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mr-cool
28-08-2001, 11:11 PM
why all the fuss over R12!!
From what I have read of the 100% of R12 used (in europe) ONLY 8% was down to refrigeration, ie the other 92% was used in aerosol cans and engineers blowing out condensers.

If R12 was monitered and engineers where properly informed (that will be the day) and end users where enforced to have leaks repaired rather than have the system topped up I wonder what percentage of R12 would be released to atmosphere?

Using R134a is good for the world!! Is it?

It's very good for the chemical companys they make a fortune

It's very good for leaking out of systems

It's very good for the electric suppliers as you have to use a compressor that is approx a third larger which means that the power station is pumping out a third more muck into the atmosphere (very sensible)

most third world countries are still making and using it

What are your thoughts?

Is it not about time that the engineers of this world had their say!

Regards to all

mr-cool

Brian_UK
28-08-2001, 11:36 PM
Hi Mr Cool and welcome.

I guess from your post that you enjoy banging your head against hard surfaces :D

mr-cool
29-08-2001, 12:10 AM
Hi Brian

As a engineer I do it all day long!!

The last engineer only took 20 mins to fix it why have you spent an hour and it's not working yet

What do you mean "You could fry eggs on the compressor"

Where has the gas gone?

It's not gas it runs on electric!!

Can you make it cold for a little bit longer as I am selling up soon


Regards


mr-cool

Derek
29-08-2001, 02:28 PM
All the statistics showed that until the Montreal Protocol was enforced that a significant amount of refrigerant produced topped up leaks. (9 times I believe)

As engineers we are collectively responsible and our design and installations that meant there was no cost effective way of getting the job done 'properly'. Our market has chewed it's self down by constantly undercutting (supermarkets again) to get business (blame Thatchers market economy?) result poor standards and bad practice.

Look how few colleges we have left teaching the good stuff Eastleigh Grimsby, North London and they are all under threat. How many Universities with class refrigeration work Stafford, Southampton, Brunel, South Bank and they could all do with some students and industrial funding.

R134a is not a bad fluid it's suffers from not being R12. ICI made so much money from Klea (not) that they dumped it and ran, I don't see all the developments in R22 blends making lots for EU manufacturers now the new market has gone. HFC means lots of Fluorine and that investment is not cheap or popular.

Refrigerant only leaks (more) if you have holes. Yes we were IMHO badly served by component manufacturers and the refrigerant producers in compatibility data all HFC's have done is show how crap our seals, flares and gaskets were and hence why we lost so much fluid. We have learned and it is getting better.

Most third World Article 5 countries are benefiting from the UNEP and UNIDO contracts for replacing manufacturing facilities with HFC and HC technology. Benefits also go to a few UK companies that bothered to register as suppliers of this equipment Tony Blair put in 9M when he was elected I seem to recall and it paid my mortgage for 5 years. The aim is to reduce demand and hence close the production down not an ideal but seems to work. I have seen R12 being used in the Middle East to clean lines for R134a production but technology transfer and good training will change this. I see to recall I did similar things with R11. Recovery is a word that we never used before Montreal did we?

As to getting your say this is a political world and for the UK, I was one of the engineers who voted at the last election many didn't. Having you say is more about having someone in the right place to say if for you, REFCOM, ACRIB, I.O.R, IMechE, who do you pick? New body required?

The industry was badly represented for many years and poor/inappropriate environmental legislation was introduced by a Government focused on accountants but then we could have had an active Green Party and then we really would have something to moan about.

Abe
29-08-2001, 10:14 PM
Im no expert on this issue but I feel strongly that the refrigeration industry did NOT represent itself or lobby for its self interest when this whole CFC debacle was being debated in parliament, etc.
The scientests came up with this ozone hole thingy, and looked for culprits , scapegoats and came up with one, yes........those nasty refrigeration guys
The real culprits, if there is anything like a culprit were those aerosol filling guys, so along with them we got lumbered as well and with it we had a whole new technology thrown in at us. Chemical companies saw an opprtunity to make loadsa money replacing all those CFC installation, like Bill Gates coming up with a new operating system every six months because it has a new feature.
Next time, if there is a next time, I suggest we dont take it lying down or look peevishly while some patronising body of experts try to push something down our throats. I mean we look them square in the face and not be overawed with their lofty positions, airs and positions.
Im not condoning for one instance that if there was a genuine threat to the environment that we ignore opinion and continue regardless, yes, we as a body COULD have done something, tightemed up on this leak problem, toughned installation standards, often I find the OEM's and component manufacturers to be culprits as well. They cut costs and sesign systems without any concern about servicability, often engineers arrive at site and have to put in line tap valves, because the manufacturers dont put them in. Installations with areas of potential leaks, etc
How do we as a body act in a unitary fashion, I dunno that one, but I do feel that we have been steamrolled into this whole thing and we now find an array of gases with all sorts of numbers, R this and L that, drop in, and retofit and Hydro carbon, mixing and matching, and blends, and just sheer..............FRUSTRATION
I have known enginners leave this profession because of the gas issue
I say again.......I aint no expert on this, maybe, just maybe, CFC'c may contribute to these wonderful warm sunny days we are having..........and maybe they werent, and that we have been singled out and punished
I remain scepticle, I just hope that we in future defend our interests, our patch, our livelyhoods and interests, just like every other profession does.
Thats my tuppence worth today
Adieu

Brian_UK
29-08-2001, 11:23 PM
Yes, it's interesting to hear the arguments from different people who generally agree with each other.

