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Rob White
19-07-2012, 04:18 PM
.

For those of you who work for larger companies,
When you carry out PPM's does your company have
a Method Statement or a Standard Opperating Procedure
regards the conducting of PPM's.

I have seen a lot of building facilities companies issuing
instructions for fitting gauges on Ac systems while doing the
yearly checks.

Do you fit gauges as a norm while carrying out checks on AC
systems?

I ask because if you do, the fitting of gauges to a working
system means that there must be a follow up visit within the
working month to prove the system is still gas tight!!

Even if the gauges were fitted as part of a PPM.

Plus there is a big argument on "within one month"

How would you define within one month?
Is the same day within one month?

Regards

Rob

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Luke.G
19-07-2012, 05:50 PM
no, gauges are not needed for a ppm, unless you suspect a issue you pick up on during the maintenance...
regarding the follow up, it doesnt state a extact time to carry out the re check for being gas tight...
obviously the maximum is half hour but i know the minimum is 30 minutes after.
often if we fix a leak and re charge etc, we wait half hour check pressures again and write a seperate sheet regarding fgas


thanks,
luke

Grizzly
19-07-2012, 06:07 PM
Hi Rob.
Those companies that talk the talk, may well advocate fitting of gauges.
But as you well know anyone with 2079, should be well aware many A/c units are charge critical.
Therefore as Luke implies best practice dictates, No gauges fitted to a system unless conditions make it necessary.
Many method statements may well be generically incorrect. However anyone with the correct training would know Different.
We adopt the maxim."If it ain't broke don't fix it!"
I suspect the majority on here do likewise.

Grizzly

The Viking
19-07-2012, 06:11 PM
I ask because if you do, the fitting of gauges to a working
system means that there must be a follow up visit within the
working month to prove the system is still gas tight!!

Rob,

Interesting thought.
One question springs to mind, where have you got it from that additional leak checks are required after a service manifold been used?

The only place I found on DEFRA's website that refer to leak check within a month is:



If a leak is found it must be repaired by appropriately qualified personnel. The repair must be retestedfor leakage within a month of the repair (the retest can be done immediately after the repair iscompleted providing the plant is back in service).

The official document can be found HERE
(http://www.defra.gov.uk/environment/quality/air/fgas/srac/)
To me, the fitting and removal of service manifolds to service ports by suitable qualified engineers does not constitute to a leak.
(And the obvious, it can be checked immediately as long as the system is working)

Or have you got any other information?

:cool:

.

The Viking
19-07-2012, 06:18 PM
And yes, I do agree with the others..

Why create job for jobs sake, or as the old bear said, "If it ain't broke don't fix it!"


:D

monkey spanners
19-07-2012, 06:37 PM
Think i was told you need to leak check where you fitted your gauges, and also the cap on the refrigerant cylinder if any refrigerant has been transfered!

There should have been a minimum time stated in the regs for the within one month leak test, i tend to go have a coffee and re test...

install monkey
19-07-2012, 07:54 PM
the risk and method statement is for the work to be carried out on that site , ie risks that are present, ie use of ladders,manual handling,good housekeeping,hotworks,electrical,roof work, then the severity-which is always high then the risk factor,which is always low as the total must be under a score of 6.

the method statement is stating -what you intend to do on the visit.

as for fitting gauges as viking says the retest can be carried out at the same time,as youve done a strength test to prove the system is sound, and the fgas sheet will show the pressure test date and any gas additions to the system.
as previously mentioned gauges are only fitted it there is concern over the system performance- i had a daikin 3.5kw wall mount-dripping water, cleared the drain line and tested it,poor airflow- brushed all the crap out of the fan scroll and then fired it up, air on 27deg air off 14deg-fitted gauges and suction pressure on 410a was 11 bar-condenser coil appeared clean but the fan was running full speed in an ambient of 15deg- inside of the cond coil was choked with crap- nitrogen blasted the coil now working great- then had to do an f gas sheet even though it only held 1kg gas,due to our gaff trying to become refcom elite- every system on site we look after,they want an fgas sheet so they can plot for each customer a history of gas losses ,the joys

Grizzly
19-07-2012, 09:03 PM
You are not on your own IM most of our maintenance site have all their A/C documented under Fgas,
Irrespective of whether there is 3kg of refrigerant in them or not.

I have heard that the minimum of 3kg is to be changed / lowered soon?
maybe Rob can advise on that one?

All our customers like the Fgas log book system as it satisfies any external auditors as well.
The environmentalists like it as well despite most not knowing what they are talking about!

Grizzly

jdunc2301
19-07-2012, 09:50 PM
Never fit gauges unless i think theres a problem, we dont have a set procedure for a service. It's down to the engineer on site, and the gut feeling using expertise n all that lark....

