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cikku
28-11-2005, 09:15 PM
Please can anyone tell me how you have to charge the R-410A refrigerant in a system from the low side as where I read always says to charge a system with R-410A with liquid not vapour, and as you know if you charge liquid into the lowside, there will be one unhappy compressor.
Thanks everyone

andrewuk
28-11-2005, 10:06 PM
you must take the 410 out of the cylinder in liquid form to insure that the blend of the refrigerants that make up the 410 are kept in their original mixture.
then you must throttle your gauges to ensure that the blend vaporises before it enters the compressor.
as you have taken the 410 out of the cylinder in liquid form, when it vaporises in the hoses going to the compressor the blend will maintain its correct mix .
thats the basics of it

cikku
29-11-2005, 08:21 AM
Thanks very much for help given. Just one more question please, when you said "you must throttle your gauges", can you kindly explain it for me. thanks again.

chemi-cool
29-11-2005, 09:30 AM
Hi cikku,

What he meant was, that by throttling, you control the flow so it will vaporise before reaching the compressor.

Chemi:)

cikku
29-11-2005, 10:16 AM
Correct me if I am wrong, so by throttling the gauges means to reduce the flow so the refrigerant vaporises. Thanks again folks

Abe
29-11-2005, 11:21 AM
a throttle is like an accelerator on a car.
On gauges its your shut off valve
You open and shut it continuosly, that is throttling

slingblade
30-11-2005, 02:50 PM
However, if you have to, charging R410A in vapour form works just fine.


Not too sure about that one mate. all 400 series gasses are blends as far as i was aware. charging vapour can affect mix percentages and system performance. i saw a freezer store charged with 404 by vapour and it was just about useless. system reclaimed and charged with liquid, problem solved. however if you were to charge a full cylinder by vapour then this would not be a problem as the mix would stay the same.

Throttling valves is a good way to charge (manifold and lines start to freeze) or use charge adaptor. srw do them for about £25. Im sure that experienced engs. will not need to waste the money though.
:)

cikku
01-12-2005, 09:02 AM
Slingblade, you mentioned a charge adaptor. can you tell me more about it. thanks

slingblade
01-12-2005, 09:16 PM
Slingblade, you mentioned a charge adaptor. can you tell me more about it. thanks

http://www.stridetool.com/tools/autospecialty/actoolaccess_01.html

quickest one i could find on the net. srw sell them but there is a log in process. dont know about dealers near you, but would guess there are some.:)

m o'b. no time right now but ill get back to you. promise xx.

cikku
02-12-2005, 02:31 PM
Thanks slingblade for the info. Very useful accessory for charging liquid into lowside.Just ordered one from HVACtool.com. Thanks again

fridge51
02-12-2005, 03:30 PM
[QUOTE][Correct, and ASHRAE composition tolerances for R-410A are +0.5,-1.5% for R-32 and +1.5,-0.5% for R-125
(from the 50/50 wt% nominal composition) which is not deviated from when vapour charging as demonstrated by repeated ARI experimentation. As a result of R410A's low glide (near azeotropic zeotrope) it can be charged as a liquid or vapour and systems can be simply topped off after leak repairs.
/QUOTE]

whilst in effect this is true, that r410a has a negligble glide (less than .17K ) it is wideley recognised by many manufacturers of refrigerants and machinery including carrier that whilst no special charging procedure is to be applied it is reccommended that it be charged as a liquid.

http://www.carrierab.se/produktblad/R410A.PDF

i also believe that that we as a trade should be promoting good working practice among engineers no matter what their level or their guesstimate level of expertise may be.

regards to all

daddymac
02-12-2005, 04:05 PM
Whilst we're talking R410a, I hear that using conventional copper flare joints in not advisable due to the high pressures involved. Apparently, the flares or flare nuts can split over time and all that expensive R410a goes west!

What is a good way of avoiding this? The only thing I can think of is using pre-formed flare to solder fittings and brazing them on, but is there a recognised practice for use with R410a pipework?

Abe
02-12-2005, 05:53 PM
Daddymec

In the Continent by law they have to use 2 " stek" type flare connections....

Peter knows the type

I wish they would make it mandatory here as well

slingblade
03-12-2005, 12:05 PM
Slingblade, you're a pissy little idiot, not just for your teenage British humour but also the poorly informed manner in which you make arse-umptions.

The 500 series are also blends, but without glide. A major distinction between the 400 and 500 series is glide.