The usual problem with the HVACR trade is the same as the building contracting trade and associations. It appears to be a case of pay me an annual subscription and I might represent you somewhere, sometime and on something important, but don't hold your breath.

There was talk some years ago about all refridge/aircon guys being licenced via the Safe Handling Ticket but that never got off the ground because the Government couldn't see any votes in it.

CORGI, for example, is now so damned expensive to get certified that the old timers can't be bothered - will our trade go the same way in the future, who knows?

I do believe that CFCs harm the atmosphere and do my best to preserve what is left for my future grandchildren. Yes, again, the propellant manufacturers' got off lightly as far as the public were concerned I think but I suppose it is better now to blow propane at your armpits in the morning as against R12 - Oh it just hit me - so that's why it got so cold:rolleyes:

All we can do is do our best, make sure that those following us do their best and that our governors are not allowed to get away with anything dodgy.

zolar1
26-04-2002, 06:04 AM
Did you know.......
A few years back, here in the USA, Mount St. Helens volcano erupted and spewed out more chlorine than all the CFC's ever in production throughout history?

But still, aside from the environmental issues, recovery/recycling does make sense - why waste?

Robearbam
12-07-2002, 05:43 PM
I understand the shuttle releases more CFC's in the atmosphere then all the leaking systems of 12 around the globe in just one launch. Gosh...I wonder if that's how that ozone depleteing molecule rascal gets up that high! I'm all for saving the enviorment, but why couldn't they just stop manufacturing 12 systems and let them die off. I think we get ahead of ourselves at times or maybe it's just political pressure. I also understand that if 134a is found to be some type of hazzard in the future that it will be discontinued too. What we will do then? Reinvent cooling? Such a shame!

Abe
12-07-2002, 11:13 PM
Forget the ozone theory, what about what I hear that 134a is bad for your health??

RogGoetsch
13-07-2002, 08:18 AM
Originally posted by Brian_UK
Hi Mr Cool and welcome.

I guess from your post that you enjoy banging your head against hard surfaces :D

Good one, Brian.

Actually, sports fans, letting go of R-12 hurt other industries more than ours.

Yes, it's true that we were used to the stuff and ya gotta love a refrigerant with no glide! That is what I miss most: being able to set a pressure control and monitor a system's performance with greater precision. That, and no recovery!

But take it from an old ammonia fan, CFCs are not that user-friendly: denser than oil hence no more pumped overfeed or flooded evaporators with simple floats but a pesky expansion valve and superheat considerations instead. NH3 is thermodynamically superior, simpler for leak detection(!), inexpensive, and if it does leak, it's fertilizer, for God's sake! Less obvious advantages: clears out your sinuses quick and it makes it easy to drive annoying people out of the mechanical room!

Sure, it killed a few people now and then, but that just served to raise the average intelligence of service personnel! Ah, for the good old days!

I picture the meetings as the captains of our industry: equipment manufacturing, chemical, service, etc. met to plan their strategy to defeat this insidious move to ban CFCs that threatened our livelihood. I'm sure they debated long and hard on whether the ban should be opposed outright or whether we should seek greater evidence of environmental damage before committing to action.

And I'm sure those leaders decided they needed to assess the monetary damage if the ban were to proceed. They summoned their accountants, financial advisors and other soothsayers and ordered them to calculate the huge expenses in converting.

And the figures were large and disturbing. And then the leaders bellowed: "The bottom line, dammit! What's the bottom line?" And in boardrooms across the lands, nervous accountants, hurriedly skipping to the last page of the report, meekly replied: "Umm, we'll make 14 gazillion dollars and 39 cents."

And then I'm sure a great hush descended on those same boardrooms as those great men realized they must respond to the call of duty and vow to protect the planet at all costs!

Other industries were caught napping, I suppose, and paid dearly. I read one report that said a single IBM circuit board manufacturing plant in San Jose, California, using R-12 as a residue-free solvent to wash the flux from etched circuit boards vented 3 million pounds per year!

But if the ozone layer of the planet might be at stake, and the research seemed to indicate it was, merely vowing to recover would mean little. How many pounds of refrigerant do you recover compared to the number of pounds a year you purchase to replenish systems after repairs?

I don't know about the space shuttle and volcanoes. I thought the space shuttle used hydrogen/oxygen. Is the oxidant something chlorine-based? My geology is pretty weak but I am skeptical of the chlorine claim. (Okay, I'm skeptical of most things!)

Perhaps we were sold a bill of goods and the threat is bogus. But we're a clever bunch and I'm sure other refrigerants, even other means will be found. (Probably Peltier/photovoltaic when, as Buckminster Fuller envisioned, every house on the planet is roofed in photovoltaics and power is shunted from the sunny side of the planet to the shady side and all the old refrigeration engineers sit around in front of their incredulous great-grandchildren who are sure the doddering old coot has lost it as he tries to explain how these black lumpy compressor thingies used to pump hairspray or something around!)

