My number 1 problem - Joining Refrigerant Copper Tubes

[Kompulsa]

Hello.

Is there any way to join copper refrigerant tubes to each other without compression fittings nor using a torch?

[Kompulsa]

I have tried so many things and failed such as JB STIK epoxy putty (the best results, but it didn't work for the condenser side), Permatex epoxy, Mack Chem epoxy, compression fittings with gasket maker, and my propane torch is not hot enough. Everything breaks or leaks. I need a solution now, and am out of money. I have had this problem since last year.

[Grizzly]

Erm!
Kompulsa.
Are these questions serious or are you having a wind-up?
What do you actually do for a living?
Grizzly

[paul_h]

Propane isn't hot enough for brazing.

If you don't want to pay for oxygen cylinders, try a mapp gas torch (good for 1/2" copper tubing and smaller, but takes ages to apply heat, heat is everywhere and not localised) But at least it's a single gas disposable cylinder

Best to get oxygen and acetylene for large jobs, but if you don't want/can't get acetylene, use BBQ gas propane tanks and an oxy cylinder (hired) on a proper LPG/Oxy mixer manifold hose set and regulators, that's what plumbers use here instead of acetylene.

If you don't want to hire anything, you can get disposable oxygen and mapp gas systems/manifolds. Only 20min worth of brazing out of a $60 oxy cylinder though as there's not much in them, so only worth it if you need to braze very rarely, or willing to pay for the convenience and small weight when carrying stuff up a ladder.

FFS pick one of them at least and stop doing the dodgey, no matter what your real day job is.

[Kompulsa]

Erm!
Kompulsa.
Are these questions serious or are you having a wind-up?
What do you actually do for a living?
Grizzly

Yes, they are serious, I am just very interested in this and need professional help with certain things.

I am unemployed, and I am just learning how to work with air conditioners and refrigerators.

[Kompulsa]

Propane isn't hot enough for brazing.

If you don't want to pay for oxygen cylinders, try a mapp gas torch (good for 1/2" copper tubing and smaller, but takes ages to apply heat, heat is everywhere and not localised) But at least it's a single gas disposable cylinder

Best to get oxygen and acetylene for large jobs, but if you don't want/can't get acetylene, use BBQ gas propane tanks and an oxy cylinder (hired) on a proper LPG/Oxy mixer manifold hose set and regulators, that's what plumbers use here instead of acetylene.

If you don't want to hire anything, you can get disposable oxygen and mapp gas systems/manifolds. Only 20min worth of brazing out of a $60 oxy cylinder though as there's not much in them, so only worth it if you need to braze very rarely, or willing to pay for the convenience and small weight when carrying stuff up a ladder.

FFS pick one of them at least and stop doing the dodgey, no matter what your real day job is.

I am using a MAPP gas cylinder. I am not doing anything larger than 1/2 inch anyway.

I asked for something that does not involve brazing. I was hoping that one of you would know of an adhesive that could work. I would very greatly appreciate it.

[paul_h]

You said you used propane before and it wasn't hot enough.
If you are using a MAPP torch with tubing under 1/2", it will work. It's cheap, proven, reliable, quick. Probably more so than any 'no brazing' solution, including cheaper, which is why brazing is the industry standard.
If it's not working for you, either get a better torch for your MAPP gas, or learn proper techniques.
Brazing is the best solution, proven, it works, no problems if done right and you won't be out of money from so many leaks in the future if you learn to use a brazing technique and have the right gear for the individual needs (ie need hotter torch for some applications, different silver content for rods, cleaning the copper with emery cloth, using flux if needed, can braze any copper joint like this, or with steel, brass etc, anything except aluminium.

Seriously, not flaming you, tried to tell you the options for brazing, but if you are gong to change your story (propane magically turned into mapp gas), well then waste your money and go more broke in buying expensive chemical adhesives that aren't reliable for all I care.

Plumbers here that install a/cs always cut off tails and braze the indoor piping, because they know they suck at flares, yet brazing is so cheap easy and reliable...

[texas64]

Here in the USA, they make a double barreled torch tip for propane/MAPP gas disposable cylinders which is hot enough to braze copper.

http://www.google.com/products/catalog?rlz=1C1CHKZ_enUS435US435&q=double+barrel+torch&safe=active&um=1&ie=UTF-8&tbm=shop&cid=7249182214769572974&sa=X&ei=LGqhTqPEAdGfsQL37-TBBQ&ved=0CC8Q8wIwAg

[Kompulsa]

You said you used propane before and it wasn't hot enough.
If you are using a MAPP torch with tubing under 1/2", it will work. It's cheap, proven, reliable, quick. Probably more so than any 'no brazing' solution, including cheaper, which is why brazing is the industry standard.
If it's not working for you, either get a better torch for your MAPP gas, or learn proper techniques.
Brazing is the best solution, proven, it works, no problems if done right and you won't be out of money from so many leaks in the future if you learn to use a brazing technique and have the right gear for the individual needs (ie need hotter torch for some applications, different silver content for rods, cleaning the copper with emery cloth, using flux if needed, can braze any copper joint like this, or with steel, brass etc, anything except aluminium.

