Vulcan Lockring for R410a A/C system

[daddymac]

I have been brazing flare to solder connectors on my R410a installs as I've had too many problems with standard flares failing.
Lugging a Oxy/Acetylene portapac round and all the hassle of hot work permits and safety rules etc sucks. I'm tempted by the Vulcan Lokring system... anyone used one... is it any good?:)

[rbartlett]

funnily enough this thought has been going round my mind recently as I've heard they can shed 40% install time off a vrv

but are they any good??

cheers

richard

[Brian_UK]

I've used them in the past on R22 systems when installing in old wooden buildings without problems.

You need to allow room to work but saves looking around the back of your brazes !!

[eggs]

I don't mean to dampen anybodys enthusiasm.....BUT!!!!

A company i sometimes work for, bought this type of kit to try out, not sure what make it was.(but it would NOT have been a cheapo one)
At least half of the joints failed on 410a.
Just to make sure, a differant install team tried the kit and got the same result.
That kit cost them a fortune, and they were not prepared to try it again.
I can see if i can get it at a good price if anybody wants it:eek: only used on two jobs, one carefull owner etc etc etc
I passed up the opportunity

cheers

eggs

[chiller563]

OK guys, so what the hell is a "hot work permit". Being from the US I have never heard this one before.

Chill

[rbartlett]

OK guys, so what the hell is a "hot work permit". Being from the US I have never heard this one before.

Chill

if you go on a lot of sites in the UK you need a 'hot works permit' this is a safety assessment of the job you are about to do if it involves 'hot works' ie welding brazing etc.
you will be req'd to show risk assessments and safety procedure plus extinguishers available time on site after all 'hot works' is finished etc etc

cheers

richard

[US Iceman]

A hot work permit is required here in the US also in some applications. These are very standard requirements when working on ammonia refrigeration systems and are part of the PSM (Process Safety Management) programs.

The permit is issued by the facility owner. It will list all of the requirements you are responsible for during "hot work" processes. The hot work processes include welding, brazing, cutting (with a torch or other spark producing device).

The permit is valid only for the stated operation and must be returned to the client when the job is complete. The permit is recorded and signed off as complete.

When you get into industrial refrigeration, refineries, or chemical plants the permit must be valid before you start work.

[Abe]

Some years back I was called to a Shopping Mall..........The place I was working in was Coombes Bakery I think.

I started welding...............Next thing..............Trrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrring

The whole................I mean whole centre was evacuated........

The wail of fire engines sirens still haunt me......

I realised it was Me..................but like a coward I slunk away to the basement.......

When the dust had settled, they had looked at the control panel zones.........identified the location of the smoke detector......

and found the offending welding gear............

They were waiting for me.............

That will rank as the most embaressing moment of my life,

That is Why a hot permit is required

:)

[rbartlett]

I emptied out a 5* hotel at lunch time because the dectector was hidden

I glanced around and not seeing a SD went ahead braised..oppsee doopsee :-/

The thing was against the wall and a shelf that had been fitted right up to it. Even the maintenance men had trouble finding it.


Cheers

richard

[frank]

One of the universities where we work will pass on the £350 call out charge for the fire brigade to whoever is responsible for the false fire alarm - things we say to try and pass the blame :D

[slingblade]

A few years ago myself and a collegue emptied part of the ICI plant at runcorn, and emerged into the car park to be greeted by 2500 employees, 3 police cars, 4 fire engines and a fire investigation tactical unit. we were saved by the fact that the alarm klaxon in the basement where we were working was broken and we were at risk by the fact we heard no alarm. an expensive job for a 12000 an hour split a/c system (glad i did not foot the bill).

