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View Full Version : 3 million is it enough for sainsburys contract







cold.man
25-05-2012, 09:22 PM
3 million....is this enough for the sainsburys contract, ok there is alot of stores having refurbs.
Mainly switching to CO2 but lets face it there are plenty of stores in very poor condition.
wages..ot..full comp contract..plus all other overheads 3 million very questionable.

whats your thoughts people...

dt8project
25-05-2012, 09:52 PM
suppose it depends on the t+c's.... what 'extras' can be charged for....... or is it totally inclusive???

install monkey
25-05-2012, 11:19 PM
at least jamie oliver can sleep at night knowing his strawberries are cool!! :o

cold.man
25-05-2012, 11:20 PM
not sure on what extras can be charged for etc....but i would expect that would be limited with the sainsburys stores. on a lot of sites you can polish a turd but its still a turd i would expect this to eat away at that annual figure very quickly. This will be interesting not sure CBES know what they have got themselves into unless they have actually managed to strike a better deal than everyone else over the years.

al
25-05-2012, 11:23 PM
3000 quid per store fully comp? Can't be right, comp contracts here start at 3k excl compressor failures, average is about 5 to 7000 euros. Sounds very little, are you sure its not labour only?

Going on Sainsburys site which says they've 1000 stores nationwide.

Al

dt8project
25-05-2012, 11:29 PM
CBES........... is that CITY refrigeration or a part of it?

cold.man
26-05-2012, 10:29 AM
ye thats it they are part of city.....al they dont have all the stores nationwide they have hereford, midlands and northwest, 94 stores in total. these stores still cost alot of money to maintain. I cant help but think they may have undercut everyone to get the contract as these facilities companies do nowadays. im still sat on the fence at the minute with this one. not sure what the contract was worth to other companies but as dt8project says the terms may not be the same.

Moneyhell
26-05-2012, 05:58 PM
Does not sound like enough.

You are probably right about undercutting cold.man.

City probably want to break out of just having Asda but, it still needs to add up cost-wise you would think.

r.bartlett
26-05-2012, 08:28 PM
Does not sound like enough.

You are probably right about undercutting cold.man.

City probably want to break out of just having Asda but, it still needs to add up cost-wise you would think.

This is why the industry ends up with a bad name. Big FM firms racing to the bottom. I know it's difficult as they have mouths to feed and the pressure on the management to get the next contract wich 'may' mean the difference between administration or survival is huge.

The supermarket trade is littered with national fridge firms gone bust but as long as there is the next mug in line nothing will change..

dt8project
26-05-2012, 10:46 PM
so if CBES have won the contract in these areas, will the Space Engineering Engineers be Tuped over??

cold.man
26-05-2012, 11:11 PM
r.bartlett you hit the nail on the head that is exactly the case there is always mugs who will bend over backwards to get the contract but some break with the stain.
some space engineers will go with the contract.

NB12
26-05-2012, 11:56 PM
To be fair all of the vacancies i have ever heard of with City always seem to be a fixed salary (no o/t), and usually alright money. If they know what there labour costs are going to be this way then it must make it easier when doing the sums bidding for contracts.

cold.man
27-05-2012, 12:16 AM
the sainsbury contract will be different to the asda contract 24 hr coverage CPT (calculated product temp) alarms on the RDM's will be classed as offsales ie 4 hrs response etc well as far as i am aware its different.
city have it right with the asda stores though engineers alocated there own stores ie do a ****e job and it will come back and bite them in the backside. its in the engineers best interests to do there job properly but when you have different engineers constantly attending different stores the crap engineers can fly under the radar alot easier thats my opinion anyway. CBES may do it this way in the future if they did i think they will keep the contract.
alot of the stores are switching to CO2 now and most work carried out on the packs can be 2 man jobs this will put a stain on man power also.

