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View Full Version : City and Guilds 2079 and refrigerant removal from Cars?







Grizzly
27-01-2012, 06:32 PM
Can anyone advise.
I hold a full C&G 2079, does this constitute the "appropriate qualification"
necessary to allow me to recover R134a from Vehicles?

Grizzly

The Viking
27-01-2012, 07:38 PM
Apparently not?
Reading the info from DEFRA's website HERE (http://archive.defra.gov.uk/environment/quality/air/fgas/documents/fgassupport-mac5.pdf), you need a C&G 5101 which probably will take the whole of 2 hours to gain...
:(
More money for somebody, or am I just too old and getting cynical?

.

Grizzly
27-01-2012, 09:05 PM
Apparently not?
Reading the info from DEFRA's website HERE (http://archive.defra.gov.uk/environment/quality/air/fgas/documents/fgassupport-mac5.pdf), you need a C&G 5101 which probably will take the whole of 2 hours to gain...
:(
More money for somebody, or am I just too old and getting cynical?

.

I thought the same my friend.
But having dug deeper, It would seem suitably qualified is the benchmark.
Therefore I would argue full Fgas be it C&G or CITB would suffice?
Taken from the UK F gas regs 2009.

I quote:
Qualifications relating to air conditioning systems in motor vehiclesThis section has no associated Explanatory Memorandum
40.—(1) Subject to paragraphs (2) and (3) and regulation 41 (http://www.legislation.gov.uk/uksi/2009/261/regulation/40/made##), it is an offence if an individual—(a)recovers fluorinated greenhouse gases from an air conditioning system in a motor car or a motor van, and
(b)does not hold an air conditioning qualification,
in contravention of Article 2.1 of Commission Regulation 307/2008.(2) Paragraph (1) does not apply to an individual who—(a)is enrolled on a training course for the purpose of obtaining an air conditioning qualification, and
(b)recovers fluorinated greenhouse gases from an air conditioning system in a motor car or a motor van under the supervision of an individual who does hold such a qualification,
for a period of one year from the date on which that individual enrolled on the training course referred to in sub-paragraph (a).(3) Up to and including 3rd July 2010, paragraph (1) does not apply to an individual who holds a qualification referred to in Schedule 1.(4) In this regulation—(a)“motor car” means a motor vehicle which—
(i)has at least four wheels,
(ii)is used for the carriage of passengers, and
(iii)has no more than nine seats, including the seat for the driver;
(b)“motor van” means a motor vehicle which—
(i)has at least four wheels,
(ii)has a maximum weight not exceeding 1.305 metric tons, and
(iii)is used for the carriage of goods;
(c)“air conditioning qualification” means a valid attestation issued under Article 3.2 of Commission Regulation 307/2008 by an attestation body referred to in regulation 39(2).

40(b) being the clincher!

Grizzly

Magoo
27-01-2012, 10:57 PM
Hi Grizzly.
seems trade training now will now require doing a Law paper at universty so as to interprute all legal regulations.

Grizzly
27-01-2012, 11:16 PM
Close but no cigar!
Smoking is now banned in public places within the UK.
No! Seriously.

You are closer to the truth than you think Magoo.

Basically in so many forms of working life now.
It does not seem to matter how much experience and knowledge you have.

People are queuing up to tell you what you cannot do.
Power to the forum!

We collectively can put a reasoned argument forward.

Mine is I am qualified.

Does anyone disagree?
Grizzly

Magoo
27-01-2012, 11:51 PM
Hi Grizzly.
we are on the same page, but lately experience does not count any more. A ten thousand hour apprenticeship and forty plus years experience is worth diddly squot. I thought all the hoops and regulations with ammonia was a mine feild, now ***** based systems are a bigger challenge.

monkey spanners
27-01-2012, 11:54 PM
If you've got your f gas ticket then you can work on things with f gasses in. simples

install monkey
28-01-2012, 12:06 AM
maybe if you did a 2yr yts apprenticeship in motor mechanics then you would be suitably qualified, you need to be familiar with the working enviroment.

Grizzly
28-01-2012, 12:35 AM
If you've got your f gas ticket then you can work on things with f gasses in. simples

Bless You Brother!


maybe if you did a 2yr yrs apprenticeship in motor mechanics then you would be suitably qualified, you need to be familiar with the working environment

I have enough city and guilds qualifications, for when recently applying for a Skill Card (Refrigeration).
I received an email from them querying what trade I would like put on my skill card! True!
That just means I have been lucky with people allowing me to do these courses.
Sadly you may be correct IM?


I thought all the hoops and regulations with ammonia was a mine field, now ***** based systems are a bigger challenge.


The more people form an opinion the harder it is to disprove it.

I think this set of legislation is loosely enough worded to be flexible?
I don't actually think the rulings are to stop Static Frigies more to allow the lesser trained vehicle A/c / mechanics through the loophole. (I don't mean our commercial vehicle colleagues by the way. Respect there!)
The only way tyres are us and kwickfit etc are regulated is the cost of the fully automated equipment they use!

Grizzly

monkey spanners
28-01-2012, 12:58 AM
Got talking to a Bentley mechanic who had stopped by, he was telling me how he'd had to go on a course to do car ac (and passed it!), but no disrespect to the guy, he had NO CLUE WHATSOEVER!!! didn't even know how the system worked and where all the basic components are.... I was genuinly shocked at the apparent low skill level you needed to pass the car test.