[Karl Hofmann]

Managed to empty a call centre this Summer with the dust from my core borer upsetting the smoke detectors :rolleyes:

[daddymac]

Thanks for the info... what a choice! Either fork out for a Lokring set and risk expensive R410a leaks, or suffer the consequences of setting fire alarms off! Nightmare!:(

As I thought, there's no easy way! Magic Just Magic!!:mad:

[Abe]

One of the universities where we work will pass on the £350 call out charge for the fire brigade to whoever is responsible for the false fire alarm - things we say to try and pass the blame :D

They were going to fine me £500.00, but I put on such a pathetic sad face.... the bill never ever did arrive

[Cofreth]

if you go on a lot of sites in the UK you need a 'hot works permit' this is a safety assessment of the job you are about to do if it involves 'hot works' ie welding brazing etc.
you will be req'd to show risk assessments and safety procedure plus extinguishers available time on site after all 'hot works' is finished etc etc

cheers

richard

Sorry, how about installation for residential and open air at commercial buildings area too? Other than fire hazard industrial areas like refineries,phamacutical plants etc.

[rbartlett]

Sorry, how about installation for residential and open air at commercial buildings area too? Other than fire hazard industrial areas like refineries,phamacutical plants etc.


Eash site will have it's own set up and regulations. usually H.W.P only apply to the inside of the building but others will insist on a rsk assessment just in case. it's all very time consuming and my heart sinks when in -say- a large shopping centre and I see that some hot works is req'd

cheers

richard

[lokringpete]

As a new member and with over 10 years of technical support for the Lokring product< I would welcome any questions with regard to the Lokring product and its usage, The connector is suitable for R410a when applied correctly the working pressures are 50 bar with refrigeration grade Copper and a stated 200 bar burst.

[Argus]

.



Lockring Pete,

How does this system of jointing stand when conformity with the PED is needed?

Anybody come across a PED conformity assessment using this gear yet?

.

[frank]

The connector is suitable for R410a when applied correctly the working pressures are 50 bar with refrigeration grade Copper and a stated 200 bar burst.

And what are the probles encountered when the installation space is restricted and the lockring is not installed correctly? Do you have to rip out sections of pipe?

[daddymac]

As a new member and with over 10 years of technical support for the Lokring product< I would welcome any questions with regard to the Lokring product and its usage, The connector is suitable for R410a when applied correctly the working pressures are 50 bar with refrigeration grade Copper and a stated 200 bar burst.

Hi Pete.
Is there a UK base where the Lockring product could be viewed and demonstrated? Possibly, some of the problems are down to lack of training? Could this be addressed?
I have continuous problems with HWP's etc, so if I could join R410 lines reliably and without heat then I'd buy a kit! :D

[Karl Hofmann]

I have a Vulkan Lokring set but all of my fittings are aluminium for use with automotive tubing though I did have the presence of mind to buy the larger ratchet so that it could be used for larger tubing. The problem that I have found with the alloy fittings is that they can lock up and go on crooked, this is mainly due to there being limited acess to automotive pipework but what it does do it does very well. The car makers do love to use unusual sized flexi pipe and alloy tubing which means that frequently there is no fitting to suit (My selection of fittings is pretty big) Really there should be no excuse for me not to use Vulkans as I too hate dragging bottles about and really....really hate messing around with long coils of semi hard tubing.

[lokringpete]

The Lokring has been tested by many independent bodies such as Lloyds,UL and TUV and is certified by these bodies as to the working and burst pressures.
I hope that this answers your question if not please advise the criteria that you need to satisfy and I will do my best to give you the relevant in formation.

[lokringpete]

And what are the probles encountered when the installation space is restricted and the lockring is not installed correctly? Do you have to rip out sections of pipe?

The Lokring connector is a permanent joint and if installed incorrectly it would require cutting out.
New tooling has been developed to try to assist with tight working areas and the assembly instructions have now been simplified to ensure that mistakes by the user are kept to an absolute minimum.

[lokringpete]

Hi Pete.
Is there a UK base where the Lockring product could be viewed and demonstrated? Possibly, some of the problems are down to lack of training? Could this be addressed?
I have continuous problems with HWP's etc, so if I could join R410 lines reliably and without heat then I'd buy a kit! :D
Vulkan Lokring have an office in Brighouse and they have engineers that would be happy to demonstrate the working proceedures and tooling.
If you require any further details drop me a message.

[lokringpete]

.



Lockring Pete,

How does this system of jointing stand when conformity with the PED is needed?

