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refcon32
09-12-2011, 10:12 PM
Hi,

Looking for help on a Daikin REYP16KJY1, that is R407c, three pipe system, heat recovery.
System has brought up a J5 error after being shut down for about six weeks, due to a leak on a Heat exchanger that has now been replaced, also some refnets were altered due to being over the recommended 30deg angle and were starving some indoor units of liquid refrigerant. So repairs were done and recharged with new refrigerant to known quantity. So on start up with a 4deg outside temperature and standing pressure of 100psi on high and low, the high pressure goes to 120psi and low gradually after about fifthteen minutes drops to 10psi and displays a J5 error ( suction thermistor system error ). So replaced the thermistor even though it was within perimeters on testing, still faulted so changed the pcb and still faulted. Reset outdoor unit, all indoor and bs units and still faulting. Checked all thermistors and pcb connections. Any ideas please.

stufus
09-12-2011, 10:38 PM
If you're 100% about the charge weight check all BS boxes are powered up ,sounds like it maybe getting starved and pumping down.
Cheers
Stu

install monkey
09-12-2011, 10:44 PM
did u drive all the valves open to degas and pressure test and vac?? is the calculated charge correct?, is there a similar system u can compare the system charge to

Airconking
09-12-2011, 10:57 PM
10psi is a low bk pressure, what's the discharge temp? Sounds like it's short of gas
To me.

refcon32
09-12-2011, 11:17 PM
This work on system all started by warranty work by the company who origanally fitted the system, and fitted the refnets at wrong angle, causing starvation to fan coil units and refnets bursting due to hydrozorb brackets too tight causing stress to pipe work with expansion and contraction causing refnets to split. I am site fridge engineer and overseeing project. I did observe when the engineer was recharghing that he never used the refrigerant charging mode, and was struggling to charge system as it was starting to fault on receiving refrigerant which I thought was down to system trying to run on low charge, so I made him aware of this, Talking to him on this discovered he did not use recovery mode when recovered or vacumed. He told me he recovered from each line, e.g liquid, suction and discharge which alarmed me. As I am thinking valves have opened and shut during vacum and recharge and thinking there is possibly OFN left in system and then refrigerant has been added. what is your thoughts.
did u drive all the valves open to degas and pressure test and vac?? is the calculated charge correct?, is there a similar system u can compare the system charge to

refcon32
09-12-2011, 11:26 PM
The discharge temp is related to 120psi on 407c, It is definetly not short on charge as previous records are on site and new calculations of pipe runs were done to veryfy charge
10psi is a low bk pressure, what's the discharge temp? Sounds like it's short of gas
To me.

install monkey
09-12-2011, 11:30 PM
exactly!,its only vrv3 that has the auto charge mode, u add the setting on the outdoor unit to enable all valves to energise for all repairs, add approx 80% of the calculated charge then run the autocharge. if these muppets are fitting refnets over 30 deg then they want shooting- and as for hydrazorb clips ant not knowing that the refnets split with linear expansion then they havnt done daikins vrv 2 day course!!!- did daikin comission it?? otherwise ur only gonna get a 12mth warranty- if they did comission it then check the report for other issues, good luck

Airconking
09-12-2011, 11:40 PM
Would The head pressure be much higher if u had OFN in the system? Like monkey said, they sound
Like rite muppets fitting the refnets out of the 30' angle range!

refcon32
09-12-2011, 11:41 PM
Beleive it or not this system was actually fitted in 2002 and after a legal battle, the install company are now in for repairs. warranty is long gone and a fortune has been spent of refnet repairs up till now. Have u any suggestions on getting the system up and running to get heat in to building, there are six basically identical systems. Am am talking about refrigerant recovery again, scrapping and new refrigerant again or can u suggest anything else

refcon32
09-12-2011, 11:53 PM
oops. posted that twice. was thinking of putting system into cooling only to see if four way valve was jamming, But system was running perfect before shutdown for repairs. Just cant get this J5 error cleared and done all checks, repairs possible for eror and cant understand why it still is present.

install monkey
10-12-2011, 12:05 AM
check ur e mail

refcon32
10-12-2011, 12:05 AM
Dont know exactley what OFN in the system would do, Obviousley I know it is an Inert gas, But cant process what effect it would have, pressure wise, is it non condensable, causing components to freeze. I am not sure.
Would The head pressure be much higher if u had OFN in the system? Like monkey said, they sound
Like rite muppets fitting the refnets out of the 30' angle range!

stufus
10-12-2011, 12:08 AM
Make sure the clown opened all the service valves when he was finished..
Cheers
Stu

install monkey
10-12-2011, 12:09 AM
high head and high suction,also loss of loss of performance

refcon32
10-12-2011, 12:24 AM
Thanks for that post monkey, Beleive it or not been looking for service manual for over a year with no joy. I know most manuals are similar but the specific manual is good to have, thank you very much. Had a quick look at J5 error on manual and done everything asked of me and had no joy. hopefuly the high winds pick up and take my beloved outdoor unit away with them. Cant beleive this contractor recovered this system, done repairs and left site today without getting it up and running again in the middle of winter, with a view of not returning to site untill wed next week , leaving me with the headache of no heat in a part of building. by the way the said company r from ur neck of the woods. manks, L.O.L
check ur e mail

