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View Full Version : Endocube actually works. I wish I would have thought of it!!!!







mechanicalman
23-02-2012, 02:12 PM
:mad: I would say I am angry, probably upset that the simple things in life are straight in front of you, but someone else thinks of it and you don't:mad:

We have just started installing the endocube based on information we found online www.endocubeinfo.com and then spoke to a few other people the company put me in contact with, and it seems this product could really take off.

my boss was concerned that we would lose business as the reduction in starts on the compressor and wear & tear they explain would damage our servicing side of the business, however the benefits have been good for us, as our clients seen to feel we have helped them. we actually have been given two new clients as references.

We like others were skeptics on another gadget making claims, but we have only had good experiences with this technology.

mechanicalman
23-02-2012, 02:22 PM
After I posted my last thread this morning I found this online. which I thought I would share. http://www.sodexo.com/en/Images/583372_case_study_endocube.pdf this company have obviously done sum serious testing. The results are incredible.

chemi-cool
23-02-2012, 02:53 PM
And what is the price of the little magic box?

Sandro Baptista
23-02-2012, 05:14 PM
With or without the temperature sensor?
Is the sensor a Pt-100?

mechanicalman
23-02-2012, 08:10 PM
We have seen a vast reduction in cycles by placing the sensor directly into the cube. also we have see that the equipment runs slightly colder, allowing us to adjust the thermostat as explained on the company website.

on the coolers the defrost cycles are pushed out, and we have seen a reduction in this area also. the main thing is the stability of the food. we are not getting any alarm now we are basing on food temps instead of air. clients seem to be happy, and that is the main thing.

mechanicalman
23-02-2012, 08:12 PM
The air probe is placed directly into the endocube.

mad fridgie
23-02-2012, 10:08 PM
How old is this, about 20years ago, it was known as a plastic chicken.
We did the same thing by (especially for alarms) by placing the temp sensor in a bottle of saline.

NH3LVR
24-02-2012, 12:55 AM
What makes me think mechanicalman has an interest in Endocube?

mechanicalman
24-02-2012, 01:24 AM
We do have an interest. we have recently started as a dealer representative. but we want to know more on rack systems and not just walk-ins do you know of any application in supermarkets? as the only information we have received is from Europe and not the U.S

frigi
24-02-2012, 03:17 AM
The Endocube, does work we have been using it with out clients in supermarkets in both medium and low temperature solutions. With the Endcube we have been getting fantastic results both in reduction in compressor cycles and energy savings

Magoo
24-02-2012, 03:39 AM
How old is this, about 20years ago, it was known as a plastic chicken.
We did the same thing by (especially for alarms) by placing the temp sensor in a bottle of saline.

Hi MF
we are from same generation, I recall slapping lump of that gap filler putty stuff on a stat bulb in a chiller in a kitchen of a cafe where the door was opened most of the time , and same around the thermometor bulb for a chef that gave me lots of greif

mechanicalman
24-02-2012, 04:29 AM
The rubber chicken was introduced by Marks & Spencer in the UK if I am correct. the product was well ahead of it's time. the problem was it used to much shelf space. I think this product deserves it merits. we were really skeptical on the information we were given. but after doing our own testing on a walk-in freezer and a 12 x 8 cooler we did see good results on the cycling reduction, and KWH also. the amazing part was we were able to get down to one defrost in a 168 hours. madness.

mad fridgie
24-02-2012, 05:46 AM
I am not going to knock the concept, because it has been round for years. But there are also known problems,
especially if there is a larger TD on the evap, you can get surface freezing, product de-humidification. many of the modern controllers, have anti cycle, over run and a number of fancy PID loops.
The power savings, well 30% it must of been a pigs ear to start with. It maybe possible to save a fraction.
Defrost, nothing to do with it, If the system is running longer, then the SST will drop with the air temp causing greater ice formation, if room is above 0C then the longer off time, will aid in defrosting.
In our large systems, we install a product probe in conjunction various air probes,
Best of luck with your venture.

Grizzly
24-02-2012, 07:22 AM
Mechanicalman.

Are you trying to sell this idea to us or improve your sales pitch?

Either are not really what the site is about are they!

Grizzly

mad fridgie
24-02-2012, 08:00 AM
If I was a betting man (well I am but do not tell her indoors), I would say we have a multiple personality on this thread. "Scary" wwoooooooooooooo

Sandro Baptista
24-02-2012, 10:38 AM
With or without the temperature sensor?
Is the sensor a Pt-100?

Mechanicalman,
Does the cost already has the temperature sensor? If it has what kind of sensor is it?

mechanicalman
24-02-2012, 06:56 PM
Grizzly, no I am not so sorry if it looks like I am pitching. it is just we have been through this so many times with people making claims to the latest gadget to work wonders. it is just as a skeptic and never really paying much attention to what people make claims too, we have actually seen something which we thought was just a box filled with a substance work. my boss was more upset that something so simple worked. I think it came across as you say like a pitch, but I suppose the fact we have seen it works was m ore of a wow factor as like you, we have seen so many so called wow factor technologies fall on their face when tested.

Segei
25-02-2012, 04:25 PM
I think that we talked about this device before. However, name was ecube.
Any energy savings can be calculate or estimated. I always ask people to show the numbers. Numbers how they've got this savings. However, they always show how much they saved. How did they get 15-30% of energy savings? If you tell me that 2+2=5, I will not believe. It doesn't matter how many tests you have done. However, if you or somebody else show estimation of these energy savings, this can be topic for discussion.

mechanicalman
25-02-2012, 06:19 PM
The company universal master products who manufacturers the ecube & endocube now only sell it under endocube in the U.S they were able to send me 30 different case studies, from independent companies who have done independent testing. I have tested myself and seen results which are positive. also the case studies they provided are all data graphs which I cannot dispute, as graphs don't lie.

Grizzly
25-02-2012, 08:03 PM
Mechanicalman.
Thanks for your sincere explanation. You have won me over as to why you posted.
As to the "Product" Time will tell.
Statistics can be and often are manipulated.
As a sceptic also, I await the industry approval that must surely follow?
Surely someone else on your side of the pond feels the same?
Grizzly

mechanicalman
25-02-2012, 11:04 PM
The inventor is in a place called Dorset. is that close to you? sorry my geography of England isn't too sharp. maybe you should get more of an explanation from them directly. I can only go by my own experience and what we have seen and what we have been shown. I just think it is something worth looking into more, as the industry is leaning towards food temps more than air here in the U.S

frigi
26-02-2012, 12:54 PM
I am also working with the endoCube, and have had fantastic results with it .
My clients have all been very happy

Segei
26-02-2012, 01:27 PM
First. I asked for the number not graphs. Number don't lie. On the graphs you can put whatever you want.
Second. Surprisingly, people do a few first posts only about one issue.;)

monkey spanners
26-02-2012, 02:03 PM
So its like a blob you put the probe in?

ProbeBlob™

mechanicalman
26-02-2012, 03:37 PM
Frigi thank you for backing me on this. All I was doing was making people aware of what we are seeing. I hope with the success you have had other may listen to you. we all work in the same industry and look for ways to improve. but whenever one of us makes a quote on something we seem to think works for us, other shoot it down. I am pleased you are using this method, and you support my claims. maybe those who need more information or proof should contact the people at Endocube. maybe then the time we take to offer suggestions to others will be not shot down in flames.

Segei
26-02-2012, 06:25 PM
So no numbers.
I think that when people sell energy savings devices to the customers they should be able to explain(and proof by the numbers) how they work and how customers get energy savings. No explanation on this post, no explanation on manufacturer website.
I'm focused on energy savings for many years and I know that it isn't easy to save 5-10% energy. When people claim that "magic"device save 20-30-40% energy, this is snake oil.
Actually this device isn't so magic. Usually, compressor controlled by pressurestat or thermostat. If we increase differential of these devices they will do the same job as ecube or endocube. Where is energy savings?

mad fridgie
26-02-2012, 08:57 PM
Now lets look at this using engineering principles, and see if the savings are even possible never mind practical.
If we take a cold room. We all know over the short time the load (cooling requirement) goes up and down. Over a longer period, the load averages itself out. So if a room, requires "x" amount over time, then reducing "x' would equate to to higher average room temp, increasing "x" would reduce the average room temp. This product in no way effects the amount of non system energy infiltration. No savings can be here. However, the product or I should the influence of the product may indicate that the cool room, has been running to cold, and keeping the internal of the product colder than need be. This relates to awareness of product core temps.
Any argument so far.

monkey spanners
26-02-2012, 09:19 PM
I think the potential savings come from fewer starts so fewer inrush current peaks. But it makes you wonder why eliwell dixell etc don't just make a more blobby air probe for the same effect.

mad fridgie
26-02-2012, 09:51 PM
I think the potential savings come from fewer starts so fewer inrush current peaks. But it makes you wonder why eliwell dixell etc don't just make a more blobby air probe for the same effect.
Correct, savings are made by reducing in rush, by how much?
Lets Look, if we pick a comp say 1Kw or in one hour of running it would use 1KwHr, In rush Kw would be 8Kw.
If we said that in rush lasted a full second, to save 1% in power you would need save 123 extra starts per day. (5 an hour). But the saving from starting in not really about the in rush, but about the period between when the comp starts and when refrigeration effect starts. Lets say a minute. Ok this is looking a bit better, to save 1% we would need to reduce the number of starts a day by 14.
These figures are are in favour of the device, (1 minute without refrigeration effect would trip most coldrooms of on LP)
Most controllers know have anti cycle timer, hysterisis control, and various offsets which in effect are doing a similar thing.

