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Tesla
18-02-2013, 10:23 AM
Thinking of the likes of turbocor, Train and Computer Fans using magnetic bearings. Why are we not using it for HVAC Fans? There is plenty of data on this technology and has been around for more than 20 years.
My thoughts are if you could imagine a bicycle wheel, take out all the spokes and use the rim as the Rotor. Well we would probably need two rims to help maintain the balance. Each Rim would need two Stators to act as Thrust Bearings.
This would give us a disc or cylinder Motor with electromagnetic bearings. A controller would control the induction and reluctance of each Stator. Basically Motor with a big hole in the middle of it.
When I look at fluid flow in Principles of Refrigeration I see a diagram showing fluid velocities within a tube and the greatest flow is in the middle. Hence the reason for the Holy Motor. Why would we stick a big fat motor smack in the middle of the greatest flow creating maximum friction on the flow.

Then we can get to designing a more efficient fan blade/impeller. The idea here is to take fluid from the inlet at peripheral of tube and direct it to the centre of the outlet. Using centripetal force as opposed to centrif force the way nature does it.
These ideas come from reading up on history of Tesla and Schauberger. I took this photo of one of Tesla's Motors at the Tesla Museum.
10080
What are you thoughts on this one? Crack pot or some valid points.

Frikkie
18-02-2013, 08:21 PM
Why would we stick a big fat motor smack in the middle of the greatest flow creating maximum friction on the flow.
So it stays nice and cool? I agree they could make pad mounted motors more aerodynamic though.

I'm not really understanding the motor you describe, it sounds a bit like some type of hybrid linear motor where the rotor is held on the magnetic field of the stator and is friction free but one that's been made into a circle.

Tesla
18-02-2013, 08:35 PM
Hi Frikkie
Thanks for your input. Apart from the cooling - which could be a problem, as you wrote it is like a hybrid linear motor or a circle mag lev train motor with no shaft or bearings. If this motor can be built the applications are many. The magnetic bearing technology is well proven but not developed for this form I have described. there are a few clips on youtube showing some parts of the motor working but they have a form of bearing and a shaft which is what I would like to remove.

al
18-02-2013, 09:09 PM
What about the Dyson air blade fans? meant to be pretty powerful (but noisy), no impeller to trap fingers in either, removes need for fan guards, could make for some innovative changes to evaporator shapes/design.

al

r.bartlett
18-02-2013, 09:51 PM
What about the Dyson air blade fans? meant to be pretty powerful (but noisy), no impeller to trap fingers in either, removes need for fan guards, could make for some innovative changes to evaporator shapes/design.

al

which was actually invented by Toshiba..

al
19-02-2013, 12:15 AM
Sorry Richard, i mixed up the hand dryer with this yoke: http://www.dyson.ie/fans/heaters.asp

al

Tesla
19-02-2013, 12:30 AM
Exactly where I'm going with this Al. The applications of such a motor in our field and others are so great. The shapes of AHUs, evaps etc are in the caves as to say. They should be round for a start. Must go back to class.

Magoo
19-02-2013, 02:14 AM
Maglev trains are the way of the future, capital intensive but super fast. China has recently commissioned a zip zap rail connect between somewhere and an airport, super fast. Shanghi I think. Passengers safety unknown. Could end up walking around like zombies, but get there quick..., dah.

r.bartlett
19-02-2013, 05:39 AM
Sorry Richard, i mixed up the hand dryer with this yoke: http://www.dyson.ie/fans/heaters.asp

al
Yes i guesed you did, which is why I posted the Tosh reference. They invented the bladeless fan not Dyson


Dyson took their chance and perfected the bladeless air multiplier (http://www.spemall.com/Bladeless-Fan_c.html), applied for Dyson patent. And someone also said Dyson fan is not novelty, and he can’t patent an invention that has already been invented even if it has expired after 20 years. Because Toshiba invented the first bladeless fan in 1981 (Tokyo Shibaura patent 1981) .

r.bartlett
19-02-2013, 05:58 AM
Maglev trains are the way of the future, capital intensive but super fast. China has recently commissioned a zip zap rail connect between somewhere and an airport, super fast. Shanghi I think. Passengers safety unknown. Could end up walking around like zombies, but get there quick..., dah.

The key to it's future is getting a suprconductor to work at room temp..

