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View Full Version : Alternative to R600a ?



Grizzly
05-10-2011, 07:58 PM
Hi Guys,

You may remember a few weeks back I asked for advice regarding my brother in laws Fridge Freezer.
I am due to go to his house this weekend to look at it. Anyway I have just phoned them to confirm what refrigerant is supposed to be in it?

Answer 88g of R600a.... mutter mutter!

Is there an alternative (R134a maybe?)
Only I don't have access to R600a!
Can anyone offer any advice?
Thanks Grizzly

chillerman2006
05-10-2011, 08:06 PM
Hi Grizzly

R134a as you suggested - maybe

heres some figures/pressures

R's chillerman

monkey spanners
05-10-2011, 08:19 PM
FSW do it in 1kg ish sized bottles, doubt they know you need a ticket to buy it....

Might need a special tap too.

Grizzly
05-10-2011, 08:40 PM
Cool! Chillerman.

MS. I might need a special hammer, who knows?
I don't suppose either of you, or anyone else?

Would have a clue regarding charge amounts when retro-fitting R134a.

As indicated the R600a charge is 88g.

Thanks Grizzly

install monkey
05-10-2011, 08:43 PM
grizzly- to charge 88 grm into a domestic using weighing scales is a pig- i tried gassing a domestic with a 1 kg r600 bottle and the weight of the gauge line affects the weight- ur gauge line holds around 100grm(72 inch one) as a guide
i did complete the task and its been working ok 3 yrs ago, good luck and keep the doors open -good ventilation is essential!!!

chillerman2006
05-10-2011, 09:09 PM
Cool! Chillerman.

MS. I might need a special hammer, who knows?
I don't suppose either of you, or anyone else?

Would have a clue regarding charge amounts when retro-fitting R134a.

As indicated the R600a charge is 88g.

Thanks Grizzly

Hi Grizzly

R600 is approx 45% of weight hcfc per mass

will email you the booklet, as theres a bit I just noticed saying

''the cooling capacity of R600 is about half that of R134a. To acheive that a compressor of twice the displacement is required for R134a''

My thoughts of this statement is that compressor will be 2 x to big for condensor/evaporator on R134a

.............................................................................

If your gonna try it anyway

Just a clue mate - plenty of strong coffee and a couple of valium

as install said no scales

charge to condensor outlet de-superheated to saturated

then a smidgen at a time to your suction superheat + normally overcharge pull it out and try again and again and again

eventually get there mate, but its a bi*ch ....... I hate domestics more than her headaches

thinking about it though, our man Tonto .... must have a method

R's chillerman

install monkey
05-10-2011, 09:13 PM
them glass charging stihls dial a charge scales- weigh by volume noy weight better accuracy!!!

al
05-10-2011, 09:18 PM
Grizzly

an old thread:


http://www.refrigeration-engineer.com/forums/archive/index.php/t-8903.html

Also and this may be a load of cobblers but would the different evap temps cause the stat to not work properly (i could be talking thru my ass with that thought!!)

If it was mine i'd vac, new drier, charge 134a one gauge line full at a time, leave it for 15 minutes, have a digestive and then another gauge line worth.

al

install monkey
05-10-2011, 09:24 PM
its not a beko is it- the inferno range!!!

chillerman2006
05-10-2011, 09:31 PM
Grizzly

an old thread:


http://www.refrigeration-engineer.com/forums/archive/index.php/t-8903.html

Also and this may be a load of cobblers but would the different evap temps cause the stat to not work properly (i could be talking thru my ass with that thought!!)

If it was mine i'd vac, new drier, charge 134a one gauge line full at a time, leave it for 15 minutes, have a digestive and then another gauge line worth.

al

Hi Al

looking at the pressures good point

a fridge will be out but a freezer looks ok as pressures start to match

thats presuming its bulb type stat and not digi with thermsitors (as this would be ok)

R's chillerman

al
05-10-2011, 09:35 PM
It might not matter, jesus Grizzly it's lucky you're a mate!! i had to stop looking at them even for mates as half the time i couldn't get parts.

al

monkey spanners
05-10-2011, 10:11 PM
Cool! Chillerman.

