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View Full Version : Is inverter air con cheaper to run than GCH? In depth discussion...



back2space
06-02-2013, 03:55 AM
I had my multi split LG inverter air con system installed in my new house in May last year. House is a 1930's end of terrace. Consists of a 9.38kw (FM25AH UE1) heating outdoor unit and 2 x 3.9kw (LIBERO range) (lounge & kitchen) & 2 x 2.1kw (LIBERO rang) (bedrooms) indoor wall mount units purposely oversized so the units can be run constantly in low fan speed. The system is used for cooling in the summer and heating in the winter.

The house also has a GCH system fitted radiators and combi boiler etc. Boiler approx 6 years old manufactured by Glow Worm & is 30kw in capacity.

Having done some tests to see which is cheaper this winter by trying to compare similar temperature weeks one week running GCH then one week running the air con system it appears that it is cheaper to run the GCH. The house gets upto temp quicker by using the air con system but as its warm air you dont get that nice radiant affect you get with radiators which seem to provide a more comfortable even heat and being under the windows they keep the room warmer and at a more consistant temp.

I can keep the flow temp of the rads down on the gas boiler to about 50C and the house maintains about 21C downstairs (TRVS open fully) and about 19C upstairs with the TRVs set lower as dont like it hot in bedrooms. With the air con system we have to have a set point of 22/23C in the downstairs rooms to compensate for the cooler areas near windows where the radiators normally stop any cool draughts from the windows. Bedrooms still set at 19C on the controllers the same as with the GCH. I found that with higher flow temps on the boiler to get the rooms upto temp quicker rooms end up feel stuffy even though TRVs are used reaction times are too slow so the rooms overheat when the TRV shuts off. So a lower flow temp means the boiler is just ticking over and the rooms dont tend to overheat but are slower to warm up but sometimes I turn the boiler up to get the house upto temp then reduce it right down. The air con doesnt even struggle on the colder days. Maybe I bump the fan speeds up a bit or start the upstairs units later once downstairs is close to set temp. When only one indoor unit is running there is a limit to what the outdoor unit can ramp down to so its usually best to have all 4 indoors running for max efficiency as the outdoor unit will still ramp down to the lowest setting and room temps are maintained. A multi unit is designed to run multiple units at the same time and not just one unit otherwise it becomes inefficient.

Cost of using air con per week during period (05th Nov - 24th Dec) ranges between £19-£26 (total elec usage for the house). Cost of using GCH per week during period (31st Dec - 4th Feb) is between £12-£19. Even when just using the air con system at temps below 5C outside I was still finding that I had to use the GCH radiator in the bathroom and the bottom of the stairs otherwise those areas were cold. This was costing £6-£8 per week on gas including the hot water rather than just the £4 for hot water. Over the summer gas usage is just for hot water and is approx £2-£3 per week, so about £2-£4 gets added on top if using the boiler to heat two radiators when using the air con system bringing the total to between £6-£8 for the week on gas alone.

On the weeks where GCH only was used my total electric consumption for the week cost between £10 & £13 as we have a tumble dryer also so some weeks this was used more. Its confused me with all the figures so maybe you can make more sense of the details I have profided. I have also attached my readings for the weeks so you can see roughly what I am using on the weeks without air con and with weeks of just using 2 radiators for the GCH. Above in bold are the dates I used air con and GCH so you can see from the attachments costs for those weeks.

Electric
http://i45.tinypic.com/1127p94.jpg

Gas
http://i49.tinypic.com/k4zgpi.jpg

There is much debate on if Air Con is cheaper to use for heating than GCH. Looking forward to your views. What do you think based on the data I have provided taking into account usage of electricity without the air con and usage of electric with air con etc.