Many sites choose to f-gas log the whole lot as they can then prove that every piece of equipment, if over 3kg has a log, and if not that it's proof that it hasnt got more than 3kg.... all a joke really, the cost and environmental impact of all the paperwork must outweight the so called good a f-gas reg does.

J

jonjon
19-07-2012, 10:11 PM
don't use gauges as i'm now a fully qualified light changer :( the joys of fm companies

jdunc2301
19-07-2012, 10:23 PM
don't use gauges as i'm now a fully qualified light changer :( the joys of fm companies

all about negotiation...

J

Rob White
20-07-2012, 12:09 AM
Rob,

Interesting thought.
One question springs to mind, where have you got it from that additional leak checks are required after a service manifold

To me, the fitting and removal of service manifolds to service ports by suitable qualified engineers does not constitute to a leak.
(And the obvious, it can be checked immediately as long as the system is working)



Hi Viking.

This very conversation was raised with a member from F Gas support and it
was with their guidance that we advise that fitting gauges constitutes
maintenance activities.

See

http://archive.defra.gov.uk/environment/quality/air/fgas/documents/fgassupport-rac5.pdf

DEFRA Fact sheet No5.

What is meant by “maintenance or servicing”?
Commission Regulation 303/2008 defines maintenance or servicing as follows:
“maintenance or servicing” means all activities, excluding recovery and checks
for leakage, that entail breaking into the circuits containing or designed to contain
fluorinated greenhouse gases, in particular supplying the system with fluorinated
greenhouse gases, removing one or more pieces of circuit or equipment,
re-assembling two or more pieces of circuit or equipment, as well as repairing leakages.

Regards

Rob

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Rob White
20-07-2012, 12:26 AM
I have heard that the minimum of 3kg is to be changed / lowered soon?
maybe Rob can advise on that one?

Grizzly



Hi Grizzly.

The commitee that is meeting to discuss changes to the current
European F-gas regulations have sugested that

A minimum and maximum time should be applied for follow up visits
(suggested times are after one week but before one month).

The 3Kg weight limit for the yearly visit could be reduced to 1Kg

But that is just talk at the moment. As it stands the commitee met
last year and again this year but have not made no firm decisions
as yet.

Regards

Rob

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The Viking
20-07-2012, 12:39 AM
OK,
So far we do agree.

But, RAC5 or Fact sheet 5 deals with requirements and qualifications for personnel working on F-gas equipment.
As far as I can see there is no mention in there about leak checking other than the qualification needed to carry them out.

In RAC6 - Practical guidance, where the requirements of leak checks are "clarified", the only mention of follow up leak checks that I can find are that they have to be performed following a leak-repair. Nothing about them having to be carried out unless you found and repaired a leak...

:cool:

.

Grizzly
20-07-2012, 07:23 AM
Hi Rob.
Just what are you envisaging when you refer to a PPM.

Most PPM's I carryout are a "look and log" certainly where a/c is concerned anyway.

Which will include a leak check within the laid down time periods as specified within the Fgas regs.

So as has been stated by many, you don't attach any gauges to a system. Unless you have to!

Viking!
Chill my friend, periodic leak checks the frequency of which are specified Check ACRIB or I.O.R.

However it is all confused by the minimum system charge required (3KG) to necessitate the adoption of FGas.

So in a way both you and Rob are correct only approaching from different ends!

Common sense should prevail.

As usual my answer is simplified and my take on events only.
Grizzly

andy32
20-07-2012, 07:37 PM
Normally the air off is a pretty good indication of the pressurre on a spilt , a lot of systems let you read the pipe temp data from the thermistors as well

Rob White
22-07-2012, 01:02 AM
OK,
So far we do agree.

But, RAC5 or Fact sheet 5 deals with requirements and qualifications for personnel working on F-gas equipment.
As far as I can see there is no mention in there about leak checking other than the qualification needed to carry them out.

In RAC6 - Practical guidance, where the requirements of leak checks are "clarified", the only mention of follow up leak checks that I can find are that they have to be performed following a leak-repair. Nothing about them having to be carried out unless you found and repaired a leak...

:cool:

.

I can't argue with what you say but it it goes back
to a conversation with F-Gas suport and it was with their
guidence that the advice was given.

Regards

Rob

.

Rob White
22-07-2012, 01:15 AM
Hi Rob.
Just what are you envisaging when you refer to a PPM.

Most PPM's I carryout are a "look and log" certainly where a/c is concerned anyway.

Grizzly

Hi Grizzly.

With AC systems there are some facility companies that
instruct their staff to fit gauges while conducting maintenance
visit on AC equipment.

So it was not a specific enquirey, but a genral one and I'm
glad it has generated this debate.

I just shows that somthing that should be black and white clear
has lots of gray clouding the real definition.

I wonder what our European partners think on the mater?
Because the F-Gas directive is suposed to be trans-european
but if there is confusion in the UK what is it like in the rest of
Europe.