install monkey
27-05-2012, 12:22 AM
we had a heating lad leave to go work for city-as a heating eng he was a good lad- as for squirting gas in lennox units it sends shivers down me spine- because of some of the quick fixes he does-its all about kpi's response to calls within an alloted time to make em look good- all about performance figures not the fix it first time with a competant engineer who will ensure it will work as to turn up and maul with it!!- sticking a commercial gas engineer through his f gas isnt the best idea!

cold.man
27-05-2012, 01:08 AM
this is it meet the SLA is the main aim for these companies but when you have 1 engineer responsible for the site the work ethic of that engineer changes instantly instead of f**k it someone else can sort it, the book stops with them no excuses.
this is the problem when you have different engineers attending site all the time bodge it and get to the next SLA this is why contracts are changing hands constantly in my opinion. eventualy the sites are going to fall over especialy in the weather we have had over the past week. all the problems that should have been rectified rear there ugly head.
the only downer with this if CBES did eventualy run the contract this way someone will certainly get the **** end of the stick with some stores.
i dont know a great deal about city but the engineers i do know who work there are good lads and i would presume the no all no f**k all lads are soon found out.
is this the way forward to run a contract? does it cost more to run a contract this way?
i suprised space havent run the tesco contract this way to be honest they are a bigger enough company to do so.

headgasket
27-05-2012, 11:55 AM
If my maths is right that’s 87 a day per store, madness

cold.man
27-05-2012, 08:23 PM
is that for 94 stores?
if it is i wouldnt of thought a company like CBES would of over seen somthing like that they must have some other deal up there sleeve.

dt8project
27-05-2012, 09:17 PM
Totally agree cold.man.... we had our own sites at one stage, they scrapped it and just started sending any Engineer of any trade to call outs.....eg electricians to a/c jobs, just to meet the '4 hour response' time and therefore get a larger fee...... the sites soon started suffering, so then they started using sub-contractors, who f#cked them up even more...... they had no service experience trying to diagnose faults on chillers and vrv plant, I've never seen so many safety switches linked out:mad:....... the sites soon became a mess.......... then management finally seen the light and started giving us our own sites back again.......... and guess what......... call outs reduced, clean and tidy sites, all systems running sweet

cold.man
27-05-2012, 10:45 PM
if companies want to keep contracts this is certainly the way forward in my opinion not that it means anything anyway. if you have a team of engineers who can maintain there sites with minimum fuss. for one you get a better relationship between the engineer, the company, and the store. speaking with store managers one of there pet hates is having 10 different engineers on site in 1 week nobody is on the same song sheet no wonder these stores lack confidence and the contracts change hands on a regular basis.
i am not sure if it costs more to run a contract this way but i would put my years wage on it that its more profitable for the company and the store simply because the stores get looked after better.
i dont understand this because the people making these decisions are suppose to be inteligent be it people from the facilities companies and the stores somones at fault.
my wife shops at asda she says it alot cheaper than tesco and sainsburys (makes me f**kin wonder).

The Viking
28-05-2012, 01:44 AM
i dont understand this because the people making these decisions are suppose to be inteligent be it people from the facilities companies and the stores somones at fault.

Intelligent yes but what you have to remember is that when you get high enough in the food chain all you will find is accountants...
Todays figures on a piece of paper is all they are interested in. Tomorrows figures? Sorry that is on another piece of paper and will not be relevant for today's decision making progress.


my wife shops at asda she says it alot cheaper than tesco and sainsburys
That is probably true...
How does the quality compare?
Which shop is closest?
She is probably your accountant:D

:cool:

.

cold.man
28-05-2012, 09:10 PM
Ye your right viking she is the accountant she makes sure theres nothing left by the 15th of each month shes supposed to be inteligent aswell;).lol

I understand what your saying and can appreciate where your coming from but obviously that solution does not seem to be working for some FM companies.
Im not saying i am right with what i have said it may be a load of crap ,I would of thought they would be a little more proactive than that. Myself I am way down the food chain from that kind of decision making process and I would expect there would be alot to take into consideration.
i just think 3 million sound very shy for 94 stores.....and alot of FM companies are loosing contracts I know this has happened for years but its just complete madness how the FM companies and the stores think at times, or it might just be me going mad with the heat:rolleyes:...:D

The Viking
28-05-2012, 10:15 PM
Nah,
You are not going mad, it is the rest of the world...