The car ticket is the J8 which is just 'recovery of refrigerants', seems to me the full J11 or City and Guilds one cover refrigerant recovery amongst other things. The only thing you could be accused of is being over qualified for working on cars!

Grizzly
28-01-2012, 01:02 AM
Got talking to a Bentley mechanic who had stopped by, he was telling me how he'd had to go on a course to do car ac (and passed it!), but no disrespect to the guy, he had NO CLUE WHATSOEVER!!! didn't even know how the system worked and where all the basic components are.... I was genuinely shocked at the apparent low skill level you needed to pass the car test.

The car ticket is the J8 which is just 'recovery of refrigerants', seems to me the full J11 or City and Guilds one cover refrigerant recovery amongst other things. The only thing you could be accused of is being over qualified for working on cars!

Yeah! The local scrap yard (Breakers) owner passed his at the local college, a similar story.

Grizzly

Quality
28-01-2012, 12:57 PM
If you've got your f gas ticket then you can work on things with f gasses in. simples

Yes thats the fact, there are 2 European directives 307 and 842 which separate the two i.e. mobile and stationary. But its all up in the air regarding the two as one qual has a level 3 (mobile) and the other a level 2 (stationary)

Its a bit of a joke really but anyway 5101 has been replace with 7543 and expect in a year or two that 2079 to be replaced with 2080

cold.man
28-01-2012, 01:26 PM
money spinner springs to mind !!!!!
corgie now = gas safe
16th edition now = 17th edition
2078 now = 2079
i can understand regulations etc change but its upto the induvidual or company employing the indivuduals to keep up with the standards.
look at are trade for instance how many years have we been working with HFC refrigerants before the 2079 became a requirement.
not sure how many other trades now have new licensing they have to adhere to, when you look at the costs involved in attaining these licenses somones rubbing the hands together CHING CHING !!!!.
the whole point in licensing is to keep unlicensed induviduals or companies working in the industry me personally i don't see a dramatic change, obviously i am fully aware of global warming and ozone depletion and the education aspect of it all which i agree with, but its amazing what these organizations hide behind aswell.
like i say it just a big MONEY SPINNER !!!!!

Quality
28-01-2012, 02:17 PM
Its the EU and the certifying bodies that make most of the money just like speeding on the motorway etc Mot testers have to be retested periodical it does not make your mot any cheaper.

A statment I beleive in is that - the nation needs to be treat as they are not how they should be

cadwaladr
31-01-2012, 09:43 PM
got 2079 not been asked by anybody to show it its a joke still see people in various wholesalers who cannot even do their laces up buying gas nitro etc? where are the fridge police enforcers.

cold.man
31-01-2012, 11:31 PM
ive heard of companies getting a tug by the relevant organisations but not individuals i may be wrong there but not entirley sure. I haven't heard of ant individual getting a tug.

maybe its the case that going after individuals is far to time consuming and a waste of resources whan the can just drop an audit on a company.

you would think there would be a data base where as if your name is not on it you cannot buy refrigerant every refrigerant supplier should have access to the data base.

Tayters
01-02-2012, 12:15 AM
Hey Cold Man,

I've been guilty of the odd tug.......... but not where Flourinated gases are concerned.

Tradewinds
01-02-2012, 01:16 AM
Hi Grizzly,
I asked this of F Gas support back in May last year and this was their reply:

"Personnel who recover refrigerant from mobile equipment should hold an appropriate qualification. This could be with a stationary or a mobile equipment qualification that meets the Commission’s minimum requirements, please see MAC 5 or RAC 5 for details about these qualifications. So a C&G 2079 would be acceptable."

Hope that helps.

wilt
20-02-2012, 08:36 PM
Hi Grizzly,
Noted your comments about hfc vehicle recovering etc,although i hold a full C&G 2079,it puts me to wonder,I Install vehicle refrigeration systems that run on R404A ie Home delivery vans so does that mean i should also require C&G 5101?there seems to some confusion with regards to this 'F' Gas Red Tape.The Course Instructor knew the nature of our buisness but did not quote anything about C&G 5101,So i think i am suitably qualified?

Grizzly
20-02-2012, 10:00 PM
Hi Grizzly,
Noted your comments about hfc vehicle recovering etc,although i hold a full C&G 2079,it puts me to wonder,I Install vehicle refrigeration systems that run on R404A ie Home delivery vans so does that mean i should also require C&G 5101?there seems to some confusion with regards to this 'F' Gas Red Tape.The Course Instructor knew the nature of our buisness but did not quote anything about C&G 5101,So i think i am suitably qualified?

Yep as Trade winds and other wise trainers have stated. Having C&G 2079 or the CITB equivalent more than covers reclaiming / recovering from vehicles.
If you dig deep enough the answers are there.

Grizzly

cadwaladr
21-02-2012, 09:05 PM
wow today i showed my 2079,to a company called screwfix to get stuff from the trade counter the laugh is i was buying electrical stuff?.

djbe
22-02-2012, 09:29 PM
wow today i showed my 2079,to a company called screwfix to get stuff from the trade counter the laugh is i was buying electrical stuff?.

Why did you need to show it???

cadwaladr
23-02-2012, 01:05 AM
Why did you need to show it???its their policy to stop none trade using trade counter and getting extra discount,i wish fridge wholesalers would ask for some sort of proof you are in the trade!

djbe
24-02-2012, 11:18 PM
"i wish fridge wholesalers would ask for some sort of proof you are in the trade!"

I think that is a wish that many of us will be sharing for many years to come yet? As long as there is a profit to be made the will sell to anybody.