Manufacturers Over Brazing 1/4" Joints Causing Blockage

[DTLarca]

Has anyone else come across batches of VRV indoor units with 1/4" pipe retrictions and blockages occuring on account of poor manufacturer quality workmanship - over feeding of solder into joints such as where the LEV's and its strainers are concerned?

[still learning]

as yet we have not come accross this .
would you care to name the make and model.

[DTLarca]

Not yet, I would like to give the manufacturer chance to remedy the situation.

I will keep this thread up to date with developing info, though.

[still learning]

the reason i ask is i may have to fit one

[Startrek]

It must be chinese ive had two distributors blocked over!

[DTLarca]

I'm not sure if the units are assembled in China. I would have thought Japan.

Three units close in serial number suffered blockages.

They were removed from the walls, the LEV motors were also removed and then nitrogen at 30 bar pushed first from one end then from the other. We inferred from this that there was no dirt in the strainers.

The three units were replaced the next day.

The three new units were not performing either - though this time we had no computer connected to the system to check thermistor readings to judge if the symptoms were identical.

The replaced three were brought back to the office.

I cut one open to look at the LEV and two strainers. A joint at the LEV was blocked from solder overfeed.

The other two units were not checked by us - they were soon collected by the manufacturer.

It turned out today that one of the rotaries on each of the replacement units had been overlooked - setting that brought them all into action.

So my remaining questions are of the likes:

If a manufacturer knows of a batch problem of this sort - yet they ship the units out without warning - are they willing to admit that by implication they are happy that we will only find out after the installation is complete and commissioning has commenced. Do they understand the time and money that could be saved if we were warned to test the units for blockage before installation?

[al]

In general Marc i think they prefer to allow us to do the testing for them, if a manufacturer offers to replace a unit with no or very questions then this points to complicity, have had it with Hitachi on boards/compressors, it does depend on how much business you do with the supplier though.

al

[DTLarca]

If we buy a lintel and install it without exceeding its weight limit and yet it fails and the walls and floor above suffer damage then we will make a claim with the suppliers insurance. We would not merely phone the supplier and ask "Hey guys, could you send over another lintel under warranty - this puppy failed".

If we install wall mounted units to the point of commissioning, a few days before the hotel opens for business, only to find that we are not able to hand over 3 of the 20 or so rooms on account of AC failure, then of course no one can claim economic losses - the law has no formula for determining the limits of economic reach. But, there are other damages - there are the costs associated with returning to investigate the matter and then returning again to replace the 3 units. These are natural costs associated with remedying the system failings.

In the mean time we have another indoor unit, different in model, but from the same manufacturer, on another site, also with more than 20 indoor units, with a blockage, not caused by us, where we are able to hear the LEV driving open and closed. The blockage has to be on the LEV side because the unit does a small quantity of heating initially as the coil fills with hot gas. The problem could be mechanical with the LEV but it could also be another over soldered joint. We have eliminated our joints from the list of possibles. The customer will be paying his kitchen fitters nearly £2000.00 to disassemble the kitchen cabinets in this £16,000,000.00 house so that we can get to the indoor unit. We have spent 2 days on site already - trying to get at the LEV motor.

The damages I think we ought to claim for are those associated with remedying the situations which these systems have been caused to suffer on account of this manufacturer's multiple counts of negligence. I doubt anybody could claim for the likes of a kitchen cabinet's dis-assemblage - that is the customers bad luck, I expect - he chose to have the unit located there. But I believe we ought to be compensated for the natural time and expenses associated with remedying the system. The manufacturer it seems makes a choice based on its perception of risk - in this case the risk might have paid off overall but I believe we will be contributing to that fraction of the negative consequences of that calculated risk.

[monkey spanners]

Imagine if you ran it on heating till coil fills up with liquid, shut lev wait for it to go bang then sue for new kitchen...

Some video evidence of these sorts of problems, especially if it should find its way onto youtube or such can help get the manufacturer realise how serious a problem it is.

[install monkey]

if your d1 or similar you get a labour allowance from the manufacturer- £40 quid for a condenser swap or £15 for a pcb swap:)

[DTLarca]

Imagine if you ran it on heating till coil fills up with liquid, shut lev wait for it to go bang then sue for new kitchen...