Anybody come across a PED conformity assessment using this gear yet?

.
Re: Vulcan Lockring for R410a A/C system
The Lokring has been tested by many independent bodies such as Lloyds,UL and TUV and is certified by these bodies as to the working and burst pressures.
I hope that this answers your question if not please advise the criteria that you need to satisfy and I will do my best to give you the relevant in formation.

[frank]

Can the Lockring, say, be used to install a replacement reversing valve into an air cooled condensing unit?

[Tony Weston]

I emptied out a 5* hotel at lunch time because the dectector was hidden

I glanced around and not seeing a SD went ahead braised..oppsee doopsee :-/

The thing was against the wall and a shelf that had been fitted right up to it. Even the maintenance men had trouble finding it.


Cheers

richard
I did the same at Marks and Sparks in Wolverhampton !! Didnt tell them I was doing a braze, and bingo all hell was let loose. I kept my head low all that week.:D

[lokringpete]

Can the Lockring, say, be used to install a replacement reversing valve into an air cooled condensing unit?

Lokring do have machined flare connections for this purpose which have a copper bonnet washer to seal between the flare faces with a half Lokring joint to connect to the pipe.

[alsmc]

Hi, i used lockrings on an install last year to install several toshiba rav1400s, pressure testing was fine but when the system went into heating we started to have leaks this i belevie was caused by the fittings expanding at a different rate to the pipe as the lockrings are quite a heavy brass. i called lockring out to site and there advise was to use a pipe liner on all pipe wall thicknesses, this i did and at the momet have not had a problem.one thing i will say is do not use there euro fittings / flare as they cannot stand being taken of and re tightend, they will leak
Al

[Obi Wan]

Hello All,

Just joined this site.

I had some experience of this lockring at Heathrow Airport. The installer had to use this as they could not get a hot work permit. The kit was a Daikin super multi plus with the BP Boxes (branch providers). On first start up they found that the 3 out of 4 indoor units did not cool, checked the obvious cross wiring/piping, refrigerant leaks but could not find the problem. It looked as if the EEVs in the BP boxes were not opening. Replaced the PCB in the BP box then the EEV motor, then the whole BP box. Still could not find the problem. In the end ended up cutting all the pipes to find total blockages where the lockring fittings were fitted. The copper pipe need to be coated in some kind of a epoxy resin before the brass lockring is compressed on. Somehow the installed managed to get large amounts of resin inside the copper pipes. Even found a blockage in a middle of the pipe between two lockring fittings.

The main question we had was, how does the resin react with the refrigerant and the oil?
Brazing can be a pain, but is proven!!

Obi Wan ;)

[lokringpete]

Hi, i used lockrings on an install last year to install several toshiba rav1400s, pressure testing was fine but when the system went into heating we started to have leaks this i belevie was caused by the fittings expanding at a different rate to the pipe as the lockrings are quite a heavy brass. i called lockring out to site and there advise was to use a pipe liner on all pipe wall thicknesses, this i did and at the momet have not had a problem.one thing i will say is do not use there euro fittings / flare as they cannot stand being taken of and re tightend, they will leak
Al

The inserts are required with all soft tubes 3/8" od and above, this provides the joint with added security in the event that the tube is moved after assembly, however I would personally suggest that an insert is used on all tubes with a wall thickness of 1mm or less for added security against tube movement during an installation.

I was interested to note your comments with regard to the euro fittings and would like to know the torque settings used when tightening the flares so we can establish your findings.

[lokringpete]

Hello All,

Just joined this site.

I had some experience of this lockring at Heathrow Airport. The installer had to use this as they could not get a hot work permit. The kit was a Daikin super multi plus with the BP Boxes (branch providers). On first start up they found that the 3 out of 4 indoor units did not cool, checked the obvious cross wiring/piping, refrigerant leaks but could not find the problem. It looked as if the EEVs in the BP boxes were not opening. Replaced the PCB in the BP box then the EEV motor, then the whole BP box. Still could not find the problem. In the end ended up cutting all the pipes to find total blockages where the lockring fittings were fitted. The copper pipe need to be coated in some kind of a epoxy resin before the brass lockring is compressed on. Somehow the installed managed to get large amounts of resin inside the copper pipes. Even found a blockage in a middle of the pipe between two lockring fittings.