Tesla
19-02-2013, 07:33 AM
Hi Magoo good points. Capitol expensive but when we consider that these things may not wear out for an extremely long time and be more efficient? It would have a life cycle cost much less than the conventional motors used today. In fact motors have not changed too much in the last 100 years. I am thinking it may take someone like John Bedini to help build one considering he is considered a bit of an expert around the subject of motors and magnets. I started this idea from another idea (an application) but proven over a 100 years ago - I'll keep that one under my hat for now. Then I thought of the fluid flow improvements of removing the friction from the centre flow for say an AHU or heat exchange coil of any description for that matter. But for this post I would like to focus on the motor its self. When I was first learning about motors at Petone Tech I saw a motor windings with a tin can as the rotor that spun and this is what it's about.
Super conduction would be nice but I know we can do it with conventional materials like permanent magnet motor which are much smaller than the main ones we use.
I am quite excited about it and frustrated that I don't have the resources to build it (yet). There are a few Tesla patents to use on it to keep it balanced - on the perifial using two stators where when it becomes a little unbalanced one coil would push and the other would pull which would balance the field and the energy used should not increase much.
i should imagine some might have similar ideas or even working on a proto type of similar and may not wish to contribute. The applications could make the Turbocor obsolete are a possiblity. I did think of the Turbocor concept before it was built but others told me it was a rubbish idea. Just had to get this one out there as there are so many other ideas bombarding my brain it's hard to focus sometimes. More input from the forum would be much appreciated.
I do like the Dyson/Toshiba concept where he built a prototype from cardboard (probably toilet rolls lol)

frank
19-02-2013, 08:48 AM
Have Hitachi beaten you to it? http://www.hitachi.com/New/cnews/120411.html

Tesla
19-02-2013, 09:41 AM
Awesome thanks Frank
No they have not beaten me to it they have just used a fraction of what I am talking about. My motor which I am calling the "Holy Motor" is quite different. My concept is there is a whooping big hole in the middle of it - so if we had a motor with an outside diameter of around 500mm there would be an unobstructed hole in the middle of around 340mm (to be calculated). There would be four rotors (two pairs), two stators and no shaft just an empty cylinder. Where is financial backing (Gena Rinehart) when you need it. This could be a repeat of the Turbocor sold for a dime overseas. it's not just the motor which I think is awesome by its self it's the applications that the Holy Motor can do what the other motors can not do. there are a few little tricks which I have left out which will give the efficiency needed.
I had better get back to my TAE course homework, but these ideas are making it hard to focus.

frank
19-02-2013, 08:50 PM
I recall some years ago that a Hi-Fi manufacturer invented a magnetic drive for the turntable, thereby reducing the noise generated by the belt drive....all in the quest for the perfect sound.

Maybe this idea could be adapted to suit your thinking..http://www.brinkmann-audio.de/inhalt/en/whitepaper/bardo.pdf

Magoo
20-02-2013, 12:26 AM
Hi Tesla, super conductors are good at super negative temps, mainly for switching purposes. But with static mags in a vacuum is another story. Groups of aligned poles could get super fast field speeds, fan loadings would create heat in mags. Just thinking out load.
With the maglev train systems the only resistance to drive is AIR gap as train levertates between mags as power is applied to fields. From memory the Germans got a trial train up to or around 400 kms., snap quick.

Tesla
20-02-2013, 08:33 AM
Thanks Frank
You are taking me back more than ten years when I had to repair some Graff hi speed motors on cassette tape recorders which had the same principle.
Magoo you are reading my mind and I was thinking on whether or not to keep parts of it a secret so as an investor might help build it and get it to market. The super conductivity would be working on ultra low temp refrigeration applications. Yes I am thinking the fields will need to be manipulated and I have ideas on how to do this. When we are talking about operating in a vacuum there will be an opportunity to manipulate the fields in such a way that plasma fields could be easily controlled but that is an application above and after the motor is proven to work. There was a maglev train in Guongshau China(spelling is shocking) when I was there a few years ago that had a few problems which went nearly as fast. It would be easy to use rear earth mags for the motor but due to the amount of motors that could be in demand we need to keep it simple at first with conventional materials for mass production which is cost effective.
I have tried several times to give reps for your posts but I must spread them around first so here is a few smileys :):)
Really appreciate the posts so far so thanks very much - lets keep it going to build on.
I tried to contact John Bedini with little success so far, I shall persevere.

mad fridgie
20-02-2013, 09:23 PM
A bit late into this one, the dyson (not knocking it, because they look great), where and how does the original air stream come from?

Is not just a fan blade (of some sort) mounted in the bottom

Tesla
21-02-2013, 07:57 AM
Of course Mad (good to see you) there needs to be a fan blade or impeller somewhere I'm sure. But there are electrostatic wind machines out there which don't use a blade - not very efficient.
I was just checking out the Arduino post and searched for PID loop in software and found a massive amount of code for controlling permanent magnet motors - very cool.
So no obvious No's for the motor working yet and I am asking for ideas as to the best way to build a prototype motor. Just a basic cheap one to demonstrate that is works. I don't think the Dyson toilet roll cardboard will be sufficient but perhaps a tin can with some magnets and wire for coils?? Any Ideas or experience?