Aluminium or Copper?

[CraigNorris]

I’ve just been reading this article on aluminium replacing copper pipework over at RAC Magazine: http://www.racplus.com/issues/rising-prices-turn-attention-to-aluminium/8624766.article

Does a cheaper material that performs better sound a little too good to be true? Anyone got any experience of working with aluminium rather than copper pipework?

[chemi-cool]

I have seen these pipes before, they are fine as long as you don't need to braze them.
The aluminium out layer is holding the copper inside, very useful and value for money for small AC jobs.

[charlie patt]

well every fridge pipe with alloy on the outside i have ever dealt with rotts out. and should you wrap it in armaflex its 10 times worse you can have a perfectley good alloy pipe with one pinprick in it where the water sits and it rotts out, just ask disco 3 and jag owners.iarp tried it on serovers to help subcooling if you had a gas leak cut of thesuction pipe insulation and there it was a leak on a bend or where the join was. if it works it will be great, lighter cheaper easier to bend and meant to kink less also the other problem is have you ever seen alloy when on a fridge circuit it springs a leak and aint used for a bit the air just reacts and the inside of the pipes andblisters nice big driers then?

[TonyECO]

My company is one of the companies featured in this article - if anyone wants to learn more about the reasons to switching to aluminium pipe I would be happy to answer any questions

[stufus]

I smell a rat...
One new member raises the subject and another with a vested interest appears.
If this turns out like the last copper/ali thread ,it should be very interesting.
http://www.refrigeration-engineer.com/forums/showthread.php?33446-Aluminium-Pipe&highlight=copper+alimnium

C (http://www.refrigeration-engineer.com/forums/showthread.php?33446-Aluminium-Pipe&highlight=copper+alimnium)heers
Stu

[install monkey]

stufus- i havent seen any wholesalers who sells the stuff,also ive not seen any other contractors using it

[monkey spanners]

I don't see how replacing copper pipe with an aluminimium one could save money, surely it would be cheaper to leave it as it is????

[TonyECO]

Hello Stu, No rats to smell - read the article - it names me and my company - so I am being clear and yes I do have a vested interest, but all I want from the forum is to educate on the the option of using aluminium pipe

[monkey spanners]

Hello Stu, No rats to smell - read the article - it names me and my company - so I am being clear and yes I do have a vested interest, but all I want from the forum is to educate on the the option of using aluminium pipe

Are you doing any free samples like Lawton tubes are?

Thinking of doing a review for my youtube channel.

[TonyECO]

Hello Stu - no rats to smell - if you read the article on the link above - you will see that I am named within
As this is a open forum I thought I could express my views and give anyone advice on the product

[TonyECO]

The product is available from a national wholesaler and several independants - the rest of the trade is testing

[install monkey]

tony- the install eng who throws in splits keeping the left over copper as a token gesture isnt going to convert to lawton or equivelent-due to when the eng has his lil trip to the scrap yard he wants top dollar- for the greedy companies and the 1 man band it would be financially viable and can increase profits and sometimes win a job by undercutting the rest who quote on copper pipe.

Hello Stu, No rats to smell - read the article - it names me and my company - so I am being clear and yes I do have a vested interest, but all I want from the forum is to educate on the the option of using aluminium pipe

[TonyECO]

Aluminium pipe is about a thrid of the price of copper

[TonyECO]

There are other savings to be made - which compensate for your scrap - plus the scrap yards are now being vetted as copper theft is so much on the increase. For the installer - you save/make money because cost of aluminium, no need for oxy/acet (cost saving), no need for nitrogen purge (cost saving), lighter to use (save time on labour)

[install monkey]

the next install i do i will give it a go-and report back my findings- it better be a 14mtr piperun-otherwise im gonna have to spray the scrap copper coloured

[stufus]

Fair enough Tony ,Just checking.
Have not used any incarnation of this pipe and have no inclination to do so.
Have yet to hear any positive feed back about it on this side of the water.
Have heard of a few companies trying it out ,but that seems to be as far as they go.
Proof is in the pudding ,time will tell.
Cheers
Stu

[TonyECO]

The coils come in 50 mtr lengths, boxed, so that you can use what you need and put the rest in the box for next job.

[install monkey]

got plenty to kink then haha

The coils come in 50 mtr lengths, boxed, so that you can use what you need and put the rest in the box for next job.

[TonyECO]

Stu, our aluminium pipe is not like anything that you have seen as yet, it has been developed for our industry, not a mix of copper/aluminium, it is 99.7% aluminium extruded pipe, with a specialist brazing rod developed for the purpose.