The main question we had was, how does the resin react with the refrigerant and the oil?
Brazing can be a pain, but is proven!!

Obi Wan ;)

The Lokprep solution is compatible with all refrigerants and the correct amount of Lokprep is stated in the instructions as:

5) Apply sufficient Lokprep to form a continuous bead around the tube circumference to ensure a good coating thus ensuring all surface imperfections are sealed within the Lokring joint.

I would welcome the opportunity to show you the correct
application of a Lokring connector as proven tube jointing
technique as I am sure that it would prove beneficial for this
type of application if applied by a competent engineer.

[Obi Wan]

Dear Lockringpete,

Thanks for the invite, but I am unlikely to use it myself. Can you send me the technical data or URL. People are always asking me about this.

[Clivo]

Hi all I have been using lokring fittings on splits and multi spits in Spain for ages, just follow the instructions and use the correct tools and they work great,

I was trying to reply to this thread with a link for a PDF to show all the lokring fittings, tools and user guide but wont let me post the link if anybody wants it you can email me and I will let you have it,


clivo:)

[Refrigerologist]

Hi all, I have been using the lokring fittings on splits and multis for a good while now with no problems. pressure tested to 40 bar for 48hours on several occassions with no sign of a leak.

As long as you fit the inserts to soft drawn pipe there should be no problem. It is saving me hours of wasted time getting brazing permits, shutting off fire alarms and the inevitable staying on for at least an hour for fire watch.

Also most liability insurance policies now require a second operative to be present during hot work. They must not be involved with the work being carried out and are there purely to raise the alarm or operate the fire extinguisher if the worst should happen. Now I can safely join pipes on my own.

Personally I think it is a great bit of kit.

Graham

[gwilliamson]

Has anyone had any problems with using the Lokring system with branch valves. Am think about changing form brazing due to the permits etc? Thanks

[Argus]

I'd strongly urge you to check if this type of joint method will be acceptable to your client as an alternative to brazing.

[greg284]

Hey I have been using vulcan lockring joints for 2 years and find them brilliant if you take your time and prepare the joint properly by cleaning with emery cloth then wipe off dust and use lockprep fluid.

only ever messed up 2 joints out of dozens
Hope this helps :D

[eager]

Dear Friends
I am in Domestic Refrigerator Manufacturing Company
I have taken up project for converting Brazing Joints to Lock Ring Joints

At present we are using 25% Silver Rods for copper to Steel Joints and 2% Silver Rods for Copper to Copper Joints

We have planned to change Copper -Steel joints ( 25% Silver ) to Lock rings for cost benefits

Can you help me in let me know the benefits of Lock rings over Brazing Joints in terms of
1. Reliability,
2. Consistency in quality,
3. Skill require,
4. Cost
5. Production rate

[xamtex]

ive been using the lokring kit on R134a auotmotive pipe repairs.....no failures yet....access is the only problem as you need a bit of space to work the pliers.

[FrankA]

Hi Guys!

That was very funny and embarashing experience about "hot work permits" and SD incidence... I will always remember that..

Thanks.

[iceken]

I don't mean to dampen anybodys enthusiasm.....BUT!!!!

A company i sometimes work for, bought this type of kit to try out, not sure what make it was.(but it would NOT have been a cheapo one)
At least half of the joints failed on 410a.
Just to make sure, a differant install team tried the kit and got the same result.
That kit cost them a fortune, and they were not prepared to try it again.
I can see if i can get it at a good price if anybody wants it:eek: only used on two jobs, one carefull owner etc etc etc
I passed up the opportunity

cheers

eggs
Hi Please contact a local wholesaler to do free trading how to use the kit and you will have no more problems it is all about preparing the pipe and possible that you needed the inserts if the pipe was not the right gauge
regards ice ken

[cooldude]

We have just got 1 of these kits. Dont know when ill use it but I will let you know how it goes.

