PDA

View Full Version : C17 versus the modern PCB



DTLarca
13-02-2013, 08:36 PM
When I started in the industry, back in 1985, a mini split sold by our company comprised, more or less, of:

Condenser coil, simple expansion device and evaporator coil.
Compressor with Starting Relay and capacitors.
Fixed-speed condenser fan motor.
Multi-speed evaporator fan motor.
C17 Thermostat.
Fan speed selector switch.

When a service call was called for all the motor windings were tested for continuity and insulation.

The fan motor's bearings could be easily tested by radial and axial play as well as rotational sound and resistance.

The compressor starting relay and capacitor were easy to diagnose as good or failed.
The compressor pumped or it did not - pretty much.

When an installing contractor bought a mini split they unhesitatingly accepted the burden of providing warranty labour - diagnostics and repair.

These days we have not just one PCB but often multiple PCB's.

We can check fuses for over current, varistors protecting for over-voltage (in turn blowing fuses). We can check thermistors and transducers and their connections. We can check rectification diodes and thyristors. We can check digital in-puts and out-puts.

But there are some faults that are now not easily discernible. We have those where our engineer on site is told by one of the dealer's techs that it is this PCB then their second tech says it is another PCB and a third says it is in fact yet something else. Our engineer then sometimes gives up and investigates on his own to find it was none of those suggested by the manufacturers techs.

There are those intermittent faults not caught by the operating software's overlay doing the system's self diagnostics.

It does not happen often. Maybe three times a year. But every so many months, when it does happen, I keep thinking I need to sit and start an article series on this matter in the magazines because it seems to me that it is no longer acceptable for the manufacturer to burden the installation contractor with these responsibilities.

I am now asking our engineer to word the job sheets explaining that since the problem with their unit lies somewhere extra to the limits of a basic electro-mechanical system we are not willing to suggest a remedy and are only willing to carry out the suppliers recommendations so long as the customer signs acceptance that we have, in no way, agreed nor disagreed, with the manufactures suggested next move and will expect to be paid for every parts change procedure the manufacturer from here on recommends.

We tell the customer the manufacturer has loaded the system with proprietary software and hardware in the form of PCB's but have not yet caught up with a diagnostics overlay capable of diagnostics, of some acceptable equivalence, as simple and as stupid as diagnosing an original C17 based mini split system - the manufacturer's use of these particular PCB's is, in this respect, premature - released before the necessary diagnostics overlay has become available.

If the customer has a problem with the costs they need to take it up with the manufacturer.

If the manufacturer wants to claim, to the end user, that the installation contractor must bare the burden then the manufacturer must show precisely what knowledge or skill the contractor is lacking. Since those problems I speak of cannot be discerned by either the contractor nor the manufacturer's techs the manufacturer would have failed, at this stage, to pass the buck.

install monkey
13-02-2013, 09:04 PM
it has become more of a mine field when it comes to fault finding, now with lev's sticking, pcb's not sending or recieving a pulsed signal, green flashy lights are not a gaurenteed way of identifying a faulty pcb, so whe u get a fault code referring to comms error,and you got power to the system,all switches ,fuses ok,interconnect wiring is fine then u quote for the repair,do you allow for an indoor,outdoor pcb and quote- i'll fit 1 and return the other if we dont need it- or order 1 pcb and prey thats the 1 and if not the customer hates you! had it on a daikin 5kw wall mt , u4 error, no green led flashin on indoor pcb, comms line ok, outdoor pcb givin out 70v dc outdoor leds flashing , quoted new indoor pcb- fitted it, turned out to be the more expensive 1 on the outdoor with the inverter circuit and ipm module, and techincal helpline can be misleading with information as they can only advise and run through the flow chart, used to get loads of call outs to old quialitair/myson units with the fuse wire blown because some numpty was too twitchy with the c17 stat, as they didnt have a 3 min delay on compressor start up

DTLarca
15-02-2013, 12:48 AM
I remember, back during my apprenticeship, in Durban, SA, working for APV Hall Ltd, us apprentices were sent to start-up a series of through-the-wall console units at a new office centre. One of the units had tripped because of exactly that - one of the main contractor's employees frequently switching the unit from cooling to heating and back again. When their project manager asked a very young me why the trip had occurred I explained the above. His reply was a very sturdy "Well, your units are very poorly designed - that is a fundamental error easily avoidable - I hope your company isn't expecting to get paid for these before this design flaw is put right!"

I agreed with him - I went back to office and spoke to the design engineers in Searle Bush's office, in the same building as ours, and told them the compressors need time delays.

Piston compressors on cap-tube systems like to wait for pressure equalisation - this alone is a big contributor to compressors stalling on start-up after recently stopping - something no longer a problem with scrolls since scrolls that cannot be started with partial scroll bypass or scroll disengagement actually require greater starting torque the more the pressures are equalised hence the motors having high starting torques regardless of designated application ranges.

Tesla
15-02-2013, 06:54 AM
I agree with you guys DTLarca and IM. I get really peeved off with all this proprietary software. There is no need for it apart from the manufacturer to squeeze more money out of us and our customers. BUT there have been advances with generic controllers. There is one I would like to point out as exceptional which is open source and cheap. That is the Arduino controller. This can be a very simple to very complex including wireless comms, IR temp sensors, USB, ethernet etc with up to 70 IO points per board (expandable). We can buy just what we need and replace components very cheaply like an 8 channel relay board for $16 and thermistors for much .less than a dollar. The software is Java or you could use a simpler language and write more code. Much of the code is written and free from libraries on the net. I had a fault on a split last year and a more experience tech helped me diagnose it, as mentioned above it needed three boards to be replaced which cost nearly the price of a new unit.
Some of these things are getting too complicated for one trade to repair. It was much simpler 20 years ago and the units lasted longer.