tech method

[bilmul]

does anybody know anything about the "tech method" school of fault diagnosis? judging from some of the posts i have read, gary and webram seem to know a lot about our industry. can anybody give examples of how their fault finding methods work before i buy into it?:confused:

[botrous]

So Marc , I understand that you support thech method fault diagnoses method ????

[rbartlett]

So Marc , I understand that you support thech method fault diagnoses method ????


at one time Marc was the UK Representative for Gary's TECH method . I personally haven't seen them (there is a copy floating round here somewhere) but marc rates it so I guess it's worth it..

cheers

richard

[US Iceman]

Perhaps Gary could provide an example of the "Tech Method" for all of us to review?

Thanks.

[Latte]

does anybody know anything about the "tech method" school of fault diagnosis? judging from some of the posts i have read, gary and webram seem to know a lot about our industry. can anybody give examples of how their fault finding methods work before i buy into it?:confused:

Garys website should be www.techmethod.com
It may have examples on there. I havn't seen Gary online recently anyone heard from him. It looks like Prof Sporlan hasn't been on for months either, anyone know where he is hiding.

Regards

Fatboy

[eggs]

I bought it, read it from cover to cover.
I think everybody should have a copy.
It has paid for itself many times over.
Get your wallet out and spend some money:p

cheers

eggs

[bilmul]

a couple of examples would be helpful. i'm not asking for the full text you understan, just an evaluation to help me decide whether or not to purchase.
eggs how did you do that?

[bilmul]

add to previous:i'm not a nervous engineer i am considered to be a reasonably competant engineer but a bit more understanding never hurt anybody and helps to teach others to improve the level of service we all provide

[chemi-cool]

Hi bilmul.
Please send me an email or a PM.
Thanks.

Chemi

[Peter_1]

I've seen and read in it and I also posted some comments in the past about it.
I'm not fond of the used method but I can imagine that some are helped by this unusual method.

[Gary]

Not everyone is impressed by the TECH Method, but almost everyone. :)

As an example, let's suppose you find the superheat high at your TXV bulb. You then have to ask yourself if liquid is being delivered to the TXV inlet. You might conclude that this should have been determined prior to checking the superheat, and many other things checked prior to that.

The point is there is a sequence to trouble shooting which makes it all much clearer and easier. First check A, then check B, then check C, etc., as opposed to starting at C.

Sequential trouble shooting is indeed an unusual approach, and possibly not for everyone. Some people are proficient at looking at everything at once, taking it all in, and making the right call. The rest of us find it helpful to work with a step by step sequence.

The TECH Method is, as far as I know, the most efficient sequence.

T = Temperature controls, then
E = Evaporating unit, then
C = Condensing unit, then
H = Heat measurements

If the first thing you do is slap your gauges on the machine, you are starting at H, and quite possibly missing the real problem(s).

[Sipho]

As an example, let's suppose you find the superheat high at your TXV bulb. You then have to ask yourself if liquid is being delivered to the TXV inlet.

Setting TEV superheat properly is itself a procedure requiring method as in a process of elimination:

For example...

1) Stabilise compressor/evaporator capacity.
2) Stabilise head pressure.
3) Stabilise liquid quality.
4) Establish design pre-TEV liquid pressure and temperature (subcool).
5) Confirm evenness of stabilised evaporator load.
6) Check/Set Superheat.
7) Does superheat setting provide hunt-free operation at lowest load?

[Gary]

By the time you get to number 5 in your list, you most likely have found and fixed the real problem, and have determined that the superheat doesn't need to be adjusted.

[US Iceman]

If the first thing you do is slap your gauges on the machine...

I would agree that there are things that should be checked in some sort of an order. As in easy things... power availability, temperature control calling for cooling, safeties tripped, etc.

If the unit is operating, although possibly marginally, pressure gauges are the only way to get good information as a first step. You could make an argument that pressure gauges are not the first thing to "slap on", but...

