" You breath this Gas for 5 seconds and then your dead"

[Grizzly]

That statement was said to me today by a guy with 30yrs service with BOC (Specialist Gases Supplier).
So you breathe this gas for 5 seconds and you die? Yep!
"No smell, No physical reaction At all!

I quote " It's the ideal way to commit suicide, as there is no pain, no discomfort, Nothing. You just cease, your body stops."
This guy has had 5 cases where people has purchased cylinders of it and committed suicide!

His words not mine!
Just google NITROGEN or as we know it OFN.

Theoretically if you were pressure testing and vented off into a small area where you were. Where you replace enough oxygen, you would just DIE!
No warning no discomfort. Apparently because the atmosphere is 70% Nitrogen the body does not react to its presence. And normally the increased Co2 you are breathing in would cause physical reactions.

Nitrogen is used to Humanely kill Terminally ill animals (Vets use it).

Just google it guys!

In 40 odd years I had never considered Nitrogen to be a issue.
Yeah! I knew it was an asphyxiant, however the statement made by the guy today, caused me to look again.
I certainly did not realise you get absolutely no warning!
Apparently a Lab Technician was killed in 2009, where he entered a basement storeroom. Which had some Liquid Nitrogen that had leaked out.
HE DIED!

I think I shall start giving OFN some extra respect from now on.
Grizzly




I googled this Gas and

[chemi-cool]

Serious thought for Tuesday night.

Out of curiosity, how long doe's it take?

[install monkey]

im going to a chemist to get the mrs some n2 throat spray!:D

[aramis]

I don’t think you mean gaseous nitrogen (N2) it is a known asphyxiant (lighter than air though) but not as deadly as Nitrogen Dioxide (N02, heavier than air) that produces nitric acid in your lungs, inhaled in even small amounts causes (not instant) death.

[Grizzly]

aramis;255397]I don’t think you mean gaseous nitrogen (N2)

I do!
OFN is 99.988% pure.
Just google Oxygen Free Nitrogen!
Which is the gas we fridge engineers use all the time.
Grizzly

[aramis]

Hmm, deadly I agree but 5 sec deadly? I need proof, so try it and we'll anxiously wait your next post!






... I didn't say on any living mamal!

[stufus]

Sounds like one of Mrs Insall Monkeys farts,except they smell

Cheers
Stu

[Grizzly]

Hmm, deadly I agree but 5 sec deadly? I need proof, so try it and we'll anxiously wait your next post!


After you Sir, I insist!

I am only quoting what was said to me, 5 or 10 seconds is immaterial really as apparently there are no

Physical indications of what is going on.

Therefore I though it was worthy of discussing, but apparently not!

[monkey spanners]

I do know someone who nearly passed out and was pulled to safety when letting the ofn out a vrf they had been pressure testing.(not me...)

Thanks for the reminder Grizzly! Often we get complacent with ofn....

[aramis]

I tried on a couple of spiders. They went stiff after 15 seconds.

The hard part was to keep them in the jar!

[Magoo]

Hi Grizzly.
a seriously scary thing that most forget about. On new installs I use muliple racks of nitrogem for pressure testing, a rack contains around 20 bottles of nitrogen all commoned up. Fortunately outside so when dropping charge/ pressure test it is outside.
Thanks for the warning /reminder.

[RSTC]

Always good to hear reminders like this.

Not likely that you would discharge a bottle accidentally (the noise alone would warn you) but venting off after a pressure test or brazing in a confined space or plant room is dangerous

[james10]

I have been told of this issue a few times, and its also the main reason they no longer use OFN to purge silo's on large petro-chem sites.
I did once raise this issue on the forum but i was imediately shot down by another member, maybe as a more respected member is now raising this it might be noted.
Just to add to the vetenry use, it had been rumoured that some states in the US were researching it as an alterintive gas for execution's as it's apparently more humane,

[aramis]

I’m not trying to shoot anybody down: N2 is dangerous as a gas and even more as liquid, no doubt!

But the spider experiment was inconclusive. They were gone this morning!

They probably fooled the experimenter and left to live happy ever after or another bug ate them leaving no trace.

Nitrogen is not listed as toxic neither by OSHA nor IARC, if it caused death in 5 seconds it definitely should be and should be reported in all MSDS.

[monkey spanners]

Its not that its toxic, just that if you are breathing 100% nitrogen you are not getting any oxygen and so will soon be dead...
As the air is already mostly nitrogen our bodies don't notice a few more % so it sneaks up on you before you know it.