Airconking
10-12-2011, 12:26 AM
Thought so I.M.

refcon32
10-12-2011, 12:29 AM
I checked all the service valves. Liquid, Suction and gas on main unit and two pipe, High and low on bolt on unit. All were fine. As I said I am stumped to an answer to this, Whithout going back to basics and a full system check. ooh the joys, think I will smoke a 20 deck on that job alone
Make sure the clown opened all the service valves when he was finished..
Cheers
Stu

install monkey
10-12-2011, 12:33 AM
theres loads of crap companies about,before u ask i didnt fit it, bet u wish u asked 12mth ago! haha,good luck
drive the valves open and blow nitrogen and remove individual flare nuts to blow nitrogen/cra,p out of the lines as theu prob didnt use nitro when brazing- id like to know which cowboy company fitted it!-dont broadcast it though haha

refcon32
10-12-2011, 12:57 AM
I would like to broadcast but more than my jobs worth. But lets just say major Daikin approved installer at the time Any ideas what u would do to get system working, I am not the most experienced fridge engineer, after six years experience on field but constantley reading and learning, but this has a brick wall without a Daiken service analiser, and dont know if that will shed any light as only shows thermisters and current. etc.

install monkey
10-12-2011, 01:09 AM
measure the pipe sizes calculate the additional charge, degass and weigh out whats charged,blow nitro through then a good vac and run it,see if theres any improvement

r.bartlett
10-12-2011, 08:30 AM
Contact VRVIII here and he'll come and sort it

AbsoluteWDJ
10-12-2011, 07:09 PM
If I were you......

1. Check the replacement outdoor board has had the correct capacity addressed (16HP). This will be in the service manual.
2. Check the outdoor PCB is communicating with the actual amount of BS & indoor units. There will be an example of BS/indoor unit check in the service manual.
3. Once system has initialised (H3P - ON) and is communicating, then set refrigerant recovery mode and start from the beginning with regards reclaiming, pressure testing, evacuating and additional charging.
4. Measure and note the liquid line lengths & sizes. Calculate correct additional charge.
5. Recharge the system with new R407c and don't forget to add the factory charge and additional charge together for the system total charge. (liquid charge only R407c).

You're obviously not convinced the remedial work has been carried out correctly and I very much doubt my opinion is what you wanted to hear but I believe this is what you'll have to do before you can move on to any other fault finding. Good luck.

refcon32
18-12-2011, 01:36 AM
Just a quick update, suction press's urge was 10psi, discharge was 70 psi, and liquid was aa constant 100 psi. Tested all thermistors, pressure switches and sensors. Then found eev Y3E was faulty, so replaced the eev motor. Suction has now went to 30 psi, discharge is 200 psi and liquid is 240 psi. So there was liquid starvation due to faulty eev. Still faulting on J5 error on heating, though cooling fine. Still got a. Few checks to make still. For liquid starvation, including compressors and other eev's, thermistors again. Any ideas.

VRVIII
19-12-2011, 11:01 PM
discharge is 200 psi and liquid is 240 psi. Still faulting on J5 error on heating, though cooling fine. Still got a. Few checks to make still. For liquid starvation, including compressors and other eev's, thermistors again. Any ideas.

I suspect you're getting mixed up with discharge and liquid pipes or the units cross piped, the liquid press can't be higher than the discharge.
Have you metered out and verified the calibration of all outdoor unit thermitors and pressure transducers? The EV's are controlled based on the information sent by the sensors and the unit is tripping on a J5 sensor error. If the unit 10 years old it's highly possible that a couple of sensors will be out of calibration.

refcon32
20-12-2011, 07:09 PM
I suspect you're getting mixed up with discharge and liquid pipes or the units cross piped, the liquid press can't be higher than the discharge.
Have you metered out and verified the calibration of all outdoor unit thermitors and pressure transducers? The EV's are controlled based on the information sent by the sensors and the unit is tripping on a J5 sensor error. If the unit 10 years old it's highly possible that a couple of sensors will be out of calibration.Tested all 12 thermistors again today, proved all three compressors came on before it went down after about twenty minutes. Liquid was definitely higher than discharge at one point. Never had gauges on liquid today as had them inside unit next to high and low sensors, and another set on discharge and suction service ports. Discharge went up to 240 psi and suction to 10 psi before faulting on J5 again. Also changed high and low sensors with ones from another identical system ( not new ). With no change to suction. Suction pipe frosts up to eev on hx1. 400psi pressure test went through system. Is the transducer the low sensor. Will compare liquid again tomorrow against discharge. Don't think the contractor could have connected refnets up wrong when repairing them, hope not anyway. What do you mean by calibrating sensors

