Roll Up! Roll Up! Buy your new R22 Equipment.

[Grizzly]

Yes that's correct.
Apparently 1 of the big 3 in America (Carrier, Trane, York.)
And the others have followed suit?
Have discovered a legal loophole regarding manufacturing R22 Equipment.

Where if you manufacture the equipment but sell it without a charge.
Then you are not doing anything illegal.

What I don't understand is that previously, units would be supplied charged with Nitrogen.
So what is the difference?
Can any of our colleagues from across the pond clarify?
Thanks Grizzly

[chemi-cool]

They can only sell it to third world countries where R-22 is still on the suplyers shelvs.

[MikeHolm]

They can only sell it to third world countries where R-22 is still on the suplyers shelvs.

Nope, I can buy it here and there are people around with supplies of R22. A lot of manufacturers are selling the equipment. The powers are trying to find a way to close the loophole but no one is trying hard.

[Grizzly]

Thanks for the update Mike.
It seems if you are big enough "Who Cares"!
Grizzly

[Brian_UK]

Thanks for the update Mike.
It seems if you are big enough "Who Cares"!
GrizzlySadly it always has been.

I was "Disgusted of Devon" the other day reading about China threatening to dump refrigerant by products to atmosphere because "The West" wouldn't pay for them to destroy it any more.

Jeez, I wish there was someone out there big enough to slap them down. ;)

[MikeHolm]

If that is true then the Chinese will come in a close 2nd to the current Canadian government for utter stupidity and a head in the sand attitude.

:off topic:The Chinese have all the western money now because we keep selling our souls buying their cheap stuff made by near unlimited supply of near slave labour in a currency discounted country.

Canada beats them only because we export asbestos (which we say is safe:rolleyes:) and we will sell our grandmama to keep the bloody tar sands producing. In the upcoming climate talks in ZA look to Canada to be the spoiler.

[desA]

In the upcoming climate talks in ZA look to Canada to be the spoiler.

Well, in ZA, R22 finally made it to the undesirables section - some 10 years after Europe. No doubt, just in time for COP17. This lot still use coal for 95% of their power stations. Their commitment to renewables seems more lip-service than anything else. As long as someone is paying the bill, or giving them cheap loans, then they appear to go with the political buzzwords of the hour.

The heat-pump market is flooded with Chinese-manufactured outcast (end of production runs) R22 underfloor heaters, posing as hot water heat-pumps. No filter driers, or sanitary-grade (vented) condensers - compressor discharge temps over design limit. Some systems using R407c & R410A - with astronomical discharge pressures towards the hot end of the hot-water cycle. Some installed systems are time-bombs waiting to go off. Some wunderkind decided to install the flexible stainless-steel condenser coil directly into the inside of the geyser. (Ever seen myth-busters & exploding hot-water geysers? SA has chlorine in municipal water supply. Stress-corrosion cracking) Up to this point, there is still no suitable local version of IEC 60335 for adequately testing air-to-water heat-pumps.

The main electricity authority is running out of electrical power, & may soon plunge SA back into continual rolling blackouts - waiting for the start-up of a few new power-stations, currently in construction - all coal-powered. This same Eskom is purporting to be the champion of alternative energy solutions. Really? Doing themselves out of business? The cost of electricity is on track for a 800-1000% increase over the time period 2008 to 2021.

The story of Africa's demise - poor governance, greed, corruption & nepotism has taken solid root under the fast imploding ANC government. This lot are worse than useless & would make Canada seem like rising stars.

COP17 delegates should have a field day.

[desA]

... double post ...

[desA]

(Struggling to edit post above):

Clarity - the Chinese seem to have begun dumping R22 underfloor heaters, previously destined for Europe, Australia etc, into South Africa. Now that R22 is a naughty word, the magic R417A is quoted - in new machines.


50% w/w 1,1,1,2-Tetrafluoroethane (R134a) {EINECS No.<br>212-377-0}/46.6% w/w Pentafluoroethane (R125) {EINECS No. 206-557-8}/3.4% w/w Butane n-<br>(R600) {F+;R12} {EINECS No. 203-448-7}

I have a concern for the 3.4% n-Butane. I wonder how many fridgies in SA know what R-417A contains?

[MikeHolm]

Des, the unfortunate situation in ZA is indeed something to worry and I am not dismissing it but if you consider that Canada supplies at least 25% of the energy to the current consumption leader to the south, AND it is coming from the the dirtiest method of producing oil AND it is poisoning what is the largest fresh water system in the world, there is more to worry about. The shear quantities are staggering.

[simon@parker]

90 percent of all the kit here is R22 have seen 4 407c units and 3 410a units the word is throw it in it dont matter if its R22 we need it who cares about the environment

[Grizzly]

Hi Simon.
An early riser i see!
Maybe thats why the negative vibes?

Ones that i agree with mind!
You are correct there is huge amounts of R22 around and still operating.
Given the number of alternative systems you say you have seen, Just what sphere do you operate in?
I mean that in a nice way!
If as I suspect you may mean that very few sites have done much about replacing their R22 systems particularly the larger systems.
Then i totally agree but as you know the "clock is ticking".