What you have to remember is that us engineers are of a more evolved breed than the general population, we can intuitively see what todays actions will mean for tomorrow.
Us engineers has even come so far in the evolution that we can not only generate bullsh*t, we are also reasonable good at detecting it and separate it from reality.

Accountants on the other hand are quite backwards beings, they look at yesterday's results to make decisions about tomorrow.
Accountants will constantly generate bullsh*t, in fact most of them takes to generate bullsh*t in order to prove that they are worth their salaries. Unfortunately accountants believe that their bullsh*t is gospel and will go forth in hordes to follow said bullsh*t.

One example:
To an engineer a brick is worth about 0.30, 10.000 of them is therefore wort about 3.000.
To an accountant 10.000 bricks are worth anything up to 500.000 depending on where they are found and when.

Another example:
Back in 1931, when engineers ruled the world, there was an office block constructed in central Stockholm. The engineers designing this building carefully selected all the parts for the fresh air delivery system.
This system was so well designed that with a little greasing every so often, all the fans would keep on working as designed for a very long time.
In fact, they were working so well that they all were still fully operational when the accountants started ruling the world some 50 odd years later. But then something sad happens. In 1986 the accountants, now in charge, decide that it is too expensive to keep greasing the fans and stop to pay the engineers to perform this task.
3 years later, in 1989, the fans are completely worn out and has to be replaced, this is when yours truly enters the story...

The fans I fitted?
Nah, I bet they didn't even last much more than a tenth of the original fans' lifespans, the replacements were, after all, not built to a specification but instead they were built to a cost (The accountants were in charge remember)

Now, look back at history...
Every bloom and all times of great improvement for the general population was generated by engineers and great engineering minds. No accountant ever managed to achieve this...

Every recession so far has been generated by accountants, no engineer can ever be blamed for that.

:cool:

.

cold.man
28-05-2012, 10:23 PM
haha quality post mate i like that lol :D true viking very true......

install monkey
28-05-2012, 10:30 PM
monkeys gonna tender for it -when its due for renewal- 2,999,998.73
accountants love figures not rounded up!! haha

dt8project
28-05-2012, 10:56 PM
grease up a fan?????? we don't need that.... put an end to that, we'll save money on that......yeah right, like a big customer of ours who reduced ppm checks on their big sites from once a week, to once a month, then to once every quarter, now its once a year....... all the sites are f#cked, dead compressors left to rot, blocked filters and drains, noisy fan motor bearings, cooked contactors........accountants, gotta love them:D

The Viking
28-05-2012, 11:20 PM
grease up a fan?????? we don't need that.... put an end to that, we'll save money on that......yeah right, like a big customer of ours who reduced ppm checks on their big sites from once a week, to once a month, then to once every quarter, now its once a year....... all the sites are f#cked, dead compressors left to rot, blocked filters and drains, noisy fan motor bearings, cooked contactors........accountants, gotta love them:D

Accountant #1:
"Look how well I done, I've saved 76.93% on our maintenance bill. That alone justified paying me 130K this year"
Accountant #2:
"I'm even better, I saved a further 66% on the maintenance cost. I demand 150K per annum!"
"Accountant #3:
"Hey, look at me. I virtually got rid of that horrible annual maintenance cost!! That justifies my 200K bonus"

All the above accountants, in chorus:
"Why did the customers stop using us"
"At least we can get loans for the new installs we need and write off that cost over 10 years so that it won't affect my figures this year"
"This year's figures are so bad because of previous decisions, we need to save more to make the figures look better"

"The bank wanted their money back, that's why we have gone bankrupt!"

