Aussi Fridgie follow up

[eskimo2]

Following on from this thread
http://www.refrigeration-engineer.com/forums/showthread.php?27519-Australian-Refrigeration-Mechanics-Obsolete

Have you aussie guys been reading or getting the CNN and following Phil Ross's articles?

His first article was about both the Electrical and Plumbing industries getting into our trade.

His last is/has been the last two issues about the idiotic electrical regs in Victoria...its only a matter of time that other states will see it too..i'm in SA and if the previuos CEO of the Office of the Technical Regulator here in Adelaide, us fridgies wouldnt be allowed near electrical...

As I said above its only a matter of time before we get turfed out of industry by plumbers and electricians....and we have ourselves to blame by not having a decent industry body to represent us..(and I dont mean a Union).

Airah is not the body either....maybe Racca could have but they didnt.

We need to act now before the national licencing comes in around 2012.

We are not being consulted but yet the government are making legislation for us ?..how...cos the electricans plumbers auto (air) industry are telling the government what we need??

If the Company you work for dont get the CNN Magazine ring Phil Ross 0292138277 and get on the subscription...they may even do it for fridgies for free..i dont know?...wont hurt to ask?

[Mick13]

i have had this conversation with numerous people numerous times and i think it is absolutely ridiculous that being fully qualified in the "refrigeration and air conditioning trade" is not enough to be able to install an air conditioner....

i find it extremely aggravating that an electrician can get a restricted installers licence and can then install domestic split systems, yet there is no restricted electrical license for us. it wouldnt need to be much, just to enable us to run cables and connect them (mains included).

it forces many people that are otherwise quite competent to do the works to do it illegally because they quite simply can not compete if they have to pay a sparkie for the works....

this is OUR trade, and i think we all want it that way

[Tesla]

Thanks for the heads up eskimo2
I see rep power for the first time in a while. I am in the process of obtaining my arctick license and find I am the only one with a compliant set of gauges that I have seen. Strange how this refrigeration is regulated but not policed. You wrote (and I don't mean union) but I think if we had our own union we could use our power to get what is just - protect our trade and prevent dodgie work from other related trades, also get our conditions back. Refrigerant licenses should not have been given to anyone but a fully qualified fridgie, some of us know more about electrical and plumbing on refrigeration systems than the plumbers and sparkies. In writing this I think it could just be another revenue collection hat for the govt. We should be registered as refrigeration trades people and only registered refrigeration trades people should be able to handle refrigerants. There should be no consideration for the domestic market for other trades! This is our livelihood and we know best when it comes to safe refrigerant handling.

[Magoo]

Hi Telsa.
Both electrical and plumbing trades here and in Australia are registered and we as a trade are not and will be pushed around because of it. From manufacturers, suppliers and installers there needs to be a huge push for our trade to be registered, for health and public safety reasons and enviromental reasons. Both NZ and Aus gov't are focusing on the carbon tax as a huge tax grab despite the actual overall effects of refrigerants on our planet. They could not give a ratz about it.
I have been harping on for years about the subject within the industry, but as usual we keep trucking along too busy to see the big picture.
Some how the public perception has to be changed from thinking that refrig techs are not just guys that fixes the domestic fridge when the beer is not cold. A full page statment a national newspaper would be a good start if I had the money to do it.
Typical, is when someone asks "what do you do for a living, ? answer I am a refrigeration engineer. reply Oh good can you look at my fridge doesnt seem to be cold enough.
Grumpy magoo

[mikeref]

Hi Magoo. Phone rings and the caller can't find an electrician to fix the coldroom. Why look for electrician i ask. Oh, Because it doesn't cool is the response. DUH! "And do you work on dishwashers as well?" NOOOO!!

[eskimo2]

hi guys
if you've been reading the recent editions of the CNN (yaffa publication that came out after they lost the printing rights to the airah mag) you would have noticed that Victorian fridgies are not licenced to fault find electrical problems on refrigeration or aircon systems ...and believe it or not never have been.

it is causing some concern at the present moment in Victoria.....but I ask...could it flow onto other states?

as i indicate above, we really do need to get our act together

[savoc]

This is a major problem in our industry that has been happening for years. The problem I believe is that are our trade is not licensed, we only have an accreditation to use refrigerants. Every man and his dog are now artick approved to install splits. Now try to get these monkeys to carry out a repairs, they wouldn’t have a clue. We as refrigeration mechanics need a government body like the plumbers and electricians have. It should be law to fill out a c.o.c on completion of every job we carry out with random government inspections. I have been a tech for 15 years and some monkey can get a licence in 6 months to install splits. Now these guys are trying to do everything like install freezer and cool rooms no one is checking up on anything. Artick is the biggest waste of money we spend. Do they ever go to sites to check up on workmanship? All they do is busted our nuts to come check our vans to see if ours vac pumps have had a oil change. Our industry has real no Australian standards like the sparky’s have the Australian wiring rules to guide to, we need the same. I have seen so many incorrect install that these people should have been locked up. We need a proper licensing body, minimum 4 years on the job trading and proper rules to follow such as correct piping and wiring. Now a new house can not be powered up until the inspector has signed and check it. We need something similar. If you have done every right then there is no need to worry about an inspections.