Most operators in fairness are still struggling with what to do and more importantly how to pay for it?
We as an industry are reluctant with good reason to advocate a viable alternative (covering the huge range that R22 does.)


The number of units being replaced is slowly increasing and "We" advise customers to replace as soon as possible.
But "Reasonably Practicable" has to apply.

That does not stop the responsible engineer reminding the "Customer" that they need to budget for replacement.
Because unless they expect You as the engineer (with 2079) to be personally liable.
Come sometime after Jan 2016, their R22 systems once stopped will be redundant.

What scares me more nowadays is this City Electrical attitude that they are exempt and will sell refrigerant to anyone.

May I suggest to all here that next time there is a suggestion about updating the rules.
We suggest that they enforce the ones they have first.

I am hoping that there will be an increase in work from this Phase out eventually.
But it is slow in coming.
Grizzly

[MikeHolm]

Jan 1st is the ultimate ban on R12 over here. Then 6 months to de commission or retrofit everything. INCO, for example has 100s of tonnes of the stuff. This ought to be interesting.

[install monkey]

i ordered a 25kw r407c compressor from a japanese manufacturer and was surprised when it arrived it was a r22 comp, so if theyre still manufacturing new r22 compressors then how are we meant to replace old kit!

[stufus]

:DBut Monkey your comp is just an R407C model with the wrong oil in it:rolleyes:
Cheers
Concerned Stu

[install monkey]

i specified that it was r407c and the model number stated that it was a 407c system- so now im waiting for another compressor from europe-have u noticed that im being diplomatic about the manufacturer haha

[stufus]

Your Diplomacy is duly noted..

[chemi-cool]

i ordered a 25kw r407c compressor from a japanese manufacturer and was surprised when it arrived it was a r22 comp, so if theyre still manufacturing new r22 compressors then how are we meant to replace old kit!
Compressors for R-22 and R-407C are the same, if the oil is is the right one, then you have no problems.

you can always change the oil inside the compressor/

[install monkey]

until a warranty claim arises

[mikeref]

Jan 1st is the ultimate ban on R12 over here. Then 6 months to de commission or retrofit everything. INCO, for example has 100s of tonnes of the stuff. This ought to be interesting. And i thought Australia was slow. R12 was banned last century here. R22 still has a few years but no new equipment for running on R22.

[MikeHolm]

I'm sure if our current govt had it way there would be no ban at all.

[mikeref]

until a warranty claim arises I.M. they might send you the same compressor, with a 407c sticker and synthetic oil on board this time... Then again, it might be labeled R22/R407c, as the compressors here are. Saying something similar to what Chemi said, (above)

[simon@parker]

Hi Simon.
An early riser i see!
Maybe thats why the negative vibes?

Ones that i agree with mind!
You are correct there is huge amounts of R22 around and still operating.
Given the number of alternative systems you say you have seen, Just what sphere do you operate in?
I mean that in a nice way!
If as I suspect you may mean that very few sites have done much about replacing their R22 systems particularly the larger systems.
Then i totally agree but as you know the "clock is ticking".

Most operators in fairness are still struggling with what to do and more importantly how to pay for it?
We as an industry are reluctant with good reason to advocate a viable alternative (covering the huge range that R22 does.)


The number of units being replaced is slowly increasing and "We" advise customers to replace as soon as possible.
But "Reasonably Practicable" has to apply.

That does not stop the responsible engineer reminding the "Customer" that they need to budget for replacement.
Because unless they expect You as the engineer (with 2079) to be personally liable.
Come sometime after Jan 2016, their R22 systems once stopped will be redundant.

What scares me more nowadays is this City Electrical attitude that they are exempt and will sell refrigerant to anyone.

May I suggest to all here that next time there is a suggestion about updating the rules.
We suggest that they enforce the ones they have first.

I am hoping that there will be an increase in work from this Phase out eventually.
But it is slow in coming.
Grizzly
hi Grizzly am currently in a country that shares a border with china all be it small most of the kit is chigo crap works well but its all R22 its a very very big site here we are supposed to be working to Fgas but it aint happening as we get R22 in disposeable cylinders :D lol all good here

[install monkey]

:pso can u send me some service manuals back for chigo units, also bring some of them green gas bottles back for me, paint them orange and write calor on,ta!:p

[texas64]

Yes, we can purchase these "dry" units. And it isn't limited to the big 3. Most manufacturers are producing these units and selling them with no R22 or filter/drier. But at least they have a nitrogen charge. Quite popular!

[Simeonx1]

Australia is not a third world country . we can buy everything to do with r22 . anyone need any parts ill ship it over, or would customs stop it and go omg r22 !! this is a big bust .

Australia is trying to introduce a pollution tax and all this **** . but r22 is flowing freely :S .

[SeanB]

Saw a blue light escorted truck going to COP17 from the airport on a friday evening, with 2 massive wooden crated on the back with a "LifesGood" badge on it. I think the delegates hot air was too much for the ICC cooling ( and it was the first warmish day of summer too) and 2 of the units shuffled off this mortal plane, the replacements came airfreight. Saw when I left work they were busy doing a very quick n dirty whip out and exchange there in the service area. Must have been quite a big OT bill there.