mad fridgie
26-02-2012, 10:33 PM
Now lets look on the influence on the refrigeration cycle. This product in effect is the same as having a large differential on a thermostat. To have have long on and off periods, you will have larger swings in internal air temperature. So on make on rise of the stat, you will have a higher SST which will give a better COP, but as it runs we produce an over shoot on air temperature control (the air becomes somewhat colder), The SST drops and COP reduces. The energy mass balance must still remain. Without going into in depth dynamic production, I would say for ease, this 6 of one or half a dozen of the other. "Not change in benefit either way"
Is there any negatives?
"Yes"
This related to the coolrooms "product quality"
Large sustained temperature swings (which must happen) change the rooms internal water vapour pressure, these changes, in simple terms increases the rate a which a product dries out. Withering of vegies, fruits and salads. Crusting of meats, and freezing burning of frozen products. To what degree depends upon time in storage, the original design.
So based upon engineering it is possible to make a saving, in the range of a couple of %, benefits can be on life time due to reduced starts, but should be in conjuction with a anti cycle timer (because refrigeration is just more than a single thermostat control)
For long term storage, product quality will decrease.
Best suited to system that have high refrigeration capacity to volume ratio. (Blast chiller/freezer)
Or I am wrong! If so I look forward to the engineering proof.

mad fridgie
26-02-2012, 10:35 PM
So its like a blob you put the probe in?

ProbeBlob™

How much for one of your monkey??? See you on dragon's den!

mechanicalman
26-02-2012, 11:19 PM
The monkeys are being used by large Supermarket chains such every store owned by Morrison's in the UK Sodexo Global. just received HACCP certification in Australia. also NSF certified in the U.S for Refrigeration Control. major hotel chain such as Hilton International have it on the blue ribbon list. contact the company on the website www.Endocubeinfo.com this isn't our monkey. we just buy it and use it. maybe if you visit the website and read the information it would click and you would understand what you are arguing against.

mad fridgie
26-02-2012, 11:48 PM
The monkeys are being used by large Supermarket chains such every store owned by Morrison's in the UK Sodexo Global. just received HACCP certification in Australia. also NSF certified in the U.S for Refrigeration Control. major hotel chain such as Hilton International have it on the blue ribbon list. contact the company on the website www.Endocubeinfo.com (http://www.Endocubeinfo.com) this isn't our monkey. we just buy it and use it. maybe if you visit the website and read the information it would click and you would understand what you are arguing against.
Firstly i am not arguing, I am engineering!
I have checked out the site.
I have no doubt that it is food safe, and can be used as part of a control system. I have no doubt that the plastic used better represent foods products than other plastics.
Neither have dissed the product, I did say the concept has been around for years.
I have clearly shown where and how energy is save, if i am incorrect, then please prove this to me at an engineering level.
Greater improvements may be made on a bad set up system, but there is no excuse for a badly set up system!
The strength of the product is in the strength of the marketing, not in the performance.
If I am wrong, I will accept this, but until engineering proof can be given to the claims, I reserve the right to be right.
PS Nothing wrong with a 2-5% saving,

mechanicalman
27-02-2012, 12:42 AM
The product is mimicking a shelf fish, the density is made to measure at 10mm to 15mm below the surface. when you air temperature probe is placed into the endocube, the probe is encased by the food wax. this actually has been proven that equipment will then run 3 degrees Fahrenheit colder.

It is then you can turn the set point up again to the original position, and Lockhead Martin has calculated the product will save 6% per degree on a medium temp and 8% on low temp per degree.

Yes you do reduce the compressor on and off which reduces spiking, but also longer run time and longer off times. this also means that there is no build up on medium temp equipment, so there is no defrost cycles required on medium temp equipment as it seems to do a natural defrost.

I spoke to an engineer last week who said he has had NO build up on the coils whatsoever, and has taken a 10% reduction off the whole plant from using this product. so the refrigeration was actually compensating savings for the generators, heating, lighting etc. this engineer has 37 years behind him, and said he has never found a product what works, and said he cannot find one thing that makes him unsure of what he is physically seeing.

Try it and make you own assessment. No harm in trying, and then you may be able to right what you have seen instead of me trying to convince you.

Don't get me wrong, I was exactly like you on this until I got one in my hand and did my own trial.

mad fridgie
27-02-2012, 01:01 AM
I have studied the results, in some depth as requested.
The biggest single saving is increasing the thermostat temperature, the product is actually warmer! This increased product temp may well be within guide lines.
Is some of the cases shown the actual run time has increased, and the drawn power is less. This again indicates influence of ambient temperature on refrigeration condensing pressures.
Results indicate that compressor optimization has been completed, "they fixed a problem"
I had used a ratio of 8-1 for my in rush calcs, they shown only in rush of 3 to 1, but lets you believe that this in rush lasts over a long period.
The tests are un-scientific as there is no reference to the required load profile and influence they may effect refrigeration performance.

mad fridgie
27-02-2012, 01:25 AM
The product is mimicking a shelf fish, the density is made to measure at 10mm to 15mm below the surface. when you air temperature probe is placed into the endocube, the probe is encased by the food wax. this actually has been proven that equipment will then run 3 degrees Fahrenheit colder.
Agree
It is then you can turn the set point up again to the original position, and Lockhead Martin has calculated the product will save 6% per degree on a medium temp and 8% on low temp per degree.
Disagree, to a new set point position (higher normal internal product temp), agree basically with lockhead
Yes you do reduce the compressor on and off which reduces spiking, but also longer run time and longer off times. this also means that there is no build up on medium temp equipment, so there is no defrost cycles required on medium temp equipment as it seems to do a natural defrost.
Historically, off cycle defrost was standard, but the need for close control (perceived or real), had meant that some form of timed defrost is required (aux heat or natural)
I spoke to an engineer last week who said he has had NO build up on the coils whatsoever, and has taken a 10% reduction off the whole plant from using this product. so the refrigeration was actually compensating savings for the generators, heating, lighting etc. this engineer has 37 years behind him, and said he has never found a product what works, and said he cannot find one thing that makes him unsure of what he is physically seeing.

Try it and make you own assessment. No harm in trying, and then you may be able to right what you have seen instead of me trying to convince you.
I have used similar products and technequies, for various reasons, and do use the a direct product method in some circumstances (a special temp sensor placed inside a product)
Don't get me wrong, I was exactly like you on this until I got one in my hand and did my own trial.

Thank you, for trying to understanding your product.

In away this is a backward step, in the past system had a large diffs on the thermostat. The same results.
But the need for closes control and the resulting product quality became paramount.

The saving them self donot come directly from the product, but from the awareness that many refrigeration applications are running colder than need be.

Many moons ago, we had "the refrigeration industry" issues with environmental health (govt dept), they would turn up at restaurant or the like at the busiest time, place their thermometer in the air of the fridge. WOW just about all failed every time. We over time instructed them to place the thermometer in some product. WOW now they passed.

I hope that you can see the product itself does not doing anything (short cycling excluded), apart from bring true awareness. it is the knowing that you can turn up the temp and keep the product within regulations.

mechanicalman
27-02-2012, 05:12 AM
Yes the company who manufacture Endocube also have a patent for Endotherm, a Glycol based thermometer which reads food temperature. this is used on in stall and after installs to see what the food is reading. this is what is used to make adjustments. look they gave me a list of engineers to talk to from reputable companies with many years behind them. they all have had positive results. we tried to dismiss the claims, but once we got one in our hands and did our own testing using a Fluke logger. we was pleasantly surprised. everything your saying we thought of the sames. but we were wrong.

mad fridgie
27-02-2012, 06:43 AM
Yes the company who manufacture Endocube also have a patent for Endotherm, a Glycol based thermometer which reads food temperature. this is used on in stall and after installs to see what the food is reading. this is what is used to make adjustments. look they gave me a list of engineers to talk to from reputable companies with many years behind them. they all have had positive results. we tried to dismiss the claims, but once we got one in our hands and did our own testing using a Fluke logger. we was pleasantly surprised. everything your saying we thought of the sames. but we were wrong.
I do not think you have read what i have written, there is nothing wrong, I proved that energy savings could be made, i have not shown what sayings are made by increasing the product temperature, I left that to Lockheed.
I disagree with the testing methods (One of the things i do for a living). Testing relies upon repeatable conditions. Who is to say that the test results are "not selective" Non showed consecutive days. If this only takes 5 mins to fit, then results should be consecutive time scale.
The fundamental saving is made on elevating the product core temperature. This can clearly be seen on the Endocube web site.
One of the reasons, for it not taking off (20+years ago) is the damage done to fresh products. If storage is very short term then, not an issue.
I do not care what other engineers think (reputable or not), I do care what about what engineers know and can prove.
The product may seem to work for you, but please understand why! If i am wrong in any of my assumptions, then please post any counter claims, engineering based!
What did you test with your fluke meter?

mikeref
27-02-2012, 07:42 AM
Bottom line is to maintain product temperature with minimal power consumption. Air sensor may cycle at +2 to +6 and average product temp will be +4 degrees C. So if the sensor is to mimic product temperature, than surely there will be longer run cycles as the air temp will go lower than 2 degrees C, therefore extended power consumption when it is not required.
On the off cycle, this same sensor is going to read a slow increase in temperature, while the room air temp is +10 degrees C or more. Thinking this is a dangerous situation as bacteria and growths will start to multiply on the outer surface of product. Surface and core temperatures aren't going to be the same.
I understand there will be less cycles but actual compressor run time would surely be similar to a conventionally operated coldroom. (Taking out volumetric efficiency at higher temperatures.).. Mike.