[assailant]

i did read the article in the recent cnn mag about victorian fridgies.

unlike you easties, in the west we have a designated restricted electrical licence for refrigeration and a/c techs. while it does not allow you to install new subcircuits, it does allow you to work from the isolator onwards and fault find/replace like for like.

sparkie bashing is a favoured past time of fridgies, but the reality is that there are equal proportions of dodgy fridgies out there too.
as a sparkie with a split install licence i have seen some woeful installation practices by fridgies. i mean for guys who rely on that ticket for a living, you would think they could do half decent flares or use nitrogen when welding or debur their pipe. basic, basic stuff.

granted, some sparkies are terrible installers (let alone repair techs), but some fridgies havent a clue either, which is probably scarier.

i agree with the sentiment towards arctick though, its a lot of money for very little enforcement (a lot like telecoms registration in this country. there are rules but i have never once seen work inspected).
the electrical industry in wa is far more rigorous however, and inspections and compliance is a greater priority than refrig or comms.

[paul_h]

Sparkie bashing is normally only done by me, 112345 :D
Had to do a rooftop compressor change today, yet another clipsal WS226 type switch which had seized due to start up current. About 20 a/cs on the roof, all with the same switches, probably all stuffed. Kind of a big deal when you are on a 2nd storey roof with difficult access and all the switches are cheap arse, not fit for purpose ones.

Many sparkies have no clue if they use those switches on a/cs... How can anyone call themselves and electrician if they are fitted 15A ws226 type switches on a 13A FLA a/c, have they never heard of in rush current?
One sparky I used for a fujitsu asta09lcc cut the GPO plug off, then decided since that was 1.5mm wiring, that's all he needed to know running a fixed circuit to the switchboard. No consideration of distance, just if that flex is 1.5mm, that's all they needed to use no matter what. I wish that thought like that when looking at a 2.5hp unit that has 4mm to the compressor, seems like it doesn't work that way. They just use 2.5mm no matter how long the wiring run...

;)

Also pissed off that me previous good sparkie has gone cheap arse, $259 for a split system circuit (was $220 with isolator before), and yes, now he's like the other usless sparkies, refusing to fit an isolator for that $259 price.

But I know you're cool, it's just that I just spent 4 hrs on a 2 storey roof top, and many multiple trips up and down just because of a ****ty isolator that sparkies thing is good enough when it's not.
I suppose I can be happy at least that they went to the trouble of fitting a ****ty switch that may have worked for 5 years I guess, because no sparkie in australia seems to fit isolators at all anymore. edit: Unless local connect and they have too that is. Is it too much to ask for a circuit breaker and a isolator!?

No offence, and I know you put up with my rants, but I think the average sparkie in standard domestic/commercial stuff know the regs, but doesn't think about motors a hell of a lot, just c/b rcd and total current etc.
But the current trend of no isolators, or under sized ones, is something they are doing by choice and is pissing me off if you couldn't tell :D

[assailant]

actually, i reckon ill get on that runaway bandwagon you are clinging onto.

not putting an isolator on any aircon is tantamount to not wiping as far as im concerned.

i reckon it should be illegal, but i cant seem to find anywhere in my AS3000 that suggests that it is unfortunately :(

its a dog act because it makes everyone who comes later job harder. the service guy replacing a board or fuse or thermistor or crumpet or whatever.. or the guy who wants to pump down the unit at end of life to remove and replace it.

i have standardised my stock on hand for isolators for wall split installs - i only install ws226/20's.

20A mech i never have to worry about any split, 8kw splits pulling 13A FL.

and you are absolutely right, the average sparkie doesnt know sweet jack all apart from power points.

interesting the prices you are being charged by your sparkie. $259 for a 2.5mm² circuit with no isolator? inc gst i presume?
we usually allow ~$250 for a circuit and isolator for a ducted unit (6mm² and WHB140).. might have to put our prices up.

[750 Valve]

The ARC has a lot to answer for - they are the clowns who pushed a cert 2 in split system installation course which is basically directed at sparkies! I remember going the the meetings prior to the introduction and most were pushing for all splits to come nitrogen charged, that way you would need a bit more smarts than a knuckle dragging house wiring sparky to install and commission. It fell on deaf ears.

[750 Valve]

our industry has real no australian standards like the sparky’s have the australian wiring rules to guide to, we need the same.

... As 1677

[AUScooler:-)]

The ARC has a lot to answer for - they are the clowns who pushed a cert 2 in split system installation course which is basically directed at sparkies! I remember going the the meetings prior to the introduction and most were pushing for all splits to come nitrogen charged, that way you would need a bit more smarts than a knuckle dragging house wiring sparky to install and commission. It fell on deaf ears.