Correct, and ASHRAE composition tolerances for R-410A are +0.5,-1.5% for R-32 and +1.5,-0.5% for R-125
(from the 50/50 wt% nominal composition) which is not deviated from when vapour charging as demonstrated by repeated ARI experimentation. As a result of R410A's low glide (near azeotropic zeotrope) it can be charged as a liquid or vapour and systems can be simply topped off after leak repairs.



Who's talking about 404? Dude, R404A is a very different refrigerant from R410A. You might as well start talking about Tony Blair's affair with deceptive persuasion techniques for all it contributes to a discussion on R410A.



Doh!!!


Well that certainly puts me in my place, however i thought the idea behind this website was to share opinions and work related experience so as to benifit eveyone. your comments and outright insults only seem to indicate your arrogance. having seen that you list your interests as one-upmanship and argueing without loss, i think you may even have a pesonality disorder. as i have no training in psychotherapy i enclose a link for a professional in your area maybe this will help you.

http://www.geoffcharley.com/psychotherapist.htm

It is very easy to insult people but this serves to help nobody E.G.-

you mention 500 series refrigerants. as this is not relevant to r410a, you may as well have said "i like my peanut butter sandwiches to be between 1 1/2 to 1 3/4 inches thick"

or

the spitting image puppets put it best when they released the single "ive never met a nice south african"


now you see these two statements serve no purpose and as such are irrelevant other than to prove the first point made.

as for charging r410a as liquid i have read many trade press articles stating that good practise is to charge liquid and not vapour, so in fact i think we are both correct.

regards
slingblade

Abe
03-12-2005, 12:25 PM
Slingbade

Any of the refrigerants

R134a
R404A
R410 A

Charge them in liquid.........
Put in a little at a time

410 usually is weighed in anyway,

The little bit of liquid "wont hurt" the compressor

:)


You know the funny things about life?

You can get bogged down with all the technical stuff one can dream of.........

Or.........you can take a simple easy peasy way, and still get there.....

So why strife???

slingblade
03-12-2005, 12:29 PM
No strife here abe. ive been charging plant for years. it was cikku who asked and i think between us all his problem is solved:) ;)

rbartlett
03-12-2005, 03:03 PM
Well that certainly puts me in my place, however i thought the idea behind this website was to share opinions and work related experience so as to benifit eveyone. your comments and outright insults only seem to indicate your arrogance. having seen that you list your interests as one-upmanship and argueing without loss, i think you may even have a pesonality disorder. as i have no training in psychotherapy i enclose a link for a professional in your area maybe this will help you.

http://www.geoffcharley.com/psychotherapist.htm

It is very easy to insult people but this serves to help nobody E.G.-

you mention 500 series refrigerants. as this is not relevant to r410a, you may as well have said "i like my peanut butter sandwiches to be between 1 1/2 to 1 3/4 inches thick"

or

the spitting image puppets put it best when they released the single "ive never met a nice south african"


now you see these two statements serve no purpose and as such are irrelevant other than to prove the first point made.

as for charging r410a as liquid i have read many trade press articles stating that good practise is to charge liquid and not vapour, so in fact i think we are both correct.

regards
slingblade


I think this is part of the 'blade' hijacking which has lead to this confusion.

However I don't remember the spitting image song but I do remember the fast show make-up lady 'nah offeense' ;-)

which is rather accurate in it's own way ..

http://www.bbc.co.uk/comedy/fastshow/characters/no_offence.shtml

cheers

richard

slingblade
03-12-2005, 04:25 PM
.












Well, sorry, idiot, but you're missing the point. Besides, none of what I have said being inconsistent with those articles I can go better than that following your line of reasoning, because it is also good practice to have a good vacuum before charging a system for the first time and since you didn't mention this my argument is more right than yours.

F*ucking P*rick![/QUOTE]


I never once mentioned charging a system for the first time, i just mentioned charging a system. of course a system vacuum to zero torr is good practise. i see no need for any argument at all, regardless of who can do the better. your use of profanity just shows your ignorance and lack of good vocabulary.

slingblade.

rbartlett
03-12-2005, 04:37 PM
A spade is a spade.

What I find even more amusing is that most times a Brit tries to call a spade a spade they get it wrong because they don't have sufficient specific in-depth understanding of whatever the matter at hand might be so they unwittingly knot themselves right up. Brits are better off skirting all issues from a safe and polite distance, it just suites them better.


If life here is so bad -heathrow is less than 40 minutes from your house...