MS. I might need a special hammer, who knows?
I don't suppose either of you, or anyone else?

Would have a clue regarding charge amounts when retro-fitting R134a.

As indicated the R600a charge is 88g.

Thanks Grizzly


I meant they do R600a in the mapp sized bottles, but see know thats not what i typed.....

Jon :o

Grizzly
05-10-2011, 10:25 PM
Thanks for all the input guys.
I have always walked away from anything with R600 in it, for obvious reasons.
But hey!
It's for family, I have not made any promises and have just said I will try and help.
I will let you know how it goes.

After all I ain't going to need to worry about the charge if I cannot identify the cause of the assumed leak.

I think I will insist upon the fridge freezer being moved outside into his Garage before i light the torch!

And I will insist upon a big bag of biscuits Al.
Im. I threw a small charging still away recently which I had originally rescued from a skip outside of a white goods repair shop.
Ironic isn't it! Your comment about the gauge line charge amount is very interesting!

Someone will be saying about charge until you get sweating back on the suction line next!
chillerman!
Booklet? Yes please my friend.

Any help is appreciated!


MS. FSW is ? I am in Somerset remember and at least 30-40 miles from a wholesaler.
Do you reckon Halfords have got any?

Grizzly. Oh! by the way it's a Samsung.

install monkey
05-10-2011, 10:52 PM
samsungs are problematic for ice forming on the fan, if its lost gas u might struggle to find the leak, so have a look,condemn it and eat biscuits! - job done!!

monkey spanners
05-10-2011, 11:05 PM
FSW is the new name for RPW,

Found this with google shopping,

http://www.espares.co.uk/part/fridges-and-freezers/indesit/p/1084/805/0/0/1327955/r600a-isobutane-refrigera.html?utm_source=google+base&utm_medium=shopping&utm_campaign=google+base

Jon :)

mikeref
05-10-2011, 11:26 PM
Grizzly, if not already mentioned, R600a runs with mineral oil, not synthetic and R134a may overload compressor. Mind you, yet to do practical tests on hydrocarbon domestics as they are still quite new to Aus.

tonto33
06-10-2011, 02:40 PM
U cant use R134a if it running on R600a as knackers the compressor,you need to change the dryer at the same time either lokring it or braze it, if braze it blast with nitrogen 1st as R600a likes to go with a bang, we weigh the gas in bottle of r600 we sell for £12 a bottle

tonto33
06-10-2011, 02:52 PM
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GAUFvx_ac2Q

paul_h
06-10-2011, 03:13 PM
Wow, crimp lock rings, never seen them before.
But why not purge to hell with nitro and then braze!

CM a lot of domestics are switching to r600a here. Why the hell not?
R134a sucks as a freezer refrigerant.
Lots of fridges now how a -40-30C quick freeze compartment (only possible with r600a)
Lots of fridge manufacturers are chasing the efficiency market, only possible with r600a.

I don't know what thread you are referring to in regards to the brother in laws fridge though.

But basically domestics are a 'no sealed system' repair industry now anyway. Only PCBs, timers, sensors, fans etc are bothered with these days, anything more serious then replace fridge.
It's mainly white good/washing machine guys touch them, and they don't have refrig quals. So it's standard practice to say if the refrigerant needs touching, bin it. And if everyone is binning it if there's a refrig problem ,then the manufacturers may as well use r600a for all the benefits it has, as it's not economical to repair a domestic fridge with r134a anyway.

chillerman2006
06-10-2011, 07:05 PM
Hi Paul


The only benefit I see to a domestic charged with R600 is if under 150g, you can cut the tube and vent it when it goes wrong.......a unit on R134a costs money to have taken away as the refrigerant has to be recovered (both governed here by EU/UK laws)

R290 (propane) is on par with R404a and at less than 50% weight to mass of hcfc's the bottle sure feel light

pm me your email mate & will send you some info on hydrocarbons

R's chillerman :)

paul_h
07-10-2011, 02:40 PM
Sorry about the confusion CM, I only dedicated that one paragraph to you, I wasn't on pills or anything,
New paragraph meant asking grizzly I don't know what thread he previously mentioned about his brother in laws fridge.