Even if you are not convinced it would wise to treat nitrogen with caution just in case!

[aramis]

Death by asphyxia takes from 2 to 4 minutes in normal persons but you get warnings (like high heartbeat rate, nausea, dizziness).

Death happens only if the person is neither able to reach a ventilated area nor warn anybody around him.

[james10]

The n2 affects the body was described to me as someone flicking a switch off in your brain, you get no
warning or symptoms as you would with say refrigerant you simply drop dead

[monkey spanners]

Death by asphyxia takes from 2 to 4 minutes in normal persons but you get warnings (like high heartbeat rate, nausea, dizziness).

Death happens only if the person is neither able to reach a ventilated area nor warn anybody around him.

Interesting reading,

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nitrogen_asphyxiation


(http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nitrogen_asphyxiation)http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=f2ItJe2Incs

[aramis]

Interesting reading,...


Interesting indeed!

But this only asserts the fact that death cannot occur in 5 seconds.

Lack of suffocation also happens with other gases like CO2, CO because your lungs work at normal pressure.

But your brain tells your heart to pump faster when it senses lack of oxygen in the blood, and produces headache and dizziness.

If this were not so, you would hear of many more deaths caused by N2.

[Grizzly]

Interesting indeed!

But this only asserts the fact that death cannot occur in 5 seconds.

Lack of suffocation also happens with other gases like CO2, CO because your lungs work at normal pressure.

But your brain tells your heart to pump faster when it senses lack of oxygen in the blood, and produces headache and dizziness.

If this were not so, you would hear of many more deaths caused by N2.

You are in an argumentative mood aramis.
please accept what myself and others are saying.
Basically because there are no side effects and yes euthanasia sites even do suicide hoods.
Scary I no but as i originally said.
Because you don't suffer the effects you are stating, read some more and you will begin to understand!
My reason for posting is just to inform what I have been told and what I am reading.
You can disagree all you want, hey I am going to look at my usage with more informed eyes!

What you choose is your choice, but don't dispute what we are saying Please.
Unless you can prove it and not with spiders.

James you got my vote anytime.

Grizzly

[aramis]

I accept your post is a very useful reminder of the dangers of the trade, for all of us!

Just please read the “Physiology” section of the link in Monkey Spanners enlightening post.

Cheers!

[Grizzly]

Aramis.
Thanks for pointing me in the correct direction.
I found this in the first few lines.

Nitrogen is a colorless, odorless and tasteless gas that constitutes approximately 78 percent of the Earth's atmosphere. As such, the subject would detect no abnormal sensation This leads to asphyxiation (http://www.refrigeration-engineer.com/wiki/Asphyxiation) without the painful and traumatic feeling of suffocation

Accidental nitrogen asphyxiation causes about 8 deaths per year in the United States,[3] (http://www.refrigeration-engineer.com/forums/#cite_note-2) which is asserted to be more than from any other industrial gas. For example in 1981, shortly before the launch of the first Space Shuttle mission (http://www.refrigeration-engineer.com/wiki/STS-1), two technicians lost consciousness and one of them died after they entered the Orbiter aft compartment which was pressurized with pure nitrogen as a precaution against fire.[4] (http://www.refrigeration-engineer.com/forums/#cite_note-3)
A laboratory assistant died in Scotland in 1999, apparently from asphyxiation, after liquid nitrogen (http://www.refrigeration-engineer.com/wiki/Liquid_nitrogen) spilled in a basement storage room

Which is the bit that scares me!
Grizzly

[chemi-cool]

Well Grizzly, you can always carry a bird in a small cage to help you detect the nitrogen, like they used to do in older days in the mines.
On the other hand, you can buy a nitrogen detector.

[halfcan]

good job that every single engineer in the world has been trained up and can deal with it and transport it in a safe way ;) haha

[RSTC]

I would also note the similarity between oxygen and ofn bottles is a very serious risk (particularly oxygen bottles with 'N' written on them), albeit for different reasons.

[chillerman2006]

Grizzly

I think I owe you some beers, as what your really saying is

'I can humanely bump off the mother in-law and claim all her wads of $ tomorrow and it will just be classed by the coroners inquest as death by natural causes' :eek:

Grizzly, your da man

R's chillerman

[Grizzly]

Grizzly

I think I owe you some beers, as what your really saying is

'I can humanely bump off the mother in-law and claim all her wads of $ tomorrow and it will just be classed by the coroners inquest as death by natural causes' :eek:

Grizzly, your da man

R's chillerman

You read the bit about no unnatural signs of death as well!