[TonyECO]

Doesn't kink, you use all the same tools that you have already, but with less effort, bends easy, rasts, easy a joy to use

[install monkey]

1 problem-for the 1 man band trying to make a good profit on a job-has to outlay for 50mtr of pipe-at 30% less than copper- so his first job he aint gonna earn a bean- only after 40 mtr of pipe is he gonna see a profit on material cost side-big companies no problems with initial outlay

[TonyECO]

Doesn't kink, you use all the same tools that you have already, but with less effort, bends easy, rasts, easy a joy to use

[monkey spanners]

Does it need a thicker wall to cope with the pressure? or is it the same thickness as copper?

Are there any fittings avaiable, t's 90's reducers?

Can you join it to steel such as rotalock valves or copper and copper plate stubs as in driers or txvs?

Or is it aimed at the small split air con market?

As a self employed person at the moment i would rather make less money and use copper but i am open to new ideas and technologies.

[install monkey]

i bend pipe using me knee-normally upto 3/4- would i have to anneal it? how tight a radius can you get compared to copper- also ill have to check my skin isnt allergic to ali pipe

[frank]

This thread is fast becoming an advert....not a discussion on the differences between copper and aluminium pipe.

Lets get back on track.....

[stufus]

Funny how the OP is watching but not chirping up.
Cheers
Stu

[install monkey]

how does this pipe compare to copper in the thermal expansion? ie on a 410 heatpump ur pipework is exposed to pipe temps from 1 to 40 deg- its all well having a high bursting pressure-but when its connected to a brass flare nut on a brass valve? -u dont want to return to pressure test a system with an occasional leak!!- i am willing to try it but i want to ensure reliability

[charlie patt]

tony can you give me some answers please
1/ what i have been quoted for the alloy pipe 50m i can but copper for same money
2/ when i armaflex alloy pipe and the moisture sits there is it going to rot and go pourous
3/ what is the reaction with salt air/ sea its salt water tested but so was the last tesy alloy condesor we fitted by the sea it lasted 13 months and went pourous
4/ the noise resinates more via alloy than copper so is the wall thicker on alloy to allow for this
i dont want any body to think i am anti alluminium but i have had previous issues on it ta charlie

[monkey spanners]

tony can you give me some answers please
1/ what i have been quoted for the alloy pipe 50m i can but copper for same money
2/ when i armaflex alloy pipe and the moisture sits there is it going to rot and go pourous
3/ what is the reaction with salt air/ sea its salt water tested but so was the last tesy alloy condesor we fitted by the sea it lasted 13 months and went pourous
4/ the noise resinates more via alloy than copper so is the wall thicker on alloy to allow for this
i dont want any body to think i am anti alluminium but i have had previous issues on it ta charlie

Good points!

Got me thinking, often talc is used to help feed on insulation on, would there be a reaction with the ali to talc?

[CraigNorris]

I’ve not chipped in again as I don’t have anything much to add to the conversation Stu. I would like to see answers from Tony to the questions raised by both monkeys (install and spanner) as well as charlie patt. I remain unconvinced that something can be cheaper and better at the same time, but will continue watching with interest to see if those guys have spotted a flaw that isn’t mentioned in the article.


Funny how the OP is watching but not chirping up.
Cheers
Stu

[charlie patt]

i no its not commercial but land rover have stopped makeing the pipes on there disco 3 until they have sorted the issues with alloy pipes going pourous when its sat in armaflex it pits and leaks the newest one i have done is a eleven plate not even twelve months old leaking on a elbow where the moisture sits and the pipe was on the inside of the vechicle to

[MikeHolm]

Frank, you may have scared Tony away. I would like to get answers to the questions/comments from the lads.

[TonyECO]

Hello Mike,

Not scared away at all - just busy - we have a product here which has been three years in development and in which we have the confidence to give a 3 year warranty - I will answer all questions in due course, Thanks

[TonyECO]

Ok - A bit of free time now to cover your questions;

Monkey Spanners - the pipe has a thicker wall to compensate for pressure O/D remains the same as standard acr pipe the pipe has been certified and pressure tested to 2400psi

We currently have in development straight lengths, and all fittings but as with the pipe we now have this will not come to market until fully tested and certified

At present our brazing rod will not join steel to copper

It works very well in the split market with some systems being able to be installed with no brazing at all

For Install Monkey

You can bend 3/4 easily Requires less strength to bend, Light weight & offers better flexibility than copper
Does not kink as easily compared to copper, Using the same set of bending tools as copper and not sure why you would have an allergic reaction to ali pipe unless of course you were installing it naked?