They should be the first thing you check after the easy stuff. The gauges should be (in my opinion) the first step in solving the problem.

Once you see the pressure gauges and the readings, your experience in system analysis and understanding of operation begins to direct you to the perceived problem.

At this time you can begin to evaluate the temperature and pressure relationship to fully determine the exact nature of the problem.

It sounds like the professed method helps to teach troubleshooting. I'm all for that.

But I believe there is an analogy we could present here. We learn math to add, divide, subtract, etc.. Learning math without knowing how to apply it is similar to what I think we are talking about with the method under discussion.

Refrigeration system analysis is the application of the fundamental principles (similar to the math analogy above). If you do not understand the fundamentals, the person doing analysis will not be able to find the problem.

Is there only one way? No, I don't think so.

A lot of this is experience driven. Someone who has done a lot of service will have a reasonable idea of what to check and how.

Another person may be new (but recently trained in school). This person will have more trouble since their experience is limited. This is where a mentor comes in. Someone to talk to about the problem.

The method described could be a good way for a new person to develop his (or her, for the politically correct crowd) skills.

However, anyone performing analysis should be able to apply the fundamentals to any application. A little knowledge can be dangerous and there already too many people working on refrigeration systems who do not understand what they are doing.

The same can be said for engineers. As someone said in a previous thread, just because you may have a professional engineering license, does not make you qualified to design a system.

In my mind, the best method to use is learning the relationships between the pressure & temperature of the refrigerant. The use of Mollier charts is also just as useful as the pressure temperature charts.

And... how this can be seen in actual operation. The implications of certain deviations between observed and implied data can be make all of the difference.

I would like to see a more complete discussion and an example to fully form an opinion on the tech method.

[Abe]

As an aside..........

Nice to see you again Gary

Where have you been???
:) :)

[Abe]

Most engineers or techs...............are so well seasoned and trained.........that at a glance they figure out power is there and the system is running.........albeit poorly

Thats why hooking up gauges is so important....
It lets you see inside the system pretty rapidly

Bit like a doctor with a stethescope

And did you know guys.................Fridge techs and Doctors are almost the same......

We all get called out at weird times and we got to get their fast and perform vital surgery......

If only they had a National Fridge Service in the UK, like the National Health.......

We would all be raking it in!!!

Marc I know would be a top Consultant surgeon of fridges........

Frank some big adminestrator...........

Me.........as usual................wheeling the flaming trolleys..........and emptying the bed pans!!!!

[Gary]

I would agree that there are things that should be checked in some sort of an order. As in easy things... power availability, temperature control calling for cooling, safeties tripped, etc.

If the unit is operating, although possibly marginally, pressure gauges are the only way to get good information as a first step. You could make an argument that pressure gauges are not the first thing to "slap on", but...

They should be the first thing you check after the easy stuff. The gauges should be (in my opinion) the first step in solving the problem.


Correct me if I am wrong, but you appear to be saying that the "easy stuff" is the first step, not the gauges, and indeed it is. Given the proper sequence, it's all easy stuff, including the gauges.

Perhaps we are not disagreeing at all.

[Gary]

As an aside..........

Nice to see you again Gary

Where have you been???
:) :)


Hi Aiyub,

Dan keeps me busy. :)

[Peter_1]

The TECH Method is, as far as I know, the most efficient sequence.

I always feel uncomfortable if someone says from his self that he's good, the best, the most efficient,...
This can never be an objective meaning.

[Gary]

I always feel uncomfortable if someone says from his self that he's good, the best, the most efficient,...
This can never be an objective meaning.


Hence the qualifier "as far as I know". There may in fact be a more efficient sequence, but I haven't found it, and have invested an enormous amount of research in the effort.

It takes ego to challenge the status quo. Where there is innovation, there is ego. Whatever you may think of the TECH Method, I think you would agree that it is not the same old stuff.

[US Iceman]

Hi Gary,

We could indeed be saying the same thing. I guess I have never sat down to write the steps of analysis. After you have done this for awhile, it gets to be habit and you do things without conscious thought.