Someone else that reads the small print.

Grizzly

[Magoo]

Hi Grizzly,
cryo freezing tunnels here are usually supplied by BOC, they waft out clouds of the stuff. Little to naff all ventilation and zero warning signs. Cryo tunnels use tonnes of liquid nitrogen weekly.
Scary thought. Is there any specific articles I can quote to processors using tunnels.

[Grizzly]

Hi Magoo.
I will have a scout about and see what I can find for you to use?
Grizzly

[PaulZ]

Hi Grizzly
Thanks for bringing this to our attention I must admit I had never considered it to be dangerous.
I have gone through the MSDS on nitrogen and there are many references to asphyxiation, under Hazard Alert - in high concentrations may cause asphyxiation, First Aid - Victim may not be aware of asphyxiation, Other Information - Asphyxiant in high concentrations, Do not breathe gas.
Just goes to show we need to read the MSDS's and supplier info very closely.
I don't think it matters whether it takes 5 secs or 5 mins it can be dangerous in confined spaces.
Paul

[Scottyice]

I've worked on Ammonia/CO2 refrigeration plants and CO2 can definately cause harm and death within 15-30 seconds, but you feel quite light headed.

OFN is the same as CO2 as you cannot smell, but I think you would feel the effects as with CO2 - light headed, but your bodys reaction if theres lack of oxygen is to lie down, so yes its very possible

[Grizzly]

Google it Scotty.
You are thinking exactly what I thought. But you DO NOT have any side effects.

DON'T TAKE MY WORD FOR IT JUST READ SOME OF THE LINKS THAT OTHERS HAVE POSTED.
Grizzly

[jdunc2301]

Jeesh everyone so argumentative....

Grizzly your right i dont think the 5 second thing is correct but its still a dangerous Gas to be working with in confined spaces, im sure i watched a program a while back on the BBC, it was about finding good methods of killing death row criminals, and they intensively looked at OFN.

They set up a fairly simple rig and explained the process but i cant remember it exactly, from memory i think you pass out first and then your done!

Something is telling me that it was said to be a quite nice way to go....feel a sense of euphoria etc!

Good point though mate, just a shame about some reactions, its always good to remind other Engineers that even the most commonly used Gas is acyually a bad ass!

[jdunc2301]

I tried on a couple of spiders. They went stiff after 15 seconds.

The hard part was to keep them in the jar!

Love this guy killing spiders with his N2 :D

[devlin maguire]

Good God where did the last hour go,

[damonhuang]

That means all oxygen free ultra high purity gas are lethal as an asphyxiant

[Tycho]

A typical human breathes between 12 and 20 times per minute at a rate primarily influenced by carbon dioxide concentration, and thus pH, in the blood. With each breath, a volume of about 0.6 liters is exchanged from an active lung volume (tidal volume + functional residual capacity) of about 3 liters. Normal Earth atmosphere is about 78% nitrogen, 21% oxygen, and 1% argon, carbon dioxide, and other gases. After just two or three breaths of nitrogen, the oxygen concentration in the lungs would be low enough for some oxygen already in the bloodstream to exchange back to the lungs and be eliminated by exhalation. Crude simulation of oxygen transport through the lungs and bloodstream suggests that the partial pressure of oxygen in arterial blood would be about 50% of saturation 1 minute after switching gases and would reach zero within 3 minutes.

Unconsciousness in cases of accidental asphyxia can occur within 1 minute. Loss of consciousness results from critical hypoxia, when arterial oxygen saturation is less than 60% (Fisher n.d.). "At oxygen concentrations [in air] of 4 to 6%, there is loss of consciousness in 40 seconds and death within a few minutes" (DiMaio & DiMaio 2001:231). As this procedure provides an atmosphere completely devoid of oxygen, the sequence of effects should be expected to occur even more quickly. At an altitude over 43,000 ft (13,000 m), where the ambient oxygen concentration is equivalent to 3.6% at sea level, an average individual can perform flying duties efficiently for only 9 to 12 seconds without oxygen supplementation (Fisher n.d.). The US Air Force trains air crews to recognize their individual subjective signs of approaching hypoxia. Some individuals experience headache, dizziness, fatigue, nausea, or euphoria, but some become unconscious without warning (Fisher n.d.). Equivalent training is unlikely for a condemned individual, making unconsciousness without warning probable, although as much as a 30 second warning is possible.