Seriously, not flaming you, tried to tell you the options for brazing, but if you are gong to change your story (propane magically turned into mapp gas), well then waste your money and go more broke in buying expensive chemical adhesives that aren't reliable for all I care.

I did not change the story, I said that a propane _torch_ is what I tried on a MAPP gas cylinder and it wasn't quite hot enough to melt the brazing alloy, which is why I wanted to find an alternative that didn't enough spending thousands on a second torch. I never used pure propane for this. I was looking for an alternative to brazing, but I give up now because there apparently isn't anything. I am going to have to scrape up thousands of dollars and buy a local torch then.

[paul_h]

A proper torch for mapp gas maybe is $150. Yes the torch matters as much as the gas cylinder it's attached to.

I got one of these; http://www.bernzomatic.com/products/torches/professional-torches.aspx One of the plain, cheaper, older design torches for like I said, around $150

edit: Looks simialr to this: http://www.bernzomatic.com/PRODUCTS/TORCHES/PROFESSIONALTORCHES/tabid/230/ctl/Detail/mid/1009/xmid/6943/xmfid/3/Default.aspx

Get one of them, and for under 1/2" tubing, it's quick (no waiting for adhesives to cure) and cheap (mapp gas lasts for ages, do the job right, no leaks guaranteed, silver solder is cheaper than adhesives and lasts for ever stored)

[chillerman2006]

I am going to have to scrape up thousands of dollars and buy a torch then.

Kompulsa

try here for a torch http://www.ebay.com/sch/i.html?_nkw=turbo+torch&_sacat=0&_odkw=rothenberger+torch&_osacat=0&_trksid=p3286.c0.m270.l1311

@Paul, just checked mate & $1000jmd is $11.32aud..... had me wondering at first

R's chillerman

[Makanic]

A proper torch for mapp gas maybe is $150. Yes the torch matters as much as the gas cylinder it's attached to.

I got one of these; http://www.bernzomatic.com/products/torches/professional-torches.aspx One of the plain, cheaper, older design torches for like I said, around $150

edit: Looks simialr to this: http://www.bernzomatic.com/PRODUCTS/TORCHES/PROFESSIONALTORCHES/tabid/230/ctl/Detail/mid/1009/xmid/6943/xmfid/3/Default.aspx

Get one of them, and for under 1/2" tubing, it's quick (no waiting for adhesives to cure) and cheap (mapp gas lasts for ages, do the job right, no leaks guaranteed, silver solder is cheaper than adhesives and lasts for ever stored)

With Larger pipes & a extra hand (person) if you have one 2 torches work well too :>)

[paul_h]

Some of those 'turbo torches' on that ebay link look like propane torches though, and would be useless.
Theres a couple of bernzomatic torches there for ~$50 that would do the job like this one http://www.ebay.com/itm/BERNZOMATIC-TS7000-TURBO-TORCH-MAPP-PROPANE-BRAZING-/180740800330?pt=BI_Welding_Supplies&hash=item2a14fdbf4a
But like many of us not in the USA looking at eye candy on ebay (for me it was vintage shaving razors), they only ship to the USA...

[paul_h]

Holy flap, it's makanic!

[Mick13]

cant go past the superfire 3 :)

[Gideon Beddows]

i use a McDonalds Apple pie,

Be careful not to get the tube too near the filling or you will burn a hole in the pipe

hope that helps?

[install monkey]

http://www.vulkan.com/en/vulkan_lokring.htm

[chillerman2006]

if not sweating a joint, would have to be swagelok

you can even assemble/dissassemble 25 times if correctly put together using the gauge tool

http://www.swagelok.com/downloads/webcatalogs/EN/MS-13-151.pdf

R's chillerman

[monkey spanners]

i use a McDonalds Apple pie,

Be careful not to get the tube too near the filling or you will burn a hole in the pipe

hope that helps?

One of the problems with this method is ants, they can eat away at the jointing material.

[Gideon Beddows]

i use a McDonalds Apple pie,

Be careful not to get the tube too near the filling or you will burn a hole in the pipe

hope that helps?

My secret Facebook group status has been revoked allready?

:( sad face

[MikeHolm]

Don't worry, I can't figure out how to use mine anyway.....so you are not alone

[frank]

My secret Facebook group status has been revoked allready?