The ARC take our license money, it financially supports their staff to attend events such as the AAA ( Australian automotive aftermarket ) expo, where they inform spray painters etc, that they can be fully qualified to work on auto A/C by doing the short course.

The same thing happens at the ARBS expo, when electricians and plumbers visit their stand.

The ARC board members pushed and introduced short courses and today they sell short courses like used car salesmen.

Also the ARC extend the scope of the licenses every few years, for example sparkies can now install pool heat pumps, they do this so the short course sells better.

[AUScooler:-)]

We need to act now before the national licencing comes in around 2012.

We are not being consulted but yet the government are making legislation for us ?..how...cos the electricans plumbers auto (air) industry are telling the government what we need??



I was issued a license by a state government of Australia in the year of 2001 that allowed me to carry out Automotive air conditioning work that contained R12 and R134a.

In 2004 the ARC, (a national licensing system) took all powers off state governments and announced that a refrigeration apprenticeship was not a good enough qualification to work on auto A/C.

I rang the ARC to complain, they told me if I was caught working on Auto A/C I would be fined and my license would be suspended even though, I had been licensed under state govenment legislation for many years. They refused to accept my old state license as a qualification.

My employer had to pay for a certificate 2 course that cost over $800 so I could continue doing auto A/C in the same state that I had worked in for many years.

I still have my old state license that was singed and issued by the delegate of, director of environmental managment in my state.

[paul_h]

I was issued a license by a state government of Australia in the year of 2001 that allowed me to carry out Automotive air conditioning work that contained R12 and R134a.

In 2004 the ARC, (a national licensing system) took all powers off state governments and announced that a refrigeration apprenticeship was not a good enough qualification to work on auto A/C.

I rang the ARC to complain, they told me if I was caught working on Auto A/C I would be fined and my license would be suspended even though, I had been licensed under state govenment legislation for many years. They refused to accept my old state license as a qualification.

My employer had to pay for a certificate 2 course that cost over $800 so I could continue doing auto A/C in the same state that I had worked in for many years.

I still have my old state license that was singed and issued by the delegate of, director of environmental managment in my state.
You did the course?

We all said here 'like ****, be damned if it's illegal to repair my own car's a/c'. We all just sent the extra money required for the auto licence. It came back without the auto licence for all of us so we just kept complaining until they gave as the 'qualification' that we already had with the state system.
I'm a bit of a home mechanic and know everything under a car's bonnet anyway, and did a fair bit of mobile equipment at the time, like cranes, tractors and light aircraft.
I'm not going to do a course run by an industry body that accepts leaks and the fact that 'top ups' are required and the first step of leak repair is to recharge and add dye so they might find the leak next time!

edit:


interesting the prices you are being charged by your sparkie. $259 for a 2.5mm² circuit with no isolator? inc gst i presume?
we usually allow ~$250 for a circuit and isolator for a ducted unit (6mm² and WHB140).. might have to put our prices up.
Well his prices aren't doing me any favours, pricing me out of a job mostly. If someone calls up and wants an install for an a/c they have already bought, I just plain can't be bothered quoting, it's going to be non competitive due to the electricians charge when I pay extra for an isolator on top of that $259 inc GST. He also charges extra for cutting the tin out in the meterbox or he has to move stuff around to make it fit.
No point me even quoting unless I supply as well as install, then I can make some money off the unit and keep install price decent.
But suits me as install is not my game anyway, repair is. So I wouldn't price like that electrician if you wanted to actually get a lot of install work. But what's my choice, most other sparkies I've tried aren't very good, and this sparkie will forward on any a/c repair work to me they come across.

edit: And the other thing that gets me is I bet that when an electrician does get an install licence, I bet they won't price the electrical side so highly to price themselves out of a job... Until then, not their problem, and there's nothing I can do about it with the electrical laws here.
Really, if I wanted to a/c, refrigeration is the wrong trade in australia to have, better off being an electrician or auto mechanic if you want to make money in air con in Australia.
But then again I don't think I want to do a/c much more anyway, sick of the two storey wall mounted condensers.
Australia is like this for a/c, so I'm trapped, if I do repair only, and not install (cause I'm not an electrician and they price me out of being competitive), then I get called to repair a/c's installed by others like this:
http://i.imgur.com/eFB2X.png

[assailant]

<edit to my previous post that it wouldnt let me edit> i only use wha120's for all wall splits (not ws226's)

i think you are right.. you definitely need to have an electrical contractor's licence.. we could sign you up for an apprenticeship if you took a job with us? ;)

weve actually just started the 457 process, importing a pommy bloke. with any luck he will be decent AND stick around.

what you need to do is get out of the city. get away from those mcmansions, out of the rat race into a friendly atmosphere where its not so cut throat and not everyone is a pirate.

ive got a crane lifting a 40kw vrf outdoor unit onto a roof a stone's throw from the beach tomorrow morning.. id take a photo to try and capture the serenity for you, but i dropped my beautiful phone 3m onto concrete on friday whilst installing an actron srv190e in a new house (also overlooking the ocean).. *sigh*