[teemyob]

Hello there,

Vulcan Lockring.......

We use them on R600a fridge work, never used them on A/C units.

The problem with using Lockring on fridge units is the total lack of space for the grips.

However, when used correctly, the joints rarely leak. The secret I am told is correct use of/applying liberal amounts of fluid.

Where possible we braze and only use the kit where obtaining a HWP is difficult. For example Airports etc.

Hope this helps?

Trev.

[FrankWSmith]

Hi Guys

I used to work for a company here in South Africa and we did an installation with the Mitsubishi City Multi 410a . The Loc-ring system was utilised, the joint held together during the pressure test , but when the units were commisioned we started experincing disasterous failures of the joints. At the end of the day we had to cut out all of the joints and use the standard brazed fittings. They did how ever admit that was a manufacturing fault in the fittings. I would not recomend them at all.

[goldpau]

Hi,
We only use lokring now and have never had a problem with using it on R410a, it is quick and very easy to use and just speeds the whole install job right up - on a downer last year we got a dodgy batch of 3/8 lokrings, put 4 in on a job and all leaked on pressure test, took them all out replaced all and again all leaked - not happy! but we sent them all back to lokring who apologised and replaced the lot - since then not had a problem since.
Would def recomment using it.
Paul

[WINJA]

Hi Guys!

That was very funny and embarashing experience about "hot work permits" and SD incidence... I will always remember that..

Thanks.

Been there and done it myself with building evacs , the worst was a high rise with 50 hp main fan it stopped due to a speed drive fault, i checked out the motor and restarted it and it went up in smoke in the air handler , i felt like a **** when 13 levels of office block was being emptied , then my next was i shifted a tile and didnt realise the retard fire alarm guys not only ran the wires in .75 mm single core but also just threw the cable from detector to detector over the tiles, i wasnt even close to a detector and managed to pull a wire and set off the alarms, then i was donig a repair on a york water chiller and did all the right things got a hot work permit , got the fire guys out to isolate everything , started the weld then the alarms went off , standing outside the firemen somehow knew who to see and even knew my name , ends up someone who got sent an email smelled smoke and tripped a call point , the fire alarm guy said everything was isolated so i pointed the firemen in his direction , hey live and learn 17 years on the job you can expect ****ups

[tbirdtbird]

Hey LokringPete,

These gizzmos look interesting. The website has some videos to view but they are in some bizarro file format, so can't watch'em... Can an IT person at Vulcan upload those videos in the more common .mpg or .avi format???:)

[SuperspinMark]

Hi all I have been using lokring fittings on splits and multi spits in Spain for ages, just follow the instructions and use the correct tools and they work great,

I was trying to reply to this thread with a link for a PDF to show all the lokring fittings, tools and user guide but wont let me post the link if anybody wants it you can email me and I will let you have it,


clivo:)
Hi Clivo
This is my first ever message on any forum so I hope it works!! :rolleyes: !! I am living in Alhaurin and am in desperate need of Lokring stuff!!
Specifically an aluminium step down from 7 to 6 for a domestic fridge. ( 7-6NRAL00 )
Where do you buy?

[nikos topts]

take a mapp gas burner my friend and sold the inside unit connections,the cheapest and best!

[barl]

Hi guys,
I have just repaired a Tosh twin split system running on 410a found three leaks on 6 of the Lokrings fitted. (18 month old)
Yesterday I rang Vulcan who tell me they are still awaiting official approval for 410a. Also Toshiba condone the use of Lokrings fitted to their systems. In my opinion braze your joints it’s tried and tested. Any product which may hold a pressure test but begins to leak when the system runs in heating, that’s just no good...

[Daikin=Overated]

Please see my new thread on a discounted group buy for this Lokring kit!!

Regards,

J.

[Daikin=Overated]

The irony of this thread was that I had originally posted it to rally up interest in a group buy. Seems like everyone is interested but wishes to purchase at times convenient to them which is a fair, yet costly approach when when could have clubbed together.

I've a visit due with a sales rep next week for this product. Will let you know what I bought in the end, and how the kit fairs in the field for me.

Regards,

J.