For Charlie Patt

1. Can't see why you have been quoted same as copper on ali pipe maybe it wasn't our product - generally as a comparison you need to take the cost of your 30m copper coil divide by 30 to get your metre price and then times this by 50 - then you get your comparison and savings

2. The pipe creates its own protective layer when exposed to atmosphere which actually gives it a lower corrosion rate than copper

3. Reaction salt/salt air our product is 99.7% ali, the reaction form sea is ususally due to the thickness of the pipe as stated our pipe is thicker therefore we forsee no problems here

4. The wall thickness of the pipe has been taken into account for what you describe as sound resonation

Hopefully this answers a few more of your questions - one other thing to take into account - copper is virtually no longer left in the earth to be mined so if we don't do something now - what will you use?

[chemi-cool]

one other thing to take into account - copper is virtually no longer left in the earth to be mined so if we don't do something now - what will you use?

Where did you get the idea? Copper is here to stay long after me and you.

[charlie patt]

hrp quoted me the copper and cars the alloy hrp cheaper at the moment/ whats this protective layer you have is it something you are adding to the pipework you are makeing, and the salt issue aint the real issue its the fact when alloy sits in armaflex its reacts mainly wherever the moisture sits on bends on flats etc yes i am mainly talking about vechicles but i have had it on commercial stuff and yes the wall thickness is a lot thinner but i have had pipes go in less than 6 months on both commercial and vechicle when its sat in flex and it can be on the inside. this proective layer is my main question is it in the alloy all the way through, can it be scratched and removed when rolled out does it need applying on?, i no that copper is short i just thought we would go over to some form of plastic at some point if your that happy with it send down two reels i have 32 ac units going in at newquay next month lets try some on a small pipe run i will only need 10 metres and sea what it does 31 units are staying but we no we have to move 1 unit in dec 2012 so we can remove the pipework and sea what it does

[MikeHolm]

Where did you get the idea? Copper is here to stay long after me and you.

Chemi, unfortunately, he is is right. Copper is becoming more and more scarce. The Chinese are hording it and everyone is trying to find ways to use other metals and Aluminum is abundant. True, it is less reactive so it will last longer (if the pikeys don't get it)

[stufus]

As Frank said this is turning into an advertisement.
I fully appreciate Charlie's questions' which are all relevant to a new product .
And I would also be of the same mind as the OP.
Regardless of price, if ALI was as good as it's been made out to be surely it would have been rolled out for this type of application in abundance before now.
Best of luck in your venture Tony.
But I for one will stick to what I know and trust,by the time ALI is the industry norm(IF IT GOES THAT WAY) I'll be retired
Cheers
Stu

[TonyECO]

Mike - thanks - you have been reading well

Stufus - the reason it hasn't been out before now is that we have developed a specialist brazing rod for ali pipe
again not an advert - education - at the moment I can only dream of retirement

[chemi-cool]

Mike - thanks - you have been reading well

Stufus - the reason it hasn't been out before now is that we have developed a specialist brazing rod for ali pipe
again not an advert - education - at the moment I can only dream of retirement

So far you only said how good is your products,
Now you can post some papers with data about ali tubes and special rods.
You keep saying, mine is bigger, I want to see hard proof, bring out the papers.

[TonyECO]

We have all data sheets - same info can be found on our website - but if I load information on here it will be stated that I am advertising rather than educating - I am sure a moderator would indicate this?

[chemi-cool]

I will make you an offer you can't resist:
Ask the owner of your company to organised an open day for RE members where you can demonstrate all the pros and cones of ali tubing in AC&R, let them feel the material, make solder connections, make salt bath tests, dine them with good lunch and beer, give everyone a folder with all the data they need to make a decision, a small key holder with the company emblem and phone number. I believe that 12 people will do.

Afterward, they will come back here and spread the massage. [or not]

What say you?

[stufus]

Upload the info to rapidshare and post the link then those who are interested can check it out.
Cheers
Stu

[charlie patt]

tony would you mind answering my last questions please

[frank]

Upload the info to rapidshare and post the link then those who are interested can check it out.
Cheers
Stu
That will mean missing out on the lunch and beer Stu......

[install monkey]

braided hose is the way when copper runs out-and yes i do install naked- except for the tool pouch! haha

Hopefully this answers a few more of your questions - one other thing to take into account - copper is virtuallno longer left in the earth to be mined so if we don't do something now - what will you use?[/QUOTE]
also if theres food and beer then what about the free pen?

[chemi-cool]

A pen will be in the folder you will get there. How did you think you will write notes??

[stufus]

Fair point Frank
Cheers
Stu

That will mean missing out on the lunch and beer Stu......

[TonyECO]

Hello,
The pipe carries a 3 year warranty against any manufactured defects - I would hope that this would cover your requirments

[TonyECO]

The Question of an RE Open Day - If someone could advise if they have an interest in this then we would consider - I don't need to ask the owner of the company as that is myself.

Things to consider - location, date time - all suggestions welcome

[chemi-cool]

Good decision tony, sorry I cant attend, 4500 km away.
I am sure there will be enough curious techs here.

