the amount of politics involved and the paralasys by analasys situation that always occured especially when extending an existing circuit. But recently I carried out a E.I.C.R; for an old customer of mine at his home, and to both our delight, the sockets that are only an inch above the floor on the skirting board, can be left and classified as a code 3 and noted as a departure on the certificate. He won't need to redecorate after I have fit the new board.

Because of the 2011 ammendment, I am even considering re joining the NICEIC after the ammendment of the regulations that now permit code 3 departures to be noted on certificates to . And then like joe p88, I will be able to wire my own feeds to splits should I start getting busy with conservatory air con. Instead of just signing the certificate for design and verification and testing, and construction done by a domestic part "P" installer, who's nervous about the ommision of RCDs on circuits feeding equipment outdoors on circuits of 40 amps plus.

But I still don't want to be a sparky any more.

frank
15-03-2013, 08:42 AM
Good post Chilliwilly....unfortunately, I got the following message when 'trying to give it to you' lol
You must spread some Reputation around before giving it to chilliwilly again.