Kind Regards
Richard.

install monkey
06-02-2013, 08:25 PM
what if you run both- use the gas central heating for your warmth and use the air con set on low fan to circulate the stratified heat at ceiling height to circulate the air thus your room stat will cut out quicker, having a flow temp of 50deg will just mean ur boiler will run for longer to reach the room stat setpoint, might be worth seeing the running costs of keeping ur heating on 24hours and just cycling on stat instead of the heavy loading on start up.
cheapest option is to buy ur misses a balaclava and mittens and take the gas valve to work with you!-mega savings!:D

The Viking
06-02-2013, 08:31 PM
And there you have found the abnormality in energy pricing here in UK.

If you look at your chart you are paying 11.72p / kWh for your electricity and only 4p / kWh for your gas.
This means that even huge savings on energy used will not save you money in your pocket.

If your boiler run on oil instead of gas there would be a completely different result.

An the temperature differences you are experiencing...
Your house was designed around a wet radiator system, allowing for shortcuts to be made. If you go to a cold country (think Norway/Sweden/Canada) and visit a house built around ASHPs you will see the difference.

:cool:

.

back2space
06-02-2013, 10:02 PM
An the temperature differences you are experiencing...
Your house was designed around a wet radiator system, allowing for shortcuts to be made. If you go to a cold country (think Norway/Sweden/Canada) and visit a house built around ASHPs you will see the difference.
.


I guess they are toasty warm?

back2space
06-02-2013, 10:09 PM
what if you run both- use the gas central heating for your warmth and use the air con set on low fan to circulate the stratified heat at ceiling height to circulate the air thus your room stat will cut out quicker, having a flow temp of 50deg will just mean ur boiler will run for longer to reach the room stat setpoint, might be worth seeing the running costs of keeping ur heating on 24hours and just cycling on stat instead of the heavy loading on start up.
cheapest option is to buy ur misses a balaclava and mittens and take the gas valve to work with you!-mega savings!:D

If the fan is set to low the problem I have then is draughts as to get the warm air down you would have to point the louvres down.

I am thinking of getting a heat miser thermostat where you can set different temps for during the day. But then again people say it costs more to have the heating on all the time. The house doesnt really drop below 18C but to get upto 21/22C from 18c with a low flow temp takes about 3/4 hours whereas once upto temp to maintain 21/22C boiler can be set to about 45/50C.

Surely having a low flow temp is better to have it cycling on the stat as thats what inverters do they back right down to avoid going off at thermostat so they just maintain set point?

install monkey
06-02-2013, 10:28 PM
them heatmister stats- u can get the wifi 1 that you can set via an app on a modern phone- (no product placement!! haha) so you can adjust the heating - ie turn it down when the mrs cranks it up.
any digital stat will have a deadband of 1 deg will be more accurate than the old fashioned room stats with the 2 deg diff via a shunt restistor- i fitted a rf stat to my combi,and when it gets near setpoint it reduces the flow to 45deg till it reaches setpoint,also it moniters how long it took to heat up so if outside is colder then it can compensate for this- resulting in not having the boiler start up at 6am everyday. top tip for radiators- get ofn nitrogen and a gaugeline and blast the fluff out the back of em-more efficient- (unless theyre sludged up like monkeyspanners haha) but beware of suffocation as nitrogen is a silent killer- refer to grizzlys post of this can kill you!

bear in mind too that radiators are designed for 70-80deg flow and trv will reduce flow when near setpoint-
if you dont like running ac in fan only- them jungle fans are ok, no strong breeze off them but make sure ur kids dont throw things at the it when its running - theyre a bugger to try and rebalance.
also bear in mind heatpumps become less efficient the lower the ambient,too.

did u fit them cheap timers to ur lg or go for posh hard wired controllers??

back2space
06-02-2013, 11:01 PM
All radiators are clean behind as when moved in were covered in fluff. The downstairs TRVs apart from the bedrooms are shot, they are either on or off no inbetween. If I put it to 2/3 position it still makes the room over heat so I have to turn the rad off or the thermostat off. Right job to replace as well as means draining the system and stuff as might as well replace all the valves at same time.