:cool:

.

mad fridgie
29-05-2012, 12:48 AM
Engineers make big fortunes
Accountants turn big fortunes into little fortunes.

Per2012
30-05-2012, 11:10 AM
Hi All,

Just wanted to draw your attention to my jobs posted on here- looking to recruit in the W. Mids and Stoke for really good Refrigeration Engineers. Good, solid package (~40k), OT available. Please call/email if you would like to discuss more, thanks.

http://www.refrigeration-engineer.com/jobs/info_jobid_1790/refrigeration_engineer***42k_birmingham***.html

headgasket
30-05-2012, 02:48 PM
The pay looks good on paper, but only apply if you have no family, (4 days on 2 days off 4 days on nights etc) when would you get a real weekend off

Per2012
01-06-2012, 12:21 PM
Hi Headgasket- you're right, they pay is good for this climate. (I was recruiting for RE's last year @ 20-25k basic.)

jdunc2301
01-06-2012, 07:59 PM
grease up a fan?????? we don't need that.... put an end to that, we'll save money on that......yeah right, like a big customer of ours who reduced ppm checks on their big sites from once a week, to once a month, then to once every quarter, now its once a year....... all the sites are f#cked, dead compressors left to rot, blocked filters and drains, noisy fan motor bearings, cooked contactors........accountants, gotta love them:D

Know that!

We looked after a brand new Olympic size pool/gym complex, then the manufacturers guarantee ended and so did our PPMC visits, a few months later the Facilities Manager is in the local paper being recognised for keeping running costs low and saving the council money...

Here we are a few months later

2x splits require full strip cleans
2x VRV suspected short of gas
1x VRV all need strip cleaning
6x AHU all filters and belts and a couple of fans
3x Heat recovery units for poolside 2 of which have failed main compressors, and countless elec faults
3x seized solid pool pumps

But its ok the BMS system has had a PPM and the fun pool and slide still work.... Now the silly mare has got a 40k+ bill on her hands...or should i say the council tax paying average joe
:D

J

buddy
04-06-2012, 04:23 AM
Nah,
You are not going mad, it is the rest of the world...

What you have to remember is that us engineers are of a more evolved breed than the general population, we can intuitively see what todays actions will mean for tomorrow.
Us engineers has even come so far in the evolution that we can not only generate bullsh*t, we are also reasonable good at detecting it and separate it from reality.

Accountants on the other hand are quite backwards beings, they look at yesterday's results to make decisions about tomorrow.
Accountants will constantly generate bullsh*t, in fact most of them takes to generate bullsh*t in order to prove that they are worth their salaries. Unfortunately accountants believe that their bullsh*t is gospel and will go forth in hordes to follow said bullsh*t.

One example:
To an engineer a brick is worth about 0.30, 10.000 of them is therefore wort about 3.000.
To an accountant 10.000 bricks are worth anything up to 500.000 depending on where they are found and when.

Another example:
Back in 1931, when engineers ruled the world, there was an office block constructed in central Stockholm. The engineers designing this building carefully selected all the parts for the fresh air delivery system.
This system was so well designed that with a little greasing every so often, all the fans would keep on working as designed for a very long time.
In fact, they were working so well that they all were still fully operational when the accountants started ruling the world some 50 odd years later. But then something sad happens. In 1986 the accountants, now in charge, decide that it is too expensive to keep greasing the fans and stop to pay the engineers to perform this task.
3 years later, in 1989, the fans are completely worn out and has to be replaced, this is when yours truly enters the story...

The fans I fitted?
Nah, I bet they didn't even last much more than a tenth of the original fans' lifespans, the replacements were, after all, not built to a specification but instead they were built to a cost (The accountants were in charge remember)

Now, look back at history...
Every bloom and all times of great improvement for the general population was generated by engineers and great engineering minds. No accountant ever managed to achieve this...