Some video evidence of these sorts of problems, especially if it should find its way onto youtube or such can help get the manufacturer realise how serious a problem it is.

Though the unit would still be open on the other side of the coil.

I am looking at later this year churning out short industry related documentaries on my youtube channel. But this much - practising my right to freedom of speech - one of the many better reasons we war against fundamentalism - is enough for now - simply putting feelers out looking for anecdotes and thoughts for and against.

[DTLarca]

if your d1 or similar you get a labour allowance from the manufacturer- £40 quid for a condenser swap or £15 for a pcb swap:)

We have been D1 and whatever it is also with Mitsi for a few years now, don't know of any others, though I simply design plant rooms and general building services these days, H&C water services, UF Heating, Drainage, Pool Heating and so on so don't keep up much with what that is all about, being a D1. I can't remember when last I used a set of gauges and the other day it took me a few minutes to remember how to use my old multimeter. I don't think we have ever asked a supplier to pay anything toward any normal warranty works we have done.

But this particular matter has got nothing at all to do with warranty. This is a dead on arrival situation arising out of various areas of negligence.

[still learning]

this sounds like a high end home .
if the manufacturers of the ac are at fault , then imho .
they should foot the bill for dissmantling the kitchen.
there are only two manufacturers who we would spec for a high end home .
none of us want dead on arrival kit .
it looks bad for good installers and the supplier
faults in the manufacter of goods , imo , are just a cost cutting exersize .
and since 2008 some have slid to become almost rubbish.

[DTLarca]

The manufacturer seems also to be a little confused about my position.

One of their representatives, who has made an attempt to be helpful, emailed me saying:

"Can you please keep me in the loop on how you are getting on."

I replied:

"Haven’t been able to go back in yet.

It does seem unlikely now that we had 3 poor performing units of which at least one had a solder plugged joint from the factory yet still [the] new three units still have a problem because of ..."

It might only be next week when we get a chance to go back in. The recent saga has already put our other projects behind by 5 days in total and it will take a week or two of overtime to catch up before we can go spend a few more days on this matter."

Our engineer discovered that the new units don't fire up, late that evening, and we desperately need him to be elsewhere the next morning for a week or so. So the matter was put on complete hold with no more thought by us.

His reply in turn was:

"Can you please let me know when you are going back in I would like one of my engineers to assist in the diagnostics."

And so we let them know when we were going back. Especially since we had very good reason, both at the time and still considering things with hindsight, to believe there could also be over-soldering on these new units.

We did not ask the manufacturer to visit - they wanted to visit of their own volition.

I was going to visit site myself to check that indeed everything had been set according to how I had commissioned one of these systems myself back in 2007 which I had done without training but a lot of frustration trying to understand their damn English manuals written with poor translations from Japanese. I would have to have looked in storage for my copy of their technical manual where all my notes were recorded. In the end, being busy, and because the manufacturer were sending one of their own, I decided not to attend nor look for my notes.

From a recent email to me from them and from general discussions I am hearing of in the background it seems the manufacturer thinks we thought the new units definitely were, without a doubt, also over-soldered and that we demanded that they attend site as if we were "blaming them for the new units also not firing up" which is in fact to me just another example of "blunt or weak thinking skills" that seems to so often be practised by manufacturer representatives. We were only saying that to the best of our knowledge the new units probably have the same problem. Since, to the best of our knowledge, all the rotary switches in the new units had been set.

They say they will come to talk to us about this end of March - if I am not satisfied after that meeting that all has been put right in all dimensions then I will start a little documentary series on the matter on Youtube and will file a claim for the remedial costs associated with these issues.

In the mean time I am looking for other equipment suppliers - especially since it seems to me that these days there no longer is any such thing as a "Leading Brand".

Other up and coming manufacturers need to be given a chance. And if I cannot have manuals written in clear English and if the systems do not have full self diagnostics requiring me to buy "checkers" and sorts then, well, f*** it, I might as well resign to the fact that I have to go on equipment familiarity courses and so I will start first with the new up and coming competitors - or the first to show me their manuals and self diagnostics are good enough to forgo the need for substitution familiarisation courses.