As far as the efficiency of r600a, to be honest I don't put a lot of thought into domestics. Sure there's two brands I'm familair with in regards to older models, and no one else in the city knows anything about them, so I repair them for money if it's out there. The rest of it I avoid completely though.

So I'm not familar with new stuff and don't want to be, I only listen to what I hear on the grapevine. EG electrolux has a high efficiency model, it's r600a. They have a model rated lower in efficiency, it's r134a. Another manufacturer has the same fridge as the electrolux high efficiency model, but on r134a, it's rated lower than the electrolux model of the same design on r600a.
Also someone elsewhere was asking about the asian market fridges with the -30-40C quick chill freezer. The factory told them that it's only available on the r600a models that aren't sold here, and they don't do that on the r134a models.
So no physics and calcs behind my thoughts as I don't spend any time thinking about domestics, just what I have seen and heard from the manufacturers and gov agencies rating efficiency.

mikeref
07-10-2011, 03:22 PM
C.M sure has a way of expressing himself and getting his point across. leaves me for dead.

chillerman2006
07-10-2011, 04:55 PM
Hi Paul

no worries mate :)

just thought you was either sharing 'IM's stash or Mike (aus) Brandy

there is 2 ways to look at R600

the one manufacturers are blinding customers with heat transfer (kj per kg) efficiency claims (I believe)

as hydrocarbons have twice the mass of hcfc's they appear this way to be twice as efficient

but as a compressor shifts mass ( cubic capacity) not weight and you need a compressor of twice the capacity to acheive the same work as with R600 v's R134a ...... then I presume (maybe wrongly) that the larger capacity compressor will consume more juice/electric

Maybe we have a designer familiar with both refrigerants who can clarify this for us.........anyone ???

R's chillerman

ps: if anyone has pauls email, send it me so I can spam him, only joking, he dont give it out ;) or is it just me ?

Plank!
07-10-2011, 07:49 PM
Hi Grizzly

HC's are a real pain in the backside.
just getting hold of reclaim cyclinders in the UK is a nightmare - we have a few chillers we inherited after the installers proved to be idiots, on the same site we have a bunch of ammonia chillers.
I much prefer the stinky ones. ;)

Anything over 30kg is a nightmare. The reclaim cyclinders make rocking horse sh*t common place, then they need special bottle connectors... Not helped by the units being badly converted R22 chillers, with badly wired control panels and no attempt at protecting the controls from explosion.

88g!?! If you do find a charging still remember HC's are about half the weight of normal refrigerants.

Other than that use normal gauges and 1/4" connections. BOC recomend triple purge with OFN before attempting to braze, even then expect to see flames when you sweat pipes off the compressor.
Take plenty of OFN, and a long vacuum hose, switching the vac pump on from the wall socket, rather than at the pump.
The HC course is less than half a day and easily covered in the little pocket guide they give you.
If I can find mine I'll scan it!

spimps
18-10-2011, 06:47 PM
Usual way in domestic trade is to charge via gauge to .45 bar,as has been said weight charging accurately is nigh on impossible to get right.

Emmett
18-10-2011, 09:35 PM
Let me get this right, were saving the enviornment with natural refrigerants while blowing up the house wife? Why did we ever quit using these types of refrigerants? I would think that a product labeled as extremely flamable would not be well suited for use in a kitchen.

chillerman2006
19-10-2011, 08:03 AM
Let me get this right, were saving the enviornment with natural refrigerants while blowing up the house wife? Why did we ever quit using these types of refrigerants? I would think that a product labeled as extremely flamable would not be well suited for use in a kitchen.