Every recession so far has been generated by accountants, no engineer can ever be blamed for that.

:cool:

.

Great post.

sillycobra
05-06-2012, 09:31 PM
@ The Viking...

excellent post, pretty much sums it all up

Mr Nosey
08-06-2012, 09:49 PM
Phew some serious moaners on here blaming everyone but engineers, there is some very valid points..but a few bad engineers can break a contract...the worst engineer is the one with all the quals who uses his knowledge to by pass safety systems because he is too lazy to sort...the type of guy who when given the opportunity to make a difference in a store sits in the canteen..unfortunelty there is far to many out there..

JS have made a big mistake...the war is on between companies competing for engineers and the salary offer is increasing day by day....companies cannot sustain this.

Asda its all behind closed doors....I won,t even mention the standard...

Morrisons had the perfect set up they indentifed that if you get your install correct then your service contract will work...their new set up will save money in the short term....only

Tesco..... watch what happens over the next year I think there about to get it right.....

Its simple pay for your contract to keep the cabinets trading...more cabinets more sales....Contract should include for a minimum of 10 trainees to be on the books at all times...

jdunc2301
08-06-2012, 10:46 PM
Phew some serious moaners on here blaming everyone but engineers, there is some very valid points..but a few bad engineers can break a contract...the worst engineer is the one with all the quals who uses his knowledge to by pass safety systems because he is too lazy to sort...the type of guy who when given the opportunity to make a difference in a store sits in the canteen..

From what i have seen often the "good" engineers efforts can get diluted by the many poor engineers, i agree there's a fair share of bypass and run guys! Seen it myself, but often the guy sat in the canteen, is the engineer who has tried many a time to make a difference and it hasn't worked, unfortunately it's all well and good implementing a plan of maintenance etc and carrying out quality repairs...to then return to site and another engineer has undermined it by butchering the unit :D kinda makes you think...why bother! It's a viscious cycle..

J

FreezerGeezer
09-06-2012, 12:18 AM
How long does an APV oil fault take to reset once fixed?
About one coffee.

And while you could use that time to grease the bearings, check some sensors, or whatever - the coffee is an essential when you're doing 90-120Hr weeks.

We've all seen safeties bypassed & such, but I think there are times when to have to make a professional descision. i.e. are there other safeties that will afford some protection while you get a replacement, thus keeping the plant running & the client tolerable.
Leaving essential safeties bypassed for anything more than a day is unacceptable, of course.

Mr Nosey
09-06-2012, 09:30 PM
The problem with the JS contract is there is a sudden demand for engineers, companies are back to bums in seats employing known poor engineers...Js plan will eventually work however a lot of damage to their estate along with at least one company handing the contract back or having it taken of them will definately happen in the first 12 months..

The maintainer does not want to invest in Apprentices becuase of the volitle industry we work so the end user needs to invest....Js will have their own engineers eventually the time will depend on how clever they are...

Moneyhell
10-06-2012, 06:43 PM
From what i have seen often the "good" engineers efforts can get diluted by the many poor engineers, i agree there's a fair share of bypass and run guys! Seen it myself, but often the guy sat in the canteen, is the engineer who has tried many a time to make a difference and it hasn't worked, unfortunately it's all well and good implementing a plan of maintenance etc and carrying out quality repairs...to then return to site and another engineer has undermined it by butchering the unit :D kinda makes you think...why bother! It's a viscious cycle..

J

Looking at some of the things that get wired out, the people who have done it clearly know what they are doing (it takes some skills to bypass stuff) but I must say that in the end, it is quicker to just get stuff fixed once and for all.

jdunc2301
10-06-2012, 07:28 PM
Looking at some of the things that get wired out, the people who have done it clearly know what they are doing (it takes some skills to bypass stuff) but I must say that in the end, it is quicker to just get stuff fixed once and for all.