AbsoluteWDJ
24-12-2011, 02:19 PM
(Suction to 10 psi) is too low. Have you reclaimed the system since the contractors worked on it?

refcon32
26-12-2011, 03:13 PM
(Suction to 10 psi) is too low. Have you reclaimed the system since the contractors worked on it?Yep, reclaimed blew through ofn vacuumed for five hours and recharged with same refrigerant r407c as it was new. Pipes are frosting up on suction side of eev1 serving hx1' eev3 serving hx3' though eev2 serving hx2 has no frost at all, so looks like eev1 and eev3 are closed and eev2 is opening as it should. Need to trace pipework temperatures, to see if eev bodies opening and closing. Not had time to work on this recently as too much going on at work with other systems. Goes off on j5 error after about 20 minutes and all suction pipes frosted up.

refcon32
26-12-2011, 03:24 PM
I suspect you're getting mixed up with discharge and liquid pipes or the units cross piped, the liquid press can't be higher than the discharge.
Have you metered out and verified the calibration of all outdoor unit thermitors and pressure transducers? The EV's are controlled based on the information sent by the sensors and the unit is tripping on a J5 sensor error. If the unit 10 years old it's highly possible that a couple of sensors will be out of calibration.After checking liquid against discharge pressures, liquid is lower than discharge, can only presume I calculated the conversion from bar to psi wrong as one set of gauges psi and other in bar.

AbsoluteWDJ
27-12-2011, 11:26 AM
Yep, reclaimed blew through ofn vacuumed for five hours and recharged with same refrigerant r407c as it was new. Pipes are frosting up on suction side of eev1 serving hx1' eev3 serving hx3' though eev2 serving hx2 has no frost at all, so looks like eev1 and eev3 are closed and eev2 is opening as it should. Need to trace pipework temperatures, to see if eev bodies opening and closing. Not had time to work on this recently as too much going on at work with other systems. Goes off on j5 error after about 20 minutes and all suction pipes frosted up.

Looking at the service manual for RSEYP16K, there appears to be only two heat exchangers and two expansion valves (one for each). Am I looking at the correct manual? If so, try operating system in full heating and measure the common suction pipe and suction pressure. Check the outdoor coils are not soiled and fan motors are in operation. If R407c isn't contaminated and the charge is correct then I'd probably look towards faulty expansion valve(s).

refcon32
27-12-2011, 04:26 PM
Looking at the service manual for RSEYP16K, there appears to be only two heat exchangers and two expansion valves (one for each). Am I looking at the correct manual? If so, try operating system in full heating and measure the common suction pipe and suction pressure. Check the outdoor coils are not soiled and fan motors are in operation. If R407c isn't contaminated and the charge is correct then I'd probably look towards faulty expansion valve(s).yes sorry it has a sub unit that takes it up to 26kw. checked solenoids electricaly and checked valves opened with a solenoid magnet,all ok. had gauges on main suction pipe next to low pressure switch and it was 10psi, same as at service valve

AbsoluteWDJ
27-12-2011, 05:42 PM
yes sorry it has a sub unit that takes it up to 26kw. checked solenoids electricaly and checked valves opened with a solenoid magnet,all ok. had gauges on main suction pipe next to low pressure switch and it was 10psi, same as at service valve

What temperature is the suction pipe next to the low pressure switch?

refcon32
28-12-2011, 06:51 PM
What temperature is the suction pipe next to the low pressure switch?

It goes to 10psi, which is round about -26 deg c, and frosting

AbsoluteWDJ
29-12-2011, 08:46 PM
How does it operate in cooling?

refcon32
29-12-2011, 09:08 PM
How does it operate in cooling?Should have said it operates longer in cooling before faulting. According to service manual flow diagrams eev1 and eev2 are not used in cooling, instead going through check valves, and eev3 should be fully open delivering liquid to hx3. So this might highlite eev3 as the problem, as it is only one used in heating and cooling. Pressures are totally different in cooling. At work tomorrow unfortunately so will do some checks and record cooling pressures.

refcon32
17-01-2012, 10:56 PM
Found the problem. Y1E expansion valve motor mechanism not working. Swaped blue and yellow wire positions on multi plug with power off, removed motor from valve body and plugged back into board and powered on. Motor should have wound back, but didnt, replaced with new motor and now working a treat.
Thanks for all responses.

Nev

AbsoluteWDJ
18-01-2012, 09:20 PM
Found the problem. Y1E expansion valve motor mechanism not working. Swaped blue and yellow wire positions on multi plug with power off, removed motor from valve body and plugged back into board and powered on. Motor should have wound back, but didnt, replaced with new motor and now working a treat.
Thanks for all responses.


Nev

All VRV/VRF can be a sod to diagnose sometimes but just shows persistance and communication pays! Well done Nev!