And for all of you who are seriously want to learn about new technology, please, PM Tony with all your details.
Best of luck Tony.

[charlie patt]

just had a sample of the alloy sent down, what is this new chemical film on it it looks exactly like thick wall alloy to me want to try it and read all the leaflets but still worried about the corrioson when lagged or in a wet enviroment //

[TonyECO]

Charlie,
There is no chemical film? - aluminium has very low corrosion rates compared to steel or copper. This is due to the protecting oxide layer that forms on the surface when exposed to the environment

[charlie patt]

so what have i read wrong i thougt there was a new protective layer/ if its just like standard alloy in 5 years time it will need to be replaced / as far as natural reaction with air to provide a protective seal i cant agree only today cut out 4mm wall alloy tube of a 4 year old deck, pourous as hell now yes we get this in copper but not at 4 mm thick unless its a reevap coil what am i missing here tony

[TonyECO]

Charlie,

Find my website - send me an email - I will then have your email address to which I can send all the relevant data - which will hopefully answer all your questions?

[TonyECO]

Well I am dissapointed to see that no one after all of the negative comments is open to attend an event where they could actually see and then criticise on our product - poor show really

[monkey spanners]

Well I am dissapointed to see that no one after all of the negative comments is open to attend an event where they could actually see and then criticise on our product - poor show really

When and where? If its reasonably local and i'm not called away on a breakdown or site visit i'd come and have a look or, are you going to have a stand at the ACR show next month?

http://www.acrshow.co.uk/

Many may see your product as reinventing the wheel, we already have pipe thats easy to use and join and has a proven track record.
I'm not overly bothered by the price, every system needs pipe so its a level playing field at the moment.
Its a bit like when hauliers complain about the price of diesel, when the real problem is people undercutting to get work which cheaper products won't change.
In your products case, what it could do is mean i make LESS money, if the jobs i'm quoting against have been price cut by others to use cheaper materials that i may chose not to. Or i end up using it and still only making the same as the price per install goes down.

Time will tell :D

[install monkey]

if the scrap value increased more than £4.20 a kilo( current copper prices in the north) then youd be shifting more of it, and if there are any flaws/problems then no doubt youd get feedback. as monkeyspanners mentioned -inventing the wheel,also the term teaching monkeys new tricks springs to mind-good luck

Well I am dissapointed to see that no one after all of the negative comments is open to attend an event where they could actually see and then criticise on our product - poor show really

[charlie patt]

the biggest problem i believe is we where being told its a new product but all the questions i have asked have not been answered i got a sample sent down AND IS STANDARD ALLOY and i personally would not trust it not to have problems when wrapped in armaflex with pitting, the other problem tony is as fridge engineers we work big hrs and if we are going to get bits of the wholesalers and you are there doing a demo then fine we will listen of course there must be a bacon sandwhich involved. we are all willing to try new items but we have been down this road before with alloys and that was before 410 was being used. copper is running out we realise that and we are not just sticking our heads in the sand if we can make a cost saveing and have good product its a done deal but we just dont trust it/ a 3 year warrantie is great but when its hidden in behind a wall is it enough/ i have no idea what warrantie copper comes with but excludeing a builders nail or bad workmanship i have not had a copper coil or half hard leak we get pourous re evap coils but after several years in harsh conditions our industry does move on such as digital controllers/ invertors eevs etc etc but we as engineers need a decent product at a decent price and be as reliable as poss to keep the customer in 5 years time there are plenty of trade shows and i have offered to test a set of coils as its comeing out in december so we could inspect it? but no answer if you dont like the answer tony dont ask the questions

[Makeit go Right]

All very well showing how to join it up but what is needed is some sensible explanation about the differing coefficients of expansion.

I still can't get my head round how these two different metals with VERY different coefficients of expansion fused together somehow, one tight against the other ...... ie one metal expands faster/further than the other, as they both warm up/cool. How does that work if the two metals are joined tight together? Something has to give if one metal wants to expand more than the other. These can be massive forces.

Copper: Coefficient of expansion: 9.8 (microinch/(in oF))
Aluminium: Coefficient of expansion: 13.1

3years is no good, either. You need to be sure the pipes will outlast the system, say 15-20years or so.
The last thing you want is to hear of systems blowing up under stress... lost gas, damaged kit..... after you have put in 3-4 years of them installs. If the pipework is not fit, there will be no hiding place for the installer.

So, explain how these two very differently expanding metals can co exist in a single pipe, please, without one separating from the other.

[TonyECO]

MakeIt Go Right
The product you are indicated is not ours - eco is a product that is only aluminium - to the others - Yes I will be at the ACR show but not exhibiting, however if you want to speak with me at the show - I am open to that and maybe we can address your concerns. - For all of you - I was and maybe considered by some to be an engineer -