Segei
27-02-2012, 01:50 PM
What will food manufacturer tell you about increased product temperature? Who will take responsibility if some body get poisoned?

mad fridgie
27-02-2012, 09:28 PM
What will food manufacturer tell you about increased product temperature? Who will take responsibility if some body get poisoned?
I think this why they have got all these approvals, to cover their arse, in elevating the product storage temp.
Ecocube: " not our problem the food is deteriorated, we have approval, that elevating the product temp is safe"
I am sure you did not do all this when you fitted a VSD to your motors to save energy!

Segei
27-02-2012, 11:27 PM
Food safety isn't simple issue. Let's leave to the professionals.
We can talk about refrigeration engineering including VSDs. However, when I look at ecocube or ecube I don't see any engineering idea that can be useful to save energy.

mechanicalman
28-02-2012, 12:44 AM
I suggest those who believe will test and see results of maintaining food temperatures within accordance to the protocol P235 for food temperature monitoring with the NSF and those who don't lose nothing other than never knowing the facts.

mad fridgie
28-02-2012, 02:35 AM
Food safety isn't simple issue. Let's leave to the professionals.
We can talk about refrigeration engineering including VSDs. However, when I look at ecocube or ecube I don't see any engineering idea that can be useful to save energy.
I think that as an industry we should understand about food safety, maybe not the detail but at least the principles, as for most in the industry, refrigeration is used to keep food in a safe condition.
As mechanicalman, clearly states that the ecocube meets at least the minimum standards required. And it is understandable why they have gone through the standards process.

mad fridgie
28-02-2012, 02:51 AM
I suggest those who believe will test and see results of maintaining food temperatures within accordance to the protocol P235 for food temperature monitoring with the NSF and those who don't lose nothing other than never knowing the facts.
I am not sure what you mean by this comment.
If you mean that by lifting the core temp of any product in cold storage will save energy, "then I believe!"
If you mean there is maximum allowable temp a product can be stored and is classed as legally safe, "then I believe"
Do you believe that increased temperature swings, dries out products.
Do you believe that the lower the temp of most products, the greater the products usable life.

Segei
28-02-2012, 03:39 AM
I think that we should follow to requirements from food manufacturer. If food spoiled and you didn't follow manufacture protocol you are guilty. Probably, protocol P235 is safe, but his is just recommendation. I didn't hear that food manufacturers measure core temperature of the stored product.
Why do you think that using endocube will lead to higher core temperature?

mad fridgie
28-02-2012, 04:50 AM
I think that we should follow to requirements from food manufacturer. If food spoiled and you didn't follow manufacture protocol you are guilty. Probably, protocol P235 is safe, but his is just recommendation. I didn't hear that food manufacturers measure core temperature of the stored product.
Why do you think that using endocube will lead to higher core temperature?
If you look at the test results, on the ecocube web site, it shows that the core temp of the food increases, compared to that of the previous setting. The savings indicated by the ecocube are based around increasing the thermostat set point. Energy is Energy, this product does not change the energy dynamics of the system at a set condition. The savings come from reducing the need for cooling, basically raising the set point. The ecocube does not add more insulation to the room, nor does increase the natural refrigeration effect.
It may just be that we are over chilling our food, and the ecocube may well high light this problem.
In food production, core temp measurement and control is used very heavily (and even regulated in some sectors)
Your food, normally comes with a label, store below -18C for example. You Know that if the temp is below -18C your product core temp will be some where close.

Grizzly
28-02-2012, 07:02 AM
Hi Mad fridgie.
Yours is a reasoned argument and the reason why as an engineer I questioned mechanical mans motives in the first place.
However as you have devoted some much time to put your point of view.

May I ask a question of you / make a valid point?
Does not product rotation within the store plus traffic movements within, make close control irrelevant?

Their argument is like any training school set-up. Total control can show results that are totally unpractical in the real world.
Which is where I believe you "Come in".

I have had Supermarket "specialists" telling me and various coldstore bosses that they require temp control of their product at + or - 1c.
You should of seen the womans face (and others) when I told her it's not possible.
Not without changing the existing control systems, as a standard stat has a 2c diff.
No-one before had ever argued.

Grizzly

mad fridgie
28-02-2012, 08:44 AM
Hi Mad fridgie.
Yours is a reasoned argument and the reason why as an engineer I questioned mechanical mans motives in the first place.
However as you have devoted some much time to put your point of view.

May I ask a question of you / make a valid point?
Does not product rotation within the store plus traffic movements within, make close control irrelevant?

Their argument is like any training school set-up. Total control can show results that are totally unpractical in the real world.
Which is where I believe you "Come in".

I have had Supermarket "specialists" telling me and various coldstore bosses that they require temp control of their product at + or - 1c.
You should of seen the womans face (and others) when I told her it's not possible.
Not without changing the existing control systems, as a standard stat has a 2c diff.
No-one before had ever argued.

Grizzly

Close control, is a big word, so in away you could be correct, but take for instance a cafe chiller, stock rotation is slow, use is intermittent but heavy at times, close (closer control) does help keep the product better for longer. You may or may not know, when designing fresh product room we design with high humidity, so small td on the evap.
I will give you an "over the top example" what may happen with products using this device.
get a chicken out of the fridge, place into a hot oven for 5 mins. What temp will the surface be, what temp will it be 15mm into the flesh. Or make a bit a guess.
Also many supermarkets over chill to allow transport of the product home, especially ice creams, with high % overrun (lot of air, less cream)
i am not saying the ecocube is a bad product, just that what and how it does what is claimed need to be explained.
It is something many guys have done to resolve certain problems, reads "magoo's" thread.
the Blood banks always recorded both air temp and simulated product temps.

mikeref
28-02-2012, 09:02 AM
G'day Grizzly. Air-conditioned supermarkets and fast turnover is one scenario. Corner stores, restaurants and the like, is another. Setting a conventional thermostat for 2,3,4 degrees differential on return air temperature will have minimal effect on overall product core temperature. My focus is on the smaller business guy that doesn't have the capitol to have his coldroom or freezer room access to an a/c environment.
May i say, most times here, the room door is opened to ambient temperature, and whether or not a curtain has been installed, a significant amount of warm air is introduced, as the cold air escapes.
For a small coldroom, air temp is quickly lost and the room contents are now absorbing heat. The insulated thermostat cannot see the rapid rise in air temperature, as i have said in one of the comments above,and the room temperature rises far too much.
The longer the thermostat is delayed from restarting the next refrigeration cycle, the quicker the product will deteriorate. Shorter shelf life results, then the unsuspecting owner may well have a case of salmonella,(food poisoning) on his hands.
I honestly think that air temperature control is a must, regardless of the core temp of products :).
BTW, the rum in my fridge has to be at the right temperature in the afternoons or there will be hell to pay ;)

mikeref
28-02-2012, 09:07 AM
Ah, Mad. You snuck in when i was composing. Hope i haven't undermined your comment :eek:

Grizzly
28-02-2012, 09:07 AM
Should I have said "Delayed control" or at least "delayed responce" then?
Sorry Guys
I have misunderstood this is not a one size fits all scenario then and I can see were this type of control would indeed have merit in some of the applications you are describing.
Grizzly

mad fridgie
28-02-2012, 09:43 AM
Yo mike no problems whats so ever, the more opinions the better.
Grizzy, you are right it is not one product that fits all, but what products are.
There are many energy saving devices (well meant to be), all with great results, but normally without the fundamentals to back it up. You should ask questions always, also do not trust what I say, keep asking, for alternative opinions. Then you make your mind up.
I also make energy saving products, (unfortunately my marketing is shyte.), so I am use to people ripping into me and the product. As an engineer I should be able to prove principle, and know the limits of the application.

Grizzly
28-02-2012, 09:55 AM
Interesting MF. You may question your own marketing, but I cannot fault your reasoning.
No doubt we will speak again.
Cheers Grizzly

paulg88
28-02-2012, 12:07 PM
Is this guy for real? The day he joins RE, his first post is a blatant advertisement, and then "frigi" who just happened to join up to RE the very next day seems to just show up in mechanical mans threads to assure us the product is just great, hahaha

Segei
28-02-2012, 03:24 PM
If you look at the test results, on the ecocube web site, it shows that the core temp of the food increases, compared to that of the previous setting. The savings indicated by the ecocube are based around increasing the thermostat set point. Energy is Energy, this product does not change the energy dynamics of the system at a set condition. The savings come from reducing the need for cooling, basically raising the set point. The ecocube does not add more insulation to the room, nor does increase the natural refrigeration effect.
It may just be that we are over chilling our food, and the ecocube may well high light this problem.
In food production, core temp measurement and control is used very heavily (and even regulated in some sectors)
Your food, normally comes with a label, store below -18C for example. You Know that if the temp is below -18C your product core temp will be some where close.

Again, this conclusion based on test results. However, we are engineers and I don't understand why core temperature is higher. Assume that initially air temperature was set to 38F. It will fluctuate from 35F to 41F and product temperature will be 38F. With endocube air temperature will fluctuate from 32F to 44F and product temperature will be 38F as well.
My concerns that all conclusions based on certain tests without explanation why it happened.