Loss of consciousness may be accompanied by convulsions (Fisher n.d.) and is followed by cyanosis and cardiac arrest. About 7 minutes of oxygen deprivation causes death of the cerebral cortex and presumably of the medulla oblongata, which controls breathing and heart action.

[Aper Willy]

Koolstofdioxide heeft de volgende effecten op mensen, gemeten naar volumepercentage in lucht:

0,039 % Koolstofdioxidegehalte in de atmosfeer op zeeniveau.
0,15 % Binnenlucht[bron?] (http://www.refrigeration-engineer.com/wiki/Wikipedia:Bronvermelding)
0,3 % MIC-waarde (http://www.refrigeration-engineer.com/w/index.php?title=MIC-waarde&action=edit&redlink=1)
0,5 % MAC-waarde (http://www.refrigeration-engineer.com/wiki/MAC-waarde)
1 % Slecht geventileerde drukke (werk) ruimte. Sufheid bij langere blootstelling.
1,5 % Versnellen en verdiepen van de ademhaling.
2 % Licht narcotisch effect, toename van bloeddruk en polssnelheid, afname van het gehoor.
4-5 % Koolstofdioxidegehalte in uitgeademde lucht. Veroorzaakt naast bovengenoemde effecten ook duizeligheid, verwarring en een gevoel van ademnood bij langere blootstelling. Uiteindelijk raakt men bewusteloos. Vanaf een concentratie van 5% kunnen ook paniekaanvallen (http://www.refrigeration-engineer.com/wiki/Paniekaanval) voorkomen,[7] (http://www.refrigeration-engineer.com/forums/#cite_note-6) door de invloed van kooldioxide op de amygdala (http://www.refrigeration-engineer.com/wiki/Amygdala).
8 % Hoofdpijn, zweten, verlies van gezichtsvermogen en krampen. Bewusteloosheid na 5 tot 10 minuten, gevolgd door de dood na 30 minuten tot een uur.
20 % en hoger: Bewusteloosheid na enkele ademteugen, snel gevolgd door ademstilstand. Dood na enkele minuten.
Dus een groot lek bij hoge druk en iedereen blijft in het warenhuis.
Beter een gezonde aarde dan een aarde met mensen erop.

[Aper Willy]

Carbon dioxide has the following effects on humans, measured by percentage by volume in air:



0,039% carbon dioxide levels in the atmosphere at sea level. 0,15% indoor air[source?] (http://www.microsofttranslator.com/bv.aspx?from=nl&to=en&a=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.refrigeration-engineer.com%2Fwiki%2FWikipedia%3ABronvermelding)0,3 % MIC-value (http://www.microsofttranslator.com/bv.aspx?from=nl&to=en&a=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.refrigeration-engineer.com%2Fw%2Findex.php%3Ftitle%3DMIC-waarde%26action%3Dedit%26redlink%3D1) 0,5 % MAC-value (http://www.microsofttranslator.com/bv.aspx?from=nl&to=en&a=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.refrigeration-engineer.com%2Fwiki%2FMAC-waarde) 1% poorly ventilated busy (work) space. Drowsiness at longer exposure. 1.5% speed up and deepen of breathing. 2% Light narcotic effect, increase in blood pressure and pulse rate, decrease of hearing. paniekaanvallen]4-5% carbon dioxide content in exhaled air. In addition to the above effects also caused dizziness, confusion and a feeling of breathing at longer exposure. Eventually one becomes unconscious. paniekaanvallen]From a concentration of 5% may also prevent panic attacks (http://www.microsofttranslator.com/bv.aspx?from=nl&to=en&a=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.refrigeration-engineer.com%2Fwiki%2FPaniekaanval),[7] (http://www.microsofttranslator.com/bv.aspx?from=nl&to=en&a=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.refrigeration-engineer.com%2Fforums%2F%23cite_note-6)by the influence of carbon dioxide on the amygdala (http://www.microsofttranslator.com/bv.aspx?from=nl&to=en&a=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.refrigeration-engineer.com%2Fwiki%2FAmygdala)[/COLOR][/COLOR]. 8% headache, sweating, loss of eyesight and cramps. Unconsciousness after 5 to 10 minutes, followed by the death after 30 minutes to an hour. 20% and above: Unconsciousness after some breath breathe breath quickly, followed by arrest. Death after a few minutes. So a large leak at high pressure and everyone remains in the Department store.
Better than a healthy Earth an Earth with people on it.