However if you do a search on Slingblade you will find you have mixed him up with bladesling/clownblade.

http://www.refrigeration-engineer.com/forums/search.php?searchid=46067

you owe him an apology for the unnecessary outburst


cheers

richard

rbartlett
03-12-2005, 05:55 PM
I don't expect any success from your appealing to his sense of guilt :)

this is a real pity and because you again dodge the issue of your mistake and are unwilling to apologise.

This is not the mark of a mentally mature person -whatever the vocabulary you may wish to use to disguise it

an apology is required for your mistake. please rectify this


cheers

Richard

Abe
03-12-2005, 08:42 PM
Hi Aiyub !
Let me ask you politely what do you know about R 134a
and why do you personaly want to charge in liquid state
....think about it think about it is it a blend or what ?


To be quite honest Magic............I do not use R134a
I use R49 ( or is it called R413B)

I do use R404 and 410 A

Ive read that " charge in liquid state"

Who am I to argue...........?? :) if expert opinion says this.

I am no expert...........a mere follower

slingblade
04-12-2005, 01:57 PM
Listen, mate, it's simply quite clear that I don't care for "the" issue that seems to bother you. There's no mistake to be made with regards to "mate" - the typically condescending argument dismissal, amongst a few other creepy usages. You may or may not be annoyed by its use but when one is, well, one is, and being so is never a mistake. To me Slingblade's opening sentence reads "Not sure about that one, f*uckwit?"

Slingblade may or may not be the creator of those aliases... I may or may not prefer to error on the side of guessing it is possibly Slingblade himself. If I prefer to error on the side of probable affirmation it would be on account of the similarities I see in clarity of mind - also in fluidity of technical argument.



Lol, indeed, I don't care too, it is simply a matter of taste bound by no fact. People who talk crap in the realm of technical fact and principles are worse than people who take on aliases and champion the silliness of British humour anyway. Else I wouldn't have created those other aliases myself. I am especially riled by idiots who try to take me on in argument without even beginning to first think through the factualness, relevance or possibly contradicting implications of the argument they propose.

Sorry mate, not enough reason to even begin considering an apology. Besides, this would be a sickly diversion from the threads topic center.


I now refer you to a post i made entitled "LOL just twigged it" where i made an apolgy for my assumption that you were behind the use of other usernames than marc o'brien. when my apology was accepted by yourself this was an indication on your part that you had no role in using multiple usernames. you now freely admit that you "created those other ailases". this now leads me to recind my apology and also to point out the fact you are clearly a liar. i expect no apology from yourself as to do so would be far fetched in the extreme, i.e. i would die holding my breath waiting.

li·ar ( P ) Pronunciation Key (lr)
n.
One that tells lies.

regards
slingblade

frank
04-12-2005, 08:06 PM
I feel that this thread is going the way a previous thread went that resulted in Prof.Sporlan and others to stop visiting the Forum.

Come on chaps - call it a truce and both walk away winners.

Lets get back to being a friendly forum.

Abe
05-12-2005, 12:26 AM
Hi Aiuyb !

I am not saying that i am an expert but simply we are here to help each other so let me explain what is
R134a (tetrafluoroethan) single refrigerant you can charge it in vapor in liquid in whatever state you want
thanx for the attention


Magic

To be quite honest, I thought R134 could only be charged in liquid, but I know better now....

Thx for helping me on this one.
I appreciate itr

:)

slingblade
05-12-2005, 12:36 AM
I feel that this thread is going the way a previous thread went that resulted in Prof.Sporlan and others to stop visiting the Forum.

Come on chaps - call it a truce and both walk away winners.

Lets get back to being a friendly forum.

That sounds like good advice to me marc. also just for your information zero torr, "zero torr?", can be found at the lower end of the scale on any torr gauge. if you have never seen one of these then please tell me and i can provide further information. i have read through your post about the fallacy of using tears as a diversionary tactic and i must say that your statement about my original reply to you addressing you in a derogative manner is unfounded and again untrue. i also suggest that this is not proper conduct for somebody in a position of responsibility I.E. site moderator. and i respectfully ask that you refrain from further childish and insulting behaviour.

chillin out
05-12-2005, 01:32 AM
Magic

To be quite honest, I thought R134 could only be charged in liquid, but I know better now....

Thx for helping me on this one.
I appreciate itr


Although R134a can be charged either way, if you are going to be puting a lot of gas in a system it is best to charge with liquid, as the bottle will freeze dropping the pressure and leave you standing there with a hot air gun on it.

Chillin:) :)