Segei
28-02-2012, 04:05 PM
Yo mike no problems whats so ever, the more opinions the better.
Grizzy, you are right it is not one product that fits all, but what products are.
There are many energy saving devices (well meant to be), all with great results, but normally without the fundamentals to back it up. You should ask questions always, also do not trust what I say, keep asking, for alternative opinions. Then you make your mind up.
I also make energy saving products, (unfortunately my marketing is shyte.), so I am use to people ripping into me and the product. As an engineer I should be able to prove principle, and know the limits of the application.
I don't believe in energy saving devices that can't be explained.
This is the reason why. Usually, to save energy we should improve efficiency of the refrigeration plant. Efficiency means energy use per unit of refrigeration. E=P/RE. P is energy. RE is refrigeration capacity. However, we can measure only energy. Result will be valid only if RE is constant. However, when you play with RE you can get any result you want. This is the reason I'm skeptical about test results that can't be explained. They have opportunity to play with RE.

mechanicalman
28-02-2012, 04:58 PM
I think too many people are arguing over something they haven't physically tried. I was originally posting this information based on our own findings. as an engineer myself and not saying I am the best in what I do, nor am I saying the best in what we do. But you can get energy savings from this device.

By placing the endocube over the air temperature sensor you are then encasing the probe, the formula in the cube is made to replicate a shelf fish as a small item of food type and the most sensitive temperature variation.

The product wasn't designed as an energy saving device, it was in fact as a food temperature monitoring device. it was the fact that after encasing the air temperature probe into the endocube the equipment started to run 3 degrees colder, it was then after turning the set point back up in line with the required temperature the equipment was saving as it wasn't running as hard to meet lower temps.

This means when doors are opened the compressor wasn't kicking in based on air temperatures moving up and down. Food temperatures move a lot slower so no need to have food being over cooled.

this them showed us longer run times but much longer rest times. we have now seen a reduction of 47% less starts on the compressor, and an 18% saving on a walk-in cooler we have also taken the defrost down dramatically also down to 1 in 3

Segei
28-02-2012, 06:59 PM
"...the equipment started to run 3 degrees colder". What do you mean? Is this discharge pressure, suction pressure, suction temperature, air temperature or anything else?

mechanicalman
28-02-2012, 07:05 PM
Air temperature

Segei
28-02-2012, 07:57 PM
I thought that major focus was on product temperature. Definitely, it takes time to cool endocube so plant should run longer and at lower suction pressure. If you increase air temperature, product temperature will increase as well.

mechanicalman
28-02-2012, 08:15 PM
The Air temperature probe is inside the endocube. And because of this the the equipment stats to run colder, it is this set point we turned up by 3 degree which then stabled the food temperature to remain stable at 38c and even when the door opens the compressor only comes on in line with the set point of the food temperature and not air temperature.

mad fridgie
28-02-2012, 08:57 PM
The Air temperature probe is inside the endocube. And because of this the the equipment stats to run colder, it is this set point we turned up by 3 degree which then stabled the food temperature to remain stable at 38c and even when the door opens the compressor only comes on in line with the set point of the food temperature and not air temperature.
And that is what itdoes (typo I think, 38C, should be 38F)
This clearly shown on the endocube web site.
It also clearly shows, that the "product temp" without the endocube was at an average of 34F, also showing variable air temps. 4F increase in product temp, thus increased average air temp would indeed save energy.
With the endocube installed, no reference was made to the air temp, but the temp within the endocube.
The endocube for sure would be great on room thermometers and alarm sensing, as for control, I would say horses for courses. The energy savings come from awareness not from the product directly.

frank
28-02-2012, 09:06 PM
Is this guy for real? The day he joins RE, his first post is a blatant advertisement, and then "frigi" who just happened to join up to RE the very next day seems to just show up in mechanical mans threads to assure us the product is just great, hahaha
Unless they are using proxy servers, they appear to be on opposite side of the world, 1 in Florida and 1 in Australia....at least that's what the IP addresses say.

mad fridgie
28-02-2012, 09:15 PM
Unless they are using proxy servers, they appear to be on opposite side of the world, 1 in Florida and 1 in Australia....at least that's what the IP addresses say.
Not sure what means, but as shown (can not rember thread number) edcocube are presently doing their stuff in Australia! If smells like fish then it either fish, or ??????????

mechanicalman
28-02-2012, 10:03 PM
No Endocube has an office in Florida, New York, Australia, United Kingdom. Manufacturer is Universal Master Products Ltd U.S Distributor is Refrigerator saver & they have a dealer in Australia Onergy and another guy in S America. We have had conversation with them several times. nice enough guys and the inventor is a guy called Harry who seemed to know his industry inside out. I think we have had a lot of bickering like old women on these threads. we have done our own tests and seen positive results. we didn't think it would work either but it did and does. if you cannot take my word call them in UK Florida where ever and try it yourself. I like you have been on the tools for years and seen all kinds of gimmicks. I thought this was another of those magic bullet items. but we did our testing and were proven wrong but in a pleasantly surprised way. we only investigated deeper as we had a client looking for more stable temperatures and got them what they needed through this device. now we have installed them into seven stores. And that is enough to get us more involved with the product based on this clients reputation.

servicefiter562
28-02-2012, 10:13 PM
servicefiter562
Not sure what differance the sst has to do with the ability of the cube to mimic product temp. I have been testing the device in 2- large refrigerated warehouse's for the last 2- months. Defrost times based on liquid run time,inital settings before cube installed 18hrs to24hrs. After cube was installed i have defrost set at 168hrs, dock,coolers and freezers, with no ice or frost build up and temps within a 2* window. Outside ambients 35* to 60*, humidity 35% to 55%. This is on 1500 ton R-717 recirculated system with hot gas defrost. Estamated savings of annual k.w. due to reducing number of defrosts per coil based on tonnage of coil and k.w. rate, multiplied by the number of defrosts per coil. Number of coils in facility 28. K.w.rate .08. Estamated savings $8000.00 to 9500.00 a year, that number was figured at 78hrs liquid run time not the current 168hr run time. It appears to be working well to myself and my customer.

Segei
28-02-2012, 10:23 PM
servicefiter562
Not sure what differance the sst has to do with the ability of the cube to mimic product temp. I have been testing the device in 2- large refrigerated warehouse's for the last 2- months. Defrost times based on liquid run time,inital settings before cube installed 18hrs to24hrs. After cube was installed i have defrost set at 168hrs, dock,coolers and freezers, with no ice or frost build up and temps within a 2* window. Outside ambients 35* to 60*, humidity 35% to 55%. This is on 1500 ton R-717 recirculated system with hot gas defrost. Estamated savings of annual k.w. due to reducing number of defrosts per coil based on tonnage of coil and k.w. rate, multiplied by the number of defrosts per coil. Number of coils in facility 28. K.w.rate .08. Estamated savings $8000.00 to 9500.00 a year, that number was figured at 78hrs liquid run time not the current 168hr run time. It appears to be working well to myself and my customer.
Is it cooler or freezer? Do you think that endocube influence on rate of frost formation?

Segei
28-02-2012, 10:46 PM
And that is what itdoes (typo I think, 38C, should be 38F)
This clearly shown on the endocube web site.
It also clearly shows, that the "product temp" without the endocube was at an average of 34F, also showing variable air temps. 4F increase in product temp, thus increased average air temp would indeed save energy.
With the endocube installed, no reference was made to the air temp, but the temp within the endocube.
The endocube for sure would be great on room thermometers and alarm sensing, as for control, I would say horses for courses. The energy savings come from awareness not from the product directly.
I looked at these graphs again. Original air temperature set point was 35F. Air temperature fluctuated from 35F to 37F. Product temperature was 36F. I agree with this. Why don't we just increase set point to 39F? Air temperature will fluctuate from 39F to 41F? Product temperature will be 40F. So we have opportunity to increase temperature not because of endocube, because initial temperature was set too low.

servicefiter562
28-02-2012, 10:53 PM
seigi
The only thing the cube is doing is mimicing the product temp, by looking at product temp your temp control is not responding to air changes when doors open and close. Instead of the unit cycling on and off rapidly as it normally does you end up with a slightly longer run cycle and slightly longer off cycle,you will build up a slight amount of dew frost onthe fins during the run cycle and the coil will clear the frost during off cycle.Works the same in a cooler or freezer. I have set the evap fans to continus run on the dock and 28* room to extend defrost time out to 168hrs. I am not sure what some were saying about incresed product temp with the cube, we are finding consistant product temps in all rooms. We are recording them seperate with a 3rd party calibrated recorder made by sensitech. I have been in the refrigeration industry 35 years and have found most devices are a joke. This little sucker actually works

mad fridgie
28-02-2012, 11:09 PM
Refrigeration is based around a simple principle of an energy mass balance.
Any system for a set condition requires "x" cooling, this is fundamental to out industry. So to reduce the "x' cooling, you do need to do something that load profile, for example, more insulation, less air infiltration, lift the temperature and so on. Is there an argument here.
To increase the efficiency, of an existing plant, you have change the working conditions of the plant, change in SCT, SST, SC, HP and so on. This again is fundamental to our industry.
The ecocube does not change any of the load requirement for a set condition nor does over influence the working conditions of the refrigerant plant at the set conditions.
However to achieve the savings indicated, the refrigerated area internal conditions have changed. The room and the product becomes warmer. This is clearly shown on the test results given on the ecocube web site!
If this not true please explain the savings, based upon basic fundamental engineering principles.
The principle of thermal lag, is nothing new, this product may well be the best product simulator.

mad fridgie
28-02-2012, 11:27 PM
I looked at these graphs again. Original air temperature set point was 35F. Air temperature fluctuated from 35F to 37F. Product temperature was 36F. I agree with this. Why don't we just increase set point to 39F? Air temperature will fluctuate from 39F to 41F? Product temperature will be 40F. So we have opportunity to increase temperature not because of endocube, because initial temperature was set too low.
You are correct. This elevated temperature will give you the savings.
Because the air temp is higher the SST will also be higher, so ice formation is reduced, and even during the off cycle, natural defrost will occur more quickly.
If some one, decides to look at energy efficiency with a product, they also tend to look at the cause of the energy use. Often small changes are made in other areas, to save energy, these savings all get lumped into the saving of the device installed.
If you look further down the ecocube test data, read the comments, one indicates that one system was optimized (it has a small problem) without the ecocube it is unlikely that this problem would not have been found. Which in itself is not a bad thing.