My idea of starting at a beginning may have only superseded some the steps you might describe. Obviously, we have to start somewhere so in effect what you may be saying could be similar to my thought process.

Since I have not read your book, I cannot comment further on the content or methodology. I know what works for me.

As I said in the previous post, the way I approach analysis is to sort the system out. Start simple, and dig in.

[Peter_1]

US Iceman I totaly agree with you
See http://www.refrigeration-engineer.com/forums/showthread.php?t=2941 post 12

[Gary]

I am not here to fight with anyone, particularly if it comes down to shortfalls in my personality. It is what it is. I am not good at humble, and that is unlikely to change.

You might find the following link interesting, as it for better or worse describes my personality type pretty well.

http://www.geocities.com/lifexplore/intj.htm

For those who may want to check out their own personality type, here is an online test:

http://www.humanmetrics.com/cgi-win/JTypes2.asp

[chemi-cool]

Here we go again;)

I'm sure Marc and you can discuss it for a long many posts.
have fun.

Chemi:)

[bilmul]

ok thanks a lot guys for the discussion, its time to dig into the wallet for another tool for my box.
gary hope to contact you soon

[eggs]

you will not regret it ;)

cheers

eggs

[frank]

My link to the TECH Method web site shows it to have been HACKED by someone against Terror :eek:

Anyone else notice this?

[eggs]

yes Frank, i just checked. The scumbags have hacked it :eek:

cheers

eggs

[Abe]

I clicked on the link and it was fine

https://www.merchantamerica.com/tmethod/

[frank]

Hi Abe

Follow the link at the bottom of the page you posted (forums) and you will see what I mean :eek:

[frank]

BTW, rbartlett installed the ac for fasthosts back with the first company he owned/started.
Was it Hitachi or Daikin ? :D

[Abe]

Was it Hitachi or Daikin ? :D


Oh my Gawd..............!!

Not again?? Do you have to light the fuse Frank???

[frank]

Dichotomy

- die-kot-a-mee-
division into two opposed groups or parts


As I said - was it Hitachi or Daikin? :D

[rbartlett]

Fujitsu as I seem to remember...

cheers

richard

[frank]

I don't have the ftp details here at home to access techmethod.com so it'll only be tomorrow evening when I learn what, if anything, has been damaged.
Any ideas yet Marc? Could the same happen to this forum?

[Gary]

Damned hackers completely destroyed the forum. Marc managed to get a bare bones version back up and running, but all of the previous data was totally corrupted. Thanks for getting it back running, Marc.

Fortunately the product section survived, since it resides on a secure server at merchantamerica.com, so I am still in business.

[Peter_1]

But frank only gave ...
We learned that a name must begin with a capital letter, so Frank instead of frank.:p :D

[lana]

I have not read the "Tech method" but I use the method described in KOTZA book which is very simple and applicable.
There are 8 different families of refrigeration faults in the system and you can diagnose the system with four measurments:
LP, HP, Superheat, subcooling.
It is that simple.
Cheers.

[Abe]

We learned that a name must begin with a capital letter, so Frank instead of frank.:p :D


You are right..............A name is a Proper Noun and must be capitalised....

It also acknowledges stature and respect to our fellow member Frank......

Marc is a genius no doubt................but a duff on nouns!!!!!!!

:D :D :D

[Brian_UK]

You are right..............A name is a Proper Noun and must be capitalised....

It also acknowledges stature and respect to our fellow member Frank......

Marc is a genius no doubt................but a duff on nouns!!!!!!!

:D :D :DUnfortunately our fellow member mentioned above does not,in fact, use a capital letter himself.

This makes it difficult to be grammatically correct without possibly causing offence.:rolleyes:

Or, it could be that Frank simply missed the Caps key when he first signed in. :eek: :D

[frank]

Or, it could be that Frank simply missed the Caps key when he first signed in.
Must have signed in after the pub then Brian :D :D