True true, im a genius...always bypassing stuff ;)

NIKK38
10-06-2012, 08:52 PM
The problem with the JS contract is there is a sudden demand for engineers, companies are back to bums in seats employing known poor engineers...Js plan will eventually work however a lot of damage to their estate along with at least one company handing the contract back or having it taken of them will definately happen in the first 12 months..

The maintainer does not want to invest in Apprentices becuase of the volitle industry we work so the end user needs to invest....Js will have their own engineers eventually the time will depend on how clever they are...

It's always the same after any shake up or change of contract.

Ex engineers get approached and asked to return with scant regard for why they left in the first place.

The major players are losing experienced engineers hand over fist and have no option other than to fill the void with anyone that applies for the job.

jdunc2301
10-06-2012, 09:08 PM
It's always the same after any shake up or change of contract.

Ex engineers get approached and asked to return with scant regard for why they left in the first place.

The major players are losing experienced engineers hand over fist and have no option other than to fill the void with anyone that applies for the job.

Im on a roll with jobs! I'll apply ;)

cold.man
10-06-2012, 09:15 PM
The sainsburys plant has been hacked at over the years and is going to take a while to get sorted. Be interesting to see if the work required doing gets approved.
But i must agree some of the bulls**t baffles brains link outs you see have been done by should we say can't be ar**d friday night engineers, who have lost the will to be good engineers, the crap engineers just say they have fixed it and it wasnt doing that when i was there....lol someone who knows what they are doing will pick up my recall.

chillerman2006
18-06-2012, 08:07 PM
alot of the stores are switching to CO2 now and most work carried out on the packs can be 2 man jobs this will put a stain on man power also.

Hi cold.man

you are 100% accurate with your post on 50/50 engineers

R's chillerman

Mr Nosey
23-06-2012, 07:40 PM
Co2 two man jobs why ?

Just get on and fix it, I get fed up with people quoting H and S. H and S is to safe guard us and stop idiots falling down open man hole covers. There is an army of engineers out there looking at excuses not to do the job they are being paid for..I wish they would just sod off and steal oxygen else where...

cold.man
23-06-2012, 11:16 PM
I take it your a hero then Mr Nosey? I don't know never met you?
Here is my opinon.
In most cases its the heros and loose cannons that have the accidents.

If you read the post it states SOME jobs CAN be two man jobs "which means some jobs not every job".

Part of what you have said I agree with you do get some people that try to find a way out of getting out of doing a particular job. Its either they can't do it and need someone to hold there hand or cant be bothered but thats not just Co2 and theres a difference between that bunch and the bunch below.

Some cases can be the fact that the job requires 2 people "so the job can be completed safley". We all work to earn money and go home at the end of the day. If I go to a job and can complete it on my own I will if I feel it would be safer with another pair of hands I will get another pair of hands don't care if managment don't like it. If they want to send a hero crack on no skin of my nose "not that they ever have to be honest". And just to set your mind at rest I always get the job done by the way If your in doubt.
I can honestly say not every job on a Co2 pack is a single man job. It all depends really on what the job is ie changing temprite oil filters I class that to be a two man job. Especially on the SCM packs the location of those temprites is bizarre. The confidence of the engineer doing the job this is a two bladed sword may look like i am contradicting myself but here we go. You either get an engineer who is a good engineer but does not have a large amount of co2 experience. I would say they have made the correct decision getting someone to help them. You get an engineer who lacks confidence in themselves across the board on Co2 and will never improve but get thrown in the deep end by there company but being a waste of oxygen I would say is a bit harsh.
So like I said before I dont know if your a hero "not saying you are and don't really care" I will just give you my opinon.
Sometimes its better to read the post first before churping up Mr Nosey. I can honestly say I have workd with some people whilst doing Co2 who are good engineers but Co2 is new to them and out of there comfort zone.
But they will have a go and need a bit of help and guidance maybe to the point of doing a "two man job with them". I certainly dont consider them a waste of oxgen just sensible.