Segei
28-02-2012, 11:30 PM
Refrigeration is based around a simple principle of an energy mass balance.
Any system for a set condition requires "x" cooling, this is fundamental to out industry. So to reduce the "x' cooling, you do need to do something that load profile, for example, more insulation, less air infiltration, lift the temperature and so on. Is there an argument here.
To increase the efficiency, of an existing plant, you have change the working conditions of the plant, change in SCT, SST, SC, HP and so on. This again is fundamental to our industry.
The ecocube does not change any of the load requirement for a set condition nor does over influence the working conditions of the refrigerant plant at the set conditions.
However to achieve the savings indicated, the refrigerated area internal conditions have changed. The room and the product becomes warmer. This is clearly shown on the test results given on the ecocube web site!
If this not true please explain the savings, based upon basic fundamental engineering principles.
The principle of thermal lag, is nothing new, this product may well be the best product simulator.
My question was. Why don't we just increase set point from 35F to 39F? Result will be the same.

Segei
28-02-2012, 11:36 PM
seigi
The only thing the cube is doing is mimicing the product temp, by looking at product temp your temp control is not responding to air changes when doors open and close. Instead of the unit cycling on and off rapidly as it normally does you end up with a slightly longer run cycle and slightly longer off cycle,you will build up a slight amount of dew frost onthe fins during the run cycle and the coil will clear the frost during off cycle.Works the same in a cooler or freezer. I have set the evap fans to continus run on the dock and 28* room to extend defrost time out to 168hrs. I am not sure what some were saying about incresed product temp with the cube, we are finding consistant product temps in all rooms. We are recording them seperate with a 3rd party calibrated recorder made by sensitech. I have been in the refrigeration industry 35 years and have found most devices are a joke. This little sucker actually works
May be you don't need defrost at all.;) Can you explain one thing. How does frost clear during off cycle? Sometimes(not always) it can happen for the cooler. How does it happen for the freezer?

mad fridgie
28-02-2012, 11:49 PM
seigi
The only thing the cube is doing is mimicing the product temp, by looking at product temp your temp control is not responding to air changes when doors open and close. Instead of the unit cycling on and off rapidly as it normally does you end up with a slightly longer run cycle and slightly longer off cycle,you will build up a slight amount of dew frost onthe fins during the run cycle and the coil will clear the frost during off cycle.Works the same in a cooler or freezer. I have set the evap fans to continus run on the dock and 28* room to extend defrost time out to 168hrs. I am not sure what some were saying about incresed product temp with the cube, we are finding consistant product temps in all rooms. We are recording them seperate with a 3rd party calibrated recorder made by sensitech. I have been in the refrigeration industry 35 years and have found most devices are a joke. This little sucker actually works
Sorry Seigi, hope i am not stepping on your feet here!
I would expect that defrost is better with an ecocube, then with a standard close control thermsost, all this shows is that you had the incorrect defrost/temp control method. By simply increasing you hysteresis and set point, and/or increasing your anti cycle/run on cycle timesr, the exact same result applies. Ok by doing this you have lost a small amount of close control on air temp, but that equally applies to the ecocube.
The increased product temp, is directly related to the results shown on the ecocube website, which relates back directly to the energy savings.
The ecocube for most products should not alter the steady state core temps, it could cause problem with medium to long term storage of things like lettuce (which have little thermal mass "thin bits"), the larger temp swings will speed up natural dehumidification (the leaves become droopy and less crisp)

mad fridgie
28-02-2012, 11:51 PM
My question was. Why don't we just increase set point from 35F to 39F? Result will be the same.
100% agreed.

mad fridgie
29-02-2012, 12:06 AM
seigi
The only thing the cube is doing is mimicing the product temp, by looking at product temp your temp control is not responding to air changes when doors open and close. Instead of the unit cycling on and off rapidly as it normally does you end up with a slightly longer run cycle and slightly longer off cycle,you will build up a slight amount of dew frost onthe fins during the run cycle and the coil will clear the frost during off cycle.Works the same in a cooler or freezer. I have set the evap fans to continus run on the dock and 28* room to extend defrost time out to 168hrs. I am not sure what some were saying about incresed product temp with the cube, we are finding consistant product temps in all rooms. We are recording them seperate with a 3rd party calibrated recorder made by sensitech. I have been in the refrigeration industry 35 years and have found most devices are a joke. This little sucker actually works
I see some flaws here. You now have the fans running all the time (so i must presume, that they cycled off with the old stat), so this fact alone aids in defrosting, plus you are using power for the fans and you need to remove the energy produced by the fans. (there are arguments about fans on or off, but that is a different subject)
You quote savings made by reducing defrost, I am struggling here a bit as well.
You are using hot gas, so no cost for defrosting directly. (unlike an element which does) However there could be a slight saving made, Ok after defrost there is a need to remove the energy from the coil block and a % of the mass entrapped liquid. This is easily calculated.

Segei
29-02-2012, 12:22 AM
I see some flaws here. You now have the fans running all the time (so i must presume, that they cycled off with the old stat), so this fact alone aids in defrosting, plus you are using power for the fans and you need to remove the energy produced by the fans. (there are arguments about fans on or off, but that is a different subject)
You quote savings made by reducing defrost, I am struggling here a bit as well.
You are using hot gas, so no cost for defrosting directly. (unlike an element which does) However there could be a slight saving made, Ok after defrost there is a need to remove the energy from the coil block and a % of the mass entrapped liquid. This is easily calculated.
Definitely, that hot gas supply is free. However, efficiency of hot gas defrosting is very low. Typically, 10-20% of hot gas energy goes to melt the ice, the rest is parasitic refrigeration load.
Actually, I think that endocube is really "magic" device.
1. It save 20-40% energy, but nobody can explain how.
2. It reduce rate of frost formation and help to clear the frost from the freezer evaporators. Nobody knows how to explain this phenomenon.

mad fridgie
29-02-2012, 12:30 AM
Definitely, that hot gas supply is free. However, efficiency of hot gas defrosting is very low. Typically, 10-20% of hot gas energy goes to melt the ice, the rest is parasitic refrigeration load.
Actually, I think that endocube is really "magic" device.
1. It save 20-40% energy, but nobody can explain how.
2. It reduce rate of frost formation and help to clear the frost from the freezer evaporators. Nobody knows how to explain this phenomenon.
Not going to argue with on the defrost, I not a NH3 specialist, know enough not to be BS
So do I gather you what to be the Canadian agent for ecocube? You just can beat a bit of magic!

frigi
29-02-2012, 02:01 AM
Lol web detcetives :off topic:, I am back been to busy working
I have only just started using the endocube, i also intially thought that it would not work, but it does the trick and it is making my customers happy, and i am making more money ;)

servicefiter562
29-02-2012, 02:20 AM
The reasons you all give are true and i agree load is load and that dosnt change. But, their is always a but isnt their. The only reason i can give you relates to cycle time for the coil. I have a 500hp high stage on a drive with another 500hp backing it up. 2-150hp boosters, lead on a drive. Prior to the cube H.Stage operated any where from 55% capacity to 100% capicty,motor speed 40htz until slide valve at 100% then ramps up,same with booster. Prior to cube booster operated 40% to 100%. Defrost profiles had been adjust for max run time based on conditions,plus main defrost line regulater set about 85 to 90# to over come line loss and lenght of run attempting to reduce excess load on high stage during defrost and prevent machine loading as much as possible. Once cubes installed H.stage runs at 40htz with slide valve between 15% and 45%,booster runs 40htz with slide valve between 5% and 25%.Defrost run times have been slowly extended out and coils monitered for signs of frost build up. Docks and 28* cooler started to build frost at 60hrs. Switched evap fans from cycle with temp to continus run and extended run time to 168hrs and can go further based on coils. Fan load considered minor compared with defrost savings and even with fan operational change still seeing 10% to 15% k.w. reduction from same time period last year and it has been 25% warmer this year. The system seems exceptionally balanced with out requiring a defrost . It appears to me by controlling room temps based on product temp and not air you maintain tighter control and do not have the normal number of cycles which allows the system to handle the load smoothly and not have big load swings. Also due to k.w.reduction looking into evap fan vfds to tighten it up a little more. I expect once ambient begins climbing as well as r.h. liquid run time will be reduced but even if it is 84hrs i think any one in a refrigerated warehouse would be satisfied.