Anyway, I'm proud of the industry for doing the careful thing, whether it was for altruistic reasons or not. I hear it's a lot easier to fix a planet before it's broken, than after.

Rog

Derek
15-07-2002, 11:30 AM
Space Shuttle Cooling

Two *****-21 coolant loop systems supplyingcold plate networks for cooling avionics units. Other systems include liquid/liquid heat exchangers, flash exchangers, radiators, ammonia boilers.

R123 as well I heard but nothing on that from NASA.

Derek

Robearbam
15-07-2002, 01:10 PM
Hey Rog,

Just to clear things up on the shuttle, from what I understand each launch produces about 200 metric tons of chlorine as HCL, of which about 1/3 or 68 tons is injected into the stratosphere. It's residency there is about three years. I'm not sure about it's significance in depleting ozone compared to all other forms of contaminates but I do believe it contributes.

superheat
19-07-2002, 01:53 PM
Gentlemen it is not the chlorine. Most chlorine bearing chemicals are water soluble. They wash out as acid rain. Refrigerants are stable enough to get the chlorine above the rain clouds before the chlorine breaks off the molecule.
I wish there was a permanent R12 replacement that could work in a domestic refrigerator. 134 is a good medium temp refrigerant. It is almost as good as R22.
What I hate the most is POE oils and fractionixing refrigerants. There is a lot of money spent in completely recharging a leaking system. I have lost several costomers, because I charge them to recover and recharge. "The last guy just charged me $50 to fill my system."

zolar1
29-07-2002, 05:15 AM
The US Government is EXEMPT from the reclamation/venting restrictions of the Montreal Protocol.

I believe that the EPA and the like are forcing the refrigerant handlers to dream up a new way for the big businesses to make loads more money, all in the name of the environment.

Maybe we all should start labeling everything "R & D" and not worry about it anymore???

abcdefg1675
22-10-2002, 01:32 AM
Originally posted by Aiyub
Im no expert on this issue but I feel strongly that the refrigeration industry did NOT represent itself or lobby for its self interest when this whole CFC debacle was being debated in parliament, etc.
The scientests came up with this ozone hole thingy, and looked for culprits , scapegoats and came up with one, yes........those nasty refrigeration guys
The real culprits, if there is anything like a culprit were those aerosol filling guys, so along with them we got lumbered as well and with it we had a whole new technology thrown in at us. Chemical companies saw an opprtunity to make loadsa money replacing all those CFC installation, like Bill Gates coming up with a new operating system every six months because it has a new feature.
Next time, if there is a next time, I suggest we dont take it lying down or look peevishly while some patronising body of experts try to push something down our throats. I mean we look them square in the face and not be overawed with their lofty positions, airs and positions.
Im not condoning for one instance that if there was a genuine threat to the environment that we ignore opinion and continue regardless, yes, we as a body COULD have done something, tightemed up on this leak problem, toughned installation standards, often I find the OEM's and component manufacturers to be culprits as well. They cut costs and sesign systems without any concern about servicability, often engineers arrive at site and have to put in line tap valves, because the manufacturers dont put them in. Installations with areas of potential leaks, etc
How do we as a body act in a unitary fashion, I dunno that one, but I do feel that we have been steamrolled into this whole thing and we now find an array of gases with all sorts of numbers, R this and L that, drop in, and retofit and Hydro carbon, mixing and matching, and blends, and just sheer..............FRUSTRATION
I have known enginners leave this profession because of the gas issue
I say again.......I aint no expert on this, maybe, just maybe, CFC'c may contribute to these wonderful warm sunny days we are having..........and maybe they werent, and that we have been singled out and punished
I remain scepticle, I just hope that we in future defend our interests, our patch, our livelyhoods and interests, just like every other profession does.
Thats my tuppence worth today
Adieu

(this reply isnt really intended to be directly addressed to Aiyub, but just anyone who reads it)



and this stuff about engineers relesing the R-12 into the atmosphere should be saved for the weekly world news tabloids. one of our constitutional rights in the US is "Innocent until proven guilty". You cant just Point fingers unless you have rock-solid evidence. did you see engineers releasing the R-12? is it on video?

and if were going to point fingers, how do we know the ozone hole is real? did you look at the earth from a distance with some special equipment to see for yourself? i could have taken a picture in adobe photoshop and edited to make it look like their is a hole in the ozone layer. it could be a scam to get others rich off of the HFC 134A. Maybe a saddistic person came up with the ozone hole... (i could go on and on). and the increase in skin cancer could just be caused by crop circles...


i have read somewhere that about 60% of the R-12 that was released is mainly from automobiles. their compressors are desinged to leak a little for lubrication, and the rubber hoses arnt 100% air tight, are they? my car leaked out 3 lbs of refridgerant because the hoses didnt have the refridgerant and its oil flowing through it to keep it lubricated, so it became dry, hard and leaked slowly.