I bought posh hard wires controllers which came to £200 and they not being used at the moment. Not sure of direction to go in lol

install monkey
06-02-2013, 11:13 PM
have u balanced the rads- with trv in full on position have the balancing valve shut and open slowly( with flow temp of 70-80 deg) u need to get 19deg td between flow and return- u can now get digital trv's which are more accurate.
also with a terraced- usually they have high ceilings- maybe fit a bulkhead ceiling , enables you to fit led spotlights- reducing the volume of the room to make it warmer- carpeted floors make the home feel warmer,
my gas usuage for just a AA rated combi with no dhw cylinder is 130quid for 10 months- heating is on 7,30-10.30 7 days, in a 3 bed semi with very little loft insulation- bills higher as 3kw rad in conservatory and a frost stat in there set to maintain 8 deg .

with your post are u just curious of reducing ur energy use or one of them theorys that leave u pondering?

back2space
07-02-2013, 12:15 AM
£130 on gas per month for 10 months or is that £130 total for 10months?

I think its one of those theories that leaves me pondering. I prefer the heat from the air con I prefer warm air as for example tonight but the air con on just to warm the kitchen up as the rads in the house apart from the luonge are all single panelled & not double and to get them replaced will cost a fortune. The kitchen is always cold but to have a high flow temp doesnt make much difference. Only rooms that the singles are fine in are the 2 bedrooms as they are kept cool any are large panels for the room size. The kitchen has the same size radiator as the smallest bedroom yet the kitchen is the width of the house whereas the lounge as the double rad and is a large long radiator running length of the window.

Its a small house, 2 rooms downstairs (lounge and kitchen) then two bedrooms upstairs and the bathroom. There is no landing radiator just one at the bottom, usptairs is lovely and warm just the kitchen is cold with that undersized radiator. Wouldnt want a bulkhead ceiling as this would take away one of the features why I bought the house, It has full loft and wall insulation so its a warm house generally. House is all wooden floors other than stairs and landing but again house came like that and its really decent wooden flooring and I like it but the lounge I do have massive rugs down.

I think I need to take into account comfort levels as well. When I try with a higher flow temp gas usage did go up but kitchen was warmer I guess just the TRVS are the problem really.

I think next week I may try running the air con again and seeing what I come out with. Dont think its worth spending any more money on the TRVs when running the boiler at lower flow temp maintains the house at a warm temp just wish I had compensation sensor for my boiler (not available already checked for my model boiler) so that it would increase flow temp and learn the warm up times of the house. Then when approaching set temp back right down again.

Re balancing the radiators, they are all really hot anyway there is only 6 radiators in total when I moved in all the valves were fully open so I closed them down they are all open approx 1.5 turns on such a small system dont think balancing really works unless there are any problems with rads warming up.

install monkey
07-02-2013, 08:58 PM
130 quid for 10 months (13quid a month) not allowing for the last 2 months- can u swap the radiator in the kitchen for a lphw kick space heater- and stick a roomstat to stop the fan at 16-18 deg- or alternativly a bigger rad or a twin rad?
i found adding alcahol to your stomach makes u feel warmer too
or failing that thermals!!!:D

back2space
07-02-2013, 09:31 PM
Quotes for kitchen rad for double came back at approx £200.

install monkey
07-02-2013, 09:39 PM
does the company u work for have accounts with plumbers merchants- sometimes cheaper as a staff purchase order- you pay your company when the invoice comes in- just checked screwfix - other companys offer similar equipment! http://www.screwfix.com/c/heating-plumbing/700mm-double-radiators/cat3890004
Quotes for kitchen rad for double came back at approx £200.

back2space
07-02-2013, 09:53 PM
The price of the rad isn't the problem it's the cost of labour as I am not an installer etc and the pipes need altering to accommodate a double.

install monkey
07-02-2013, 10:03 PM
if u lock the mrs in the kitchen then the quicker she does the pots the more free heat she will generate, thus you can keep warm watchin the footy with a cold beer:D

back2space
07-02-2013, 10:16 PM
Can stick in the boiler cupboard!