servicefiter562
29-02-2012, 02:39 AM
The reason the coils dont biuld frost is the off time you get between cycles, the coil has time to boil out the liquid still in the coil when the solenoid closes.That liquid is boiling off and absorbing load which is helping maintain room temp and in the process you remove the frost when liquid is gone . Normal 2 degree deadband control on air temp never allows the coil to boil off , even in freezers

servicefiter562
29-02-2012, 03:10 AM
their is a energy penilty with hot gas ,its hp. Once you raise the pressure in a coil to defrost it you have to load the compressor to maintain your house h.stage suction until that load is removed. As i said earlier the calculation to figure the defrost cost is, coil tonnage divided by.5kwh X k.w. rate = cost per defrost per coil.

mad fridgie
29-02-2012, 03:20 AM
The reasons you all give are true and i agree load is load and that dosnt change. But, their is always a but isnt their. The only reason i can give you relates to cycle time for the coil. I have a 500hp high stage on a drive with another 500hp backing it up. 2-150hp boosters, lead on a drive. Prior to the cube H.Stage operated any where from 55% capacity to 100% capicty,motor speed 40htz until slide valve at 100% then ramps up,same with booster. Prior to cube booster operated 40% to 100%. Defrost profiles had been adjust for max run time based on conditions,plus main defrost line regulater set about 85 to 90# to over come line loss and lenght of run attempting to reduce excess load on high stage during defrost and prevent machine loading as much as possible. Once cubes installed H.stage runs at 40htz with slide valve between 15% and 45%,booster runs 40htz with slide valve between 5% and 25%.Defrost run times have been slowly extended out and coils monitered for signs of frost build up. Docks and 28* cooler started to build frost at 60hrs. Switched evap fans from cycle with temp to continus run and extended run time to 168hrs and can go further based on coils. Fan load considered minor compared with defrost savings and even with fan operational change still seeing 10% to 15% k.w. reduction from same time period last year and it has been 25% warmer this year. The system seems exceptionally balanced with out requiring a defrost . It appears to me by controlling room temps based on product temp and not air you maintain tighter control and do not have the normal number of cycles which allows the system to handle the load smoothly and not have big load swings. Also due to k.w.reduction looking into evap fan vfds to tighten it up a little more. I expect once ambient begins climbing as well as r.h. liquid run time will be reduced but even if it is 84hrs i think any one in a refrigerated warehouse would be satisfied.
Nice info, and something we can make sense of (as we have done with ecocube data).
Load is load, that is one thing that can be judged on the site, so presume all is equal. Why is there saving!
The defrost first, I think that the forced draft nature and the longer dwell times (off periods covers this) and yes the ecocube gives longer period between on and off (for high and medium temp) low temp, I am also struggling, the only expalanation is that if you a multiple evaps in each room that some moisture is passing from coil to coil (vapour pressure) , The large difference in cycle time will aid in defrost for high and medium temps, not alot of argument at this point
As far as the screw loading and unloading. I suggest that the previous method of room(s) control and the influence of the dead legs (off cycles), did cause considerable issues with control of the PID loop, I would suggest that your data indicates considerable over and undershooting of suction and the corresponding changes in discharge pressure. Yes with many room cycling rapidly, your load is going up and down like whores draws. The ecocube of course dampened the cycle rate, which allows your suction controller, to stabilize the system. What you have said makes sense. The ecocube has shown you that you did have failings in the old control method, Because our larger system are controlled by SCADA and PLC, most systems have run on/anti cycle timers in place, to cover this exact scenario, but not for the direct energy saving that you see but just for stability of a system. sort of a similar result coming from 2 different directions.
If you do not have the control options that that are common here, just a simple stat, then this well be a good option for your application. It would be nice to know, what the air temps are with the eco cube in place. This is really the data that is missing (before and after, in the same location as the ecocube) With large rooms fluctuations should not be as big as with little rooms, basic fundamentals, "thermal mass"

mad fridgie
29-02-2012, 03:27 AM
The reason the coils dont biuld frost is the off time you get between cycles, the coil has time to boil out the liquid still in the coil when the solenoid closes.That liquid is boiling off and absorbing load which is helping maintain room temp and in the process you remove the frost when liquid is gone . Normal 2 degree deadband control on air temp never allows the coil to boil off , even in freezersJust change your dead band to 4 degrees, same thing really

mad fridgie
29-02-2012, 03:29 AM
their is a energy penilty with hot gas ,its hp. Once you raise the pressure in a coil to defrost it you have to load the compressor to maintain your house h.stage suction until that load is removed. As i said earlier the calculation to figure the defrost cost is, coil tonnage divided by.5kwh X k.w. rate = cost per defrost per coil.Great info?.

Segei
29-02-2012, 03:34 AM
The reasons you all give are true and i agree load is load and that dosnt change. But, their is always a but isnt their. The only reason i can give you relates to cycle time for the coil. I have a 500hp high stage on a drive with another 500hp backing it up. 2-150hp boosters, lead on a drive. Prior to the cube H.Stage operated any where from 55% capacity to 100% capicty,motor speed 40htz until slide valve at 100% then ramps up,same with booster. Prior to cube booster operated 40% to 100%. Defrost profiles had been adjust for max run time based on conditions,plus main defrost line regulater set about 85 to 90# to over come line loss and lenght of run attempting to reduce excess load on high stage during defrost and prevent machine loading as much as possible. Once cubes installed H.stage runs at 40htz with slide valve between 15% and 45%,booster runs 40htz with slide valve between 5% and 25%.Defrost run times have been slowly extended out and coils monitered for signs of frost build up. Docks and 28* cooler started to build frost at 60hrs. Switched evap fans from cycle with temp to continus run and extended run time to 168hrs and can go further based on coils. Fan load considered minor compared with defrost savings and even with fan operational change still seeing 10% to 15% k.w. reduction from same time period last year and it has been 25% warmer this year. The system seems exceptionally balanced with out requiring a defrost . It appears to me by controlling room temps based on product temp and not air you maintain tighter control and do not have the normal number of cycles which allows the system to handle the load smoothly and not have big load swings. Also due to k.w.reduction looking into evap fan vfds to tighten it up a little more. I expect once ambient begins climbing as well as r.h. liquid run time will be reduced but even if it is 84hrs i think any one in a refrigerated warehouse would be satisfied.
Let me review operation of your plant regarding to energy efficiency.
1. Operating screw compressors below 50% is very inefficient. I don't know type of your compressors, but it is better to reduce speed of the compressor down to minimum 20-30Hz than use slide valve.
2. It isn't clear for me why you have swing of the load if you have evaporator fan VFDs. Probably, something wrong with the settings. To minimize swing, you should increase suction pressure. It is better for the efficiency especially for the plants with evaporator fan VFDs.
3. Running evap. fans nonstop it is bad idea. First they use energy. Second they release this energy in the cold room as parasitic refrigeration load. To remove this load, additional energy is required.
3. Probably, you over defrosted evaporators before. Right now you cut defrosting, but it is nothing to do with endocube. By the way maximum run time shouldn't be greater than 48 Hrs. Minimal positive effect to run it longer, sometimes even negative effect. If you have a doubt, I can show the numbers.

Segei
29-02-2012, 03:43 AM
their is a energy penilty with hot gas ,its hp. Once you raise the pressure in a coil to defrost it you have to load the compressor to maintain your house h.stage suction until that load is removed. As i said earlier the calculation to figure the defrost cost is, coil tonnage divided by.5kwh X k.w. rate = cost per defrost per coil.
I don't understand this statement. You put hot gas in the coil. Why to load compressor? High stage or low stage compressor? Until load removed. What is this load? Why it should be removed? Where did you get this formula? Can you give us one example?

servicefiter562
29-02-2012, 04:09 AM
Gentlemen im going to call it a night. Ive got a date with a fes shaftseal in the moning. Nice sharing thoughts with you

mechanicalman
29-02-2012, 04:26 AM
Well it was nice to see someone else has seem similar results and wanted to get stuck in with their more in depth explanation. Sometimes you wonder if you should keep your mouth shut and not type your thoughts on these threads. BUT I DID, and lets be honest the banter has been quite good fun to see everyone point of view. :D Servicefiter562 I would like to here more on what results you have had. We are mainly working on commercial Walk-ins and not larger plant. from what you have shared I have now got more information myself for some of the larger facilities we do work for. if this is actually doing what we are seeing and you are currently seeing, this could be a massive breakthrough in both the energy saving and food safety sectors for refrigeration

mad fridgie
29-02-2012, 06:15 AM
Well it was nice to see someone else has seem similar results and wanted to get stuck in with their more in depth explanation. Sometimes you wonder if you should keep your mouth shut and not type your thoughts on these threads. BUT I DID, and lets be honest the banter has been quite good fun to see everyone point of view. :D Servicefiter562 I would like to here more on what results you have had. We are mainly working on commercial Walk-ins and not larger plant. from what you have shared I have now got more information myself for some of the larger facilities we do work for. if this is actually doing what we are seeing and you are currently seeing, this could be a massive breakthrough in both the energy saving and food safety sectors for refrigeration
What!
It is a piece of plastic covering a temperature sensor!

mad fridgie
29-02-2012, 07:15 AM
I find putting the probe in this works better
http://eastcountymagazine.org/sites/default/files/snake-oil1.jpg

mikeref
29-02-2012, 08:23 AM
So i'm going to throw a steak in the fry pan soon. Would it be economical to let the electric fry pan regulate it's own off cycles on pan temperature, or re-route the pans probe to read the meat's core temperature?
Two things come to mind. The outside of the steak will be charcoal, and the innermost, probe regulated area will be fine. Thermal conductivity comes to mind, and so does Gordon Ramsay. Would he, or any of us accept paying for a steak in that condition?
Same goes for food preservation. When cooling is required to keep within bacterial growth parameters, refrigeration is needed now, not 20 minutes later in 33 degree C ambient. (Forced defrost times has to be tolerated to get the system working again, at peak efficiency. ( freezer systems, and selected coldrooms.)
My focus is on coldrooms and the delayed off cycles and extended run cycle with this probe insulating device.

paulg88
29-02-2012, 11:54 AM
Unless they are using proxy servers, they appear to be on opposite side of the world, 1 in Florida and 1 in Australia....at least that's what the IP addresses say.