Regards

Rob

.

Regards

Rob

.

Grizzly
22-07-2012, 08:24 AM
Hi Rob.
It always takes a long time for new standards to become custom and practise.
Would you consider me wrong, if i was to say with Fgas / 2079.
There are to many differing levels of competence both within the students and teachers?
You are correct debate and discussion, if enough from both sides of the fence are involved!
Will eventually reach a sensible conclusion HOPEFULLY?
Grizzly

Rob White
23-07-2012, 12:30 PM
Hi Rob.
It always takes a long time for new standards to become custom and practise.
Would you consider me wrong, if i was to say with Fgas / 2079.
There are to many differing levels of competence both within the students and teachers?
You are correct debate and discussion, if enough from both sides of the fence are involved!
Will eventually reach a sensible conclusion HOPEFULLY?
Grizzly

.

Hi Grizzly.

The quality is very mixed in both students and I have
to say tutors. There was a lot of money made in a short
period of time and the quality of assessment may have
left quite a bit to be desired??????

I think we have all heard of stories where 3 guys do a
shared practical or where the tutor stands behind the
candidate and helps with the answers............

F-gas questions for sale on ebay??????

A lot of the centres that set up specificaly for F-gas are
now struggling to find work, now the initial rush is over.

As for long term, it will settle down and it will become accepted
as the norm.

Just think back to our training. If yours was like mine we were taught
to purge gas to stop air ingress and we vented bottles to fill them
back up. R22 for crying out loud was used to blow condensers clean.......

Now you would not dream of deliberately venting, but it has taken
10 years or so............

All the best

Rob

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leegally1983
24-07-2012, 12:35 PM
At the end of the day non of this really matters as there is no one policing all this so we have to simply rely on that the engineers doing the job are competant and have the integrity to do the job right but unfortunatley not all do!!

As to fitting gauges during a PPM why would you do it unless you had a suspect leak there are other ways of confirming if the gas pressures are ok i.e. evap temp etc

For me all this FGAS leak testing is very wooly as what is the correct way of doing a fgas leak check? there are many ways tbh i could go to a site tomorrow and do a inspection and check gas pressures evap temps look for signs of oil and could pass it as ok but there could still be a small leak else where its just not lost enough to effect the system in any way yet.

My opinion is that there should be more time spent on policing the companies and thier staff i.e. random site visits, meeting with the staff etc this way if they are not satisfied the engineers are not doing things correctly they can issue a improvement notice and potentially take away thier FGAS stopping them from doing business.

jdunc2301
24-07-2012, 06:54 PM
At the end of the day non of this really matters as there is no one policing all this so we have to simply rely on that the engineers doing the job are competant and have the integrity to do the job right but unfortunatley not all do!!

As to fitting gauges during a PPM why would you do it unless you had a suspect leak there are other ways of confirming if the gas pressures are ok i.e. evap temp etc

For me all this FGAS leak testing is very wooly as what is the correct way of doing a fgas leak check? there are many ways tbh i could go to a site tomorrow and do a inspection and check gas pressures evap temps look for signs of oil and could pass it as ok but there could still be a small leak else where its just not lost enough to effect the system in any way yet.

My opinion is that there should be more time spent on policing the companies and thier staff i.e. random site visits, meeting with the staff etc this way if they are not satisfied the engineers are not doing things correctly they can issue a improvement notice and potentially take away thier FGAS stopping them from doing business.

Spoken like a true on the road guy...agreed...all a load of bull...i stick to good practice, don't vent, do proper checks etc. Sometimes you think...whats the point, install last week....i spent a good while doing a p/test and a decent vac. Big company known as.....ad**** doing the same work just on the next floor didnt pressure test, quick 10 min vac and zoomed off in his van....why did i bother. No one will police it...or should i say why bother...

fridg
26-08-2012, 12:39 AM
.

For those of you who work for larger companies,
When you carry out PPM's does your company have
a Method Statement or a Standard Opperating Procedure
regards the conducting of PPM's.

I have seen a lot of building facilities companies issuing
instructions for fitting gauges on Ac systems while doing the
yearly checks.

Do you fit gauges as a norm while carrying out checks on AC
systems?

I ask because if you do, the fitting of gauges to a working
system means that there must be a follow up visit within the
working month to prove the system is still gas tight!!

Even if the gauges were fitted as part of a PPM.

Plus there is a big argument on "within one month"

How would you define within one month?
Is the same day within one month?

Regards

Rob

.


Our PM'S are contracted monthly in some cases , contractual obligations and legalities state no earlier than 5 days either side of due date.

As far gauges go , nil fitting as other guys have said unless there is a problem , if the unit has the TD i am looking for in the resonable timeframe & cycles when i want it to that is good enough for me.

With ***** prices now around .50c a gram for some , it is just not cost effective.
That is my 2 cents :)