:( sad face
Maybe it's not so secret now anyway :D
What's this secret stuff anyway? - it doesn't show up under Mod Privileges :eek:

[james10]

i use a McDonalds Apple pie,

Be careful not to get the tube too near the filling or you will burn a hole in the pipe

hope that helps?
Thats some hot filling in them pies, taste alot better that copper tech too mmmmmm

[a/c.nick]

vulkan is an alternative very costly one tho.
charge it to the job lol..

[MikeHolm]

Maybe it's not so secret now anyway :D
What's this secret stuff anyway? - it doesn't show up under Mod Privileges :eek:

We have a secret handshake too...:D

[paul_h]

My secret Facebook group status has been revoked allready?

:( sad face Aahh, you want the other secret group that don't muck you about instead. I've missed you even though I was hoping you were welsh :)

@ Frank, nothing secret about it, just getting general chit chat crap off this site.
Edit: Plus facebook loads faster LOL

[still learning]

kompulsa, good day to you , the best way foreword is to use the correct tools for the job.
i know its hard when you are starting out , with no money.
i well rember the days when myself and a mate borrowed the money( from a reletive ) to buy a commpressor , to spray cars .
we were around your age too.
you sound very keen to get on in this job and good luck to you .
the correct tools for the job make all the difference , faith in you kit and following correct procedures will take you far and give you happy customers with no leaks and coll a/c and good fridges .
good luck.
shame i have no time for holidays , would put some working brazing gear in my suitcase ( less bottles) and come to jamacia .

[Gideon Beddows]

the first rule of fight club........

[Kompulsa]

Thank you all for your advice. I found a way to get some money and am finally purchasing a torch tomorrow. :)

[stufus]

Hallelujah
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WJTiXoMCppw
C (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WJTiXoMCppw)heers
Stu

[Kompulsa]

I like that song, but not that version.

[install monkey]

try this
http://youtu.be/1HX6ahDqoY4

[texas64]

I have seen this being offered at the local Trane supplier. I don't know anyone who has used it, but very interesting product. I did a leak repair on a suction service valve on a Copeland condenser skid, where the original installer used what appeared as epoxy or maybe it was this product or something similar. I suspect since he knew that the brazing with 15% silphos or lower wasn't going to join together correctly, he glued them together. The end result was a total loss of charge. I had to clean the surfaces well and joined with flux coated 56% sil phos rods.

[Kompulsa]

I have seen this being offered at the local Trane supplier. I don't know anyone who has used it, but very interesting product. I did a leak repair on a suction service valve on a Copeland condenser skid, where the original installer used what appeared as epoxy or maybe it was this product or something similar. I suspect since he knew that the brazing with 15% silphos or lower wasn't going to join together correctly, he glued them together. The end result was a total loss of charge. I had to clean the surfaces well and joined with flux coated 56% sil phos rods.

hmm, the strength claims of Just For Copper are very high.

I wouldn't mind trying that one day.

[texas64]

It would appear that some mechanical type of joining system like vulcan or some type of compression or threading or brazing/soldering are the tried and true methods. But gluing like what is done with pvc where you change the molecular bonds of the material would be a nice alternative to brazing, but gluing just seems scary especially when we are considering high temp, high system pressures! The other side is the liability that one has when a system is installed. Could you sleep at night knowing everything was glued together?! I would need to see it working for a few years and hear some testimonials on the good and the bad of these products.

[Kompulsa]

It would appear that some mechanical type of joining system like vulcan or some type of compression or threading or brazing/soldering are the tried and true methods. But gluing like what is done with pvc where you change the molecular bonds of the material would be a nice alternative to brazing, but gluing just seems scary especially when we are considering high temp, high system pressures! The other side is the liability that one has when a system is installed. Could you sleep at night knowing everything was glued together?! I would need to see it working for a few years and hear some testimonials on the good and the bad of these products.

I agree. I would experiment with it on my own projects first.

[Brian_UK]

try this
http://youtu.be/1HX6ahDqoY4
It has a maximum temperature range of 120°C and this warning about the use that we would be interested in...

Question:
Can JUST-FOR-COPPER™ be used in the manufacturing of air conditioners?
Answer:
Yes, except for industrial air conditioners that use oils formulated with Methacrylate. Some industrial air conditioners use oils formulated with Methacrylate to support temperatures down to – 54 degrees centigrade. At - 54 degrees centigrade, JUST-FOR-COPPER™ becomes solid and can crack and leak.
JUST-FOR-COPPER™ can be used in the installation, and in the construction of home and office air conditioners that do not use oils formulated with Methacrylate

[texas64]

Funny, the system I mentioned above was a walk in freezer...I vote 'Ney' on glued joints, anyone else? lol