Both have location of USA or united states thou... I don't need any convincing because it's extremely obvious this is a farce, but I doubt either of them set up their account in USA 5 days ago and have moved to oz since...

750 Valve
29-02-2012, 12:33 PM
What a load of crap! As mentioned by Mad Fridgie the load is the load, putting a probe in an "engineered" plastic casing does not change the characteristics that make up the load - product specific heats, density, infiltration, thermal losses through insulation, etc.

All that ends up happening is the thermal lag means an overshoot on both the warm side and the cold side and the room/case temp fluctuates massively. I don't give two hoots if it gets an off cycle defrost because the cycle is longer - on the flip side the sst is lower (meaning more energy consumption if its a single system), or the cycle is increased dramatically if it happens to have an EPR fitted to limit the SST.

You get nothing for nothing and this is a perfect example of pulling the wool over people's eyes using false logic and selective engineering.

The way this thread was started and the posts by the two clowns with a vested interest in the product stinks.

The only way this thing saves energy is because the types of customers using it (Sodexo, Nandos, McDonalds, etc) have such poorly commissioned systems that it can have an affect. They are better off finding an engineer/fridge mechanic that can actually commission a system properly and get the same energy savings results plus some longer equipment life spans from better operation and maintenance.

http://www.allmaria.com/dastardly/images/blsht.jpg

mechanicalman
29-02-2012, 09:57 PM
I am pleased to see that from another engineer with years of experience has shed some light on what I said I was seeing. I was only putting my point across and some of you shot me down and other started to get some understanding. We are all in the same industry, and some of us don't like change, but fact is fact, and those who answer these threads and defend what I said in the first place I thank you for supporting my claim.

servicefiter562
01-03-2012, 04:53 AM
Well i guess you have tested the cube and have falsified all of the testing i done over the last 2 months. The system being tested is part of one of the larger food distributers in north america. I guess i pulled the wool over their eyes as well as the in house refrigeration engineers and their contracted refrigeration energy engineers. By the way all of your points dont hold up.The system was properly commissioned verified by 3rd party engieers. The system was operating at its most efficent prior to cube installation, again verified. The system operates on a M&M microprocesser i guess the hard data is inaccurate. I guess my point is this,be careful about calling something a load of crap unless you have actually tested it. I have no idea what anyone else is doing with the device and dont really care. My data is solid. Have a nice day

mad fridgie
01-03-2012, 07:52 AM
Well i guess you have tested the cube and have falsified all of the testing i done over the last 2 months. The system being tested is part of one of the larger food distributers in north america. I guess i pulled the wool over their eyes as well as the in house refrigeration engineers and their contracted refrigeration energy engineers. By the way all of your points dont hold up.The system was properly commissioned verified by 3rd party engieers. The system was operating at its most efficent prior to cube installation, again verified. The system operates on a M&M microprocesser i guess the hard data is inaccurate. I guess my point is this,be careful about calling something a load of crap unless you have actually tested it. I have no idea what anyone else is doing with the device and dont really care. My data is solid. Have a nice day
As stated by many we have used these devices before (not called ecocube), there is nothing new in the concept. Even though you did give better data, the data is still limited, and with what was given.
You or the ecocubes fans have given, no scientific or engineering basis for the improvement made.
I and other have given detailed descriptions of what happens, with the request for you all to prove our principle wrong or alternative to our principles.
As far as your set up goes, if the third party engineer excepted you sales without engineering proof, then I need not say any more.
I am no expert on US based NH3 systems, I know Segie has a lot of expertise in this field. So when he questions, I have no choice but to look. Convince him, then you are on track to convince others.
This was your thread
"The reason the coils dont biuld frost is the off time you get between cycles, the coil has time to boil out the liquid still in the coil when the solenoid closes.That liquid is boiling off and absorbing load which is helping maintain room temp and in the process you remove the frost when liquid is gone . Normal 2 degree deadband control on air temp never allows the coil to boil off , even in freezers"
You state during a normal control, that he coil is not draining, so if the coil is not draining, it still must be refrigerating, yet the thermostat cuts back in, Does this not show you a probe position problem. "Are you measuring "air off" "
Prove the principle using engineering and science.

mikeref
01-03-2012, 08:57 AM
Well i guess you have tested the cube and have falsified all of the testing i done over the last 2 months. The system being tested is part of one of the larger food distributers in north america. I guess i pulled the wool over their eyes as well as the in house refrigeration engineers and their contracted refrigeration energy engineers. By the way all of your points dont hold up.The system was properly commissioned verified by 3rd party engieers. The system was operating at its most efficent prior to cube installation, again verified. The system operates on a M&M microprocesser i guess the hard data is inaccurate. I guess my point is this,be careful about calling something a load of crap unless you have actually tested it. I have no idea what anyone else is doing with the device and dont really care. My data is solid. Have a nice day
O.K. we are obviously divided over the insulating of an air temperature sensor. Going back to basics,.. air temp sensors are positioned in the warmest, and closest positions to the evaporator. All things being equal, why does the cooling process resume? The sensor detects a rise in air temperature. Why this happens? Ingress of heat through insulation, product, door openings... everything that does not mimic ambient,( outside) temperatures. [ assuming outdoor temps are higher than what we require]
If we wanted to delay compressor restart, we would use a simple delay timer. Set it for 5 minutes, or 10, in the extreme. While the product loses temperature waiting for insulated sensor to signal compressor restart, nothing is going to shield the product from continual heat gain... What is going to restore stability? What savings can there be achieved when product needs to be chilled to the origional required temperature as now, compressor has to work longer to get to that specific set point.
Data logger set for continual monitoring, at two minute intervals before, and after the device is fitted with a condom, will be the evidence i need for a product safe environment.. Mike.

750 Valve
01-03-2012, 01:16 PM
Well i guess you have tested the cube and have falsified all of the testing i done over the last 2 months.

A product simulator is just one person/company's attempt at monitoring the core temperature of a certain type of product - nothing special and they have been around in differing forms for years there, so yes I have tested this before.


The system being tested is part of one of the larger food distributers in north america. I guess i pulled the wool over their eyes as well as the in house refrigeration engineers and their contracted refrigeration energy engineers.
Quite possibly, I have dealt with quite a few energy engineers myself and they sell energy savings not food chain compliance. Most site engineers aren't exactly the sharpest tools in the shed now are they?


By the way all of your points dont hold up.The system was properly commissioned verified by 3rd party engieers. The system was operating at its most efficent prior to cube installation, again verified. How can you be sure of this, were the limits of the plant pushed prior to installation of endocube? Was the room temp raised? Were larger differentials explored? I could go on but I think I'm talking to someone with a financial interst in a black box so I'm not going to waste my breath too much longer.


The system operates on a M&M microprocesser i guess the hard data is inaccurate.
Data can be manipulated to achieve desired results.


I guess my point is this,be careful about calling something a load of crap unless you have actually tested it. I have no idea what anyone else is doing with the device and dont really care. My data is solid. Have a nice day

It's a load of crap. It's laughable that 3 different users all pop up within days of each other spruking the virtues of this most wonderous black box that houses a probe. All of your posts, along with two other endocube fans, have all been in this thread. Got each other on speed dial? Or just like using proxy servers?

Segei
01-03-2012, 11:53 PM
I think that it was good campaign to promote useless(to save energy) product.
Optimization of the refrigeration plant operation is the best way to save energy. We can improve condensing pressure, suction pressure, defrosting, reduce refrigeration load by preventing over cooling and etc. However, it can be done without endocube. This is the reason that endocube guys can't explain their energy savings. I have one suggestion to them. You've forgot about major energy saving measure. This is lowering condensing pressure. Very often it can give us up to 50% of total energy savings. Just tell everybody around that you were able to lower condensing, because of endocube. You know how to do that.
I have advice for servicefiter562. Don't believe in magic devices. They just don't exist. Become member of IIAR (international institute ammonia refrigeration). You can get many good technical papers about energy savings in industrial refrigeration.

mad fridgie
02-03-2012, 01:02 AM
My concern is not does it do what they or not, But the totally dishonest nature in which it is marketed, and the effect it may have on industry as whole and the effect it may have on futures sales of little black boxes that may have proven and engineered benefits. (what ever they maybe)
Also my concern on the cold chain from sales to home to use. For the product to do as it claims, you must have a larger swing in air temp, if the swing is on the positive side, then surface deterioration must be occurring. This may not been in the short term "at the point of sale", but more in the usable life at home. Either the product has to be used more quickly, or becomes useless, or the home refrigerator need to become colder to compensate for the increased growth that has already occurred. So even if the energy saving were to be made, there would not be any actual saving made, on shifting the point of energy use. Which has absolutely no benefit to the environment.
I wish i knew who this large coldstore was own by. I would love to tell them that they are being hoodwinked,with false sales data, and manipulated performance data.
I am however willing to change my view if someone can show engineering proof of the claims!

servicefiter562
02-03-2012, 02:02 AM
Sergei ,First off i am not promoting the cube, i simpley put the information out there for people to discuss. As far as your comments about plant operations all of the items you listed are alreary in place, your right it all was done with out the cube. I dont belive in magic devices thats why i tested it. So with a plant operating with all you have listed plus drives on compressors and condensers plus load shedding adding the cube allowed enhanced operation. End result 10% to 15% reduction plant in plant k.w. Just so you know i am a member of IIAR-20 years / RETA member-20 years /RSES 25 years and all offer great technical support

Segei
02-03-2012, 03:19 AM
Sergei ,First off i am not promoting the cube, i simpley put the information out there for people to discuss. As far as your comments about plant operations all of the items you listed are alreary in place, your right it all was done with out the cube. I dont belive in magic devices thats why i tested it. So with a plant operating with all you have listed plus drives on compressors and condensers plus load shedding adding the cube allowed enhanced operation. End result 10% to 15% reduction plant in plant k.w. Just so you know i am a member of IIAR-20 years / RETA member-20 years /RSES 25 years and all offer great technical support
Just don't tell me that endocube reduced rate of frost formation.
One simple example. Assume that during 1 week of operation 1000 kg of moisture went into the freezer through the doors. You should do defrosting to melt the frost and drain 1000 kg of water outside. You claim that endocube helps you get only 100 kg of frost on the coils. Where is going the rest 900 kg? Next week another 900 kg. One way or another you should remove this moisture from the freezer.
"..items you listed are already in place". Optimum condensing pressure for winter operation is 60-70 psig. Are you going to tell me that your plant operated at this condensing pressure all winter? To maximize energy efficiency of the refrigeration plant, you should do 3 steps. First. You should identify energy savings measures. Second. You should know optimum set points of these measures. Third. You should know how to implement these set points. If you done that, items are in place.

mad fridgie
02-03-2012, 06:53 AM
Sergei ,First off i am not promoting the cube, i simpley put the information out there for people to discuss. As far as your comments about plant operations all of the items you listed are alreary in place, your right it all was done with out the cube. I dont belive in magic devices thats why i tested it. So with a plant operating with all you have listed plus drives on compressors and condensers plus load shedding adding the cube allowed enhanced operation. End result 10% to 15% reduction plant in plant k.w. Just so you know i am a member of IIAR-20 years / RETA member-20 years /RSES 25 years and all offer great technical support
If you not promoting the cube, send all back bar one. Use a air sensor placed next to the cube, use the cube on/off as reference point, compare to air temp sensor, remove cube, adjust stat (set point and diff) to mimic cube.
On another site, it stated that there was limits on air temp within rooms, so air stats had to be close control, the cube keeps the same close control, so giving the impression that the air temp does not rise. BUT it must.

Sandro Baptista
02-03-2012, 09:31 AM
My opinion is that endocube is beneficial to the refrigeration equipment since the time between START/STARTs are enlarged but it not beneficial to the product. Without endocube the surface and depth temperature is lower than with the endocube.

It's good to "cover" the real air fluctuations due to opening doors and defrosts and the client may be happier but the reality is another.

At first sign I confess that it looked a good idea but then after I reflect I have changed my mind.

mechanicalman
05-03-2012, 02:33 AM
I think those who have tested the technology have seen results. Those who seems to duck around the idea the technology saying it doesn't, cannot comment unless they test it themselves. It seems many want to come up with their own conclusions. But in my own experience, you cannot make a judgement unless you have satisfied your assumption. So how engineer who are skilled in the industry can make direct comments without doing so is bizzare.

mad fridgie
05-03-2012, 06:57 AM
I think those who have tested the technology have seen results. Those who seems to duck around the idea the technology saying it doesn't, cannot comment unless they test it themselves. It seems many want to come up with their own conclusions. But in my own experience, you cannot make a judgement unless you have satisfied your assumption. So how engineer who are skilled in the industry can make direct comments without doing so is bizzare.
Most who have commented have used similar products before, the principle has not changed. So we can comment, so not so bizzare, but before we just ignore it, we also have to give an engineering reasons for our dismissal, of a product and/or concept. This has been given, and to date no engineering based info has been given to counter our claims.

Sandro Baptista
05-03-2012, 10:04 AM
I think those who have tested the technology have seen results. Those who seems to duck around the idea the technology saying it doesn't, cannot comment unless they test it themselves. It seems many want to come up with their own conclusions. But in my own experience, you cannot make a judgement unless you have satisfied your assumption. So how engineer who are skilled in the industry can make direct comments without doing so is bizzare.

What is the true of this poduct? Is that it allows the compressor(s) running longer without stop. OKAY, it's logical
Is that it allows the compressor(s) keeping longer without stop. OKAY, it's logical.
That allows to the core product be maintained aprox. at the desired temperature. OKAY, it's logical.

BUT as we approach to the surface product this one will feel a higher temperature. I personally prefer to have a lower surface temperature on the core to achieve a lower temperature on the surface.

With a conventional probe I can up the set point of the controller and increase the differential.

mad fridgie
06-03-2012, 12:54 AM
I have to say I do like , the marketing.
No proof given of principle.
How do you know if you have not tried one?
So every refrig engineer, mechanic, tech, just gets one for testing. Regardless if it works or it does not.
HOW MANY MILLIONS OF DOLLARS WOULD HE MAKE.
No need for guarantees as it classed as a trial.
Or even better, he can do the install and the testing, and give you the results you think you want the hear.
Genius! I wish I had the balls, to push such a concept.

mechanicalman
06-03-2012, 03:29 AM
Not at all, NO FREE TRIAL offer, just cannot stand the fact other engineers are dragging something down we have had success with. We had the balls to try and only for the fact a customer had heard about it through a magazine in Canada about a company call Pizza Pizza who installed the product in over 100 restaurants, and had an overall 15% energy saving and a 50% reduction in compressor starts. So that is why we tested it on there behalf. And the product doesn't measure core temperatures, but 15mm below the surface in line with food temperature monitoring.

Maybe in six weeks, six months or even six years you will be testing this product or something similar, but at some point your customers will also be looking for food temperature monitoring instead of air temperatures. Please after speaking directly to the company, this product was originally designed as a food monitoring application, and the reduction in compressor starts and energy savings were stumbled upon as a secondary bonus.

"Remember those who bang the drum the loudest get heard"

mad fridgie
06-03-2012, 04:03 AM
Not at all, NO FREE TRIAL offer, just cannot stand the fact other engineers are dragging something down we have had success with. We had the balls to try and only for the fact a customer had heard about it through a magazine in Canada about a company call Pizza Pizza who installed the product in over 100 restaurants, and had an overall 15% energy saving and a 50% reduction in compressor starts. So that is why we tested it on there behalf. And the product doesn't measure core temperatures, but 15mm below the surface in line with food temperature monitoring.

Maybe in six weeks, six months or even six years you will be testing this product or something similar, but at some point your customers will also be looking for food temperature monitoring instead of air temperatures. Please after speaking directly to the company, this product was originally designed as a food monitoring application, and the reduction in compressor starts and energy savings were stumbled upon as a secondary bonus.

"Remember those who bang the drum the loudest get heard"

Now you are making some sense, the product is excellent for food temperature monitoring and temp indication dampening, as shown by many who have used all sorts, including a bit of gunk. And many clients have such products installed.
The anti cycling of course is a benefit, but this benefit has been known and used for "O" so many years, in the old days, it was standard to have large diffs on stats and pressure switches, which gave average acceptable core temps. But with the need for close control (real or not), is being implemented, yes short cycling occurs, but nowadays many instruments have anti-cycle times as standard, to reduce, not eliminate some of the starts per hour.
The refrigeration industry in general terms is there to ensure the food quality and life, is kept as and long as possible, If some one could find an exceptable system, that does the same job as refrigeration then they would likely use it.

mikeref
06-03-2012, 08:31 AM
There is the area of genetically modified foods, as well as processed meats. Faster ways to grow all food types, then the methods farmers use on livestock to make them produce more milk, or bigger, heavier cattle and pigs, goats whatever, with what they are fed. One scenario leads to another. Are these products we see every day on refrigerated shelves or deep frozen in island freezers, likely to deteriorate more quickly with a wider variation of air temperature, when the thermostat sensor is in one of these endocubes?
What bothers me is the ever-present, and mutating bacteria and viruses. Call me old school with the care i take of my customers livelyhood, but i put my faith in maintaining the best possible method of preservation available today. Precise air temps.
Sea food must be one of the worst products to keep in check. Limited life span and can easily conceal Salmonella, if the coldroom air temperature is not kept within >< temperature. Doesn't matter any more if someone ends up in hospital because a retailer attempted to save some money on running costs of his refrigeration... He's lost a customer or two (hundred) and gone to the wall. Should the retailer/wholesaler go down, who will be next in line?
As "Mad" mentioned, "Close control"
Until there is solid, unquestionable methods of maintaining, or should i say, safely preserving products, then i will continue with the tried and true practice of today....Mike. :)

mechanicalman
10-03-2012, 06:04 AM
Air temperatures rise much faster than food temperatures. but it isn't reading core temperatures. they say 10mm below the surface temperature. BIG difference wouldn't you agree.

desA
10-03-2012, 07:25 AM
The price of snake oil in USD/L?

mechanicalman
12-03-2012, 08:00 PM
Well it seems we have all sparked enough interest however negative or positive for the company to advertise on this site.