Hi Emmett

with you 100% here........ why o'why, beggars belief

would not be surprised if they come up with a replacement 'hot water bottle' next

filled with propane, that you carefully warm in oven, on a low heat :cool:

R's chillerman

MikeHolm
19-10-2011, 12:13 PM
CM, you imagination runs amuck... go boom

Emmett
19-10-2011, 01:49 PM
CM, you imagination runs amuck... go boom

Mike, I thought you might weigh in, just thought it would be more.

CM, If there is money to be made!

MikeHolm
19-10-2011, 02:33 PM
Mike, I thought you might weigh in, just thought it would be more.

CM, If there is money to be made!

Sorry to disappoint you. It was nothing more than a brain fart. Not all cells are working today...:D

chillerman2006
19-10-2011, 03:10 PM
CM, ... go boom

Hi Mike

are you telling me, they cant trust the public to just warm it up, just a little ;)




CM, If there is money to be made!

Hi Emmett

at the moment, hydrocarbons are cheap (well cheaper than HCFC's) as they are trying to sell them

once they have sold enough into the market place, the price will go up

and then with all the risks coupled to the price, domestic/commercial manufacturers will move on to

the 'next' money spinner, as you say ''IF there is money to be made''

R's chillerman

Grizzly
22-10-2011, 09:59 PM
Hi Guys.
To recap.
Brother in law's fridge freezer develops fault and stops working approx 9 months after having a new comp fitted.
I advised him from afar, it was probably short of refrigerant and highly likely the leak would be at the comp?
He called in the white goods repair firm that had carried out the original repair.
The young engineer that looked at it finally diagnosed a major leak and condemned the FF.
Showing my b-in law how each time he added refrigerant the Gauge immediately dropped back to zero pressure. (Discuss!)

I said no promises but I would look at it prior to him throwing it away.
Days before going down to look at it I discover it has R600a in it and post this plea for help.

Following the brilliant advise, I decide to stay with using R600a despite the issues!


Here's the update.
I deferred ordering the R600a until I had looked at the fridge freezer.
Mainly because I reasoned.
What good would the R600a be to me, if I either could not find the leak or having found it repair the leak.
So having set up I put 100psi of nitrogen into the system and using Snoop.
I found the leak virtually straight away on a lokring fitting on the comp suction line.
I also discovered the comp service valve schraeder was leaking when I came to undo the hose fitting.
Guess where the huge leak was coming from, given that there was also a schraeder on the liquid line filter. So it would be easy enough to simulate a large leak!

The lines were of sufficient length so I was able to draw the comp out from the back, cut off the lokring and whilst slow purging with nitrogen braze the suction line.
The system was then re-pressure tested and left pressurized with nitrogen.

My brother in law then ordered the R600a from the link supplied, thanks MS.
Mid way through the following week I checked and discovered that disposable cans of R600a are easy enough to get hold of.
What is not obvious is that you need a special adapter to connect up to them, which thankfully is also available on-line.


Back for the second weekend and what the guys say is correct.
Forget what it shows in the video that Tonto kindly supplied about charging by weight.
I added the charge by weight and got the fridge down to near temp but no lower.
I ended as IM suggests adding a little each time and having a biscuit (actually it was a beer or 2 thanks Al.)
adding some more.
Having gotten down to about -20 by late Saturday the fridge was left with product in it to settle overnight.
I ended up adding literally a small squirt on Sunday to get the freezer going out on stat at -20.

Sadly Spimps had not added his good advise at that stage re charging to .45bar.

That was Sunday last and the ff has worked fine all week.

So thanks for the good advice guys.
Whenever I next go back I will put a set of gauges on to check the Suction Pressure as advised.

Give me the large systems any day these domestics are to charge critical.
Thanks once again.
It's great to be guided by so many knowledgeable people.
Grizzly

install monkey
22-10-2011, 10:03 PM
well done grizz- wheres our biccy!!haha

Hi Guys.
To recap.
Brother in law's fridge freezer develops fault and stops working approx 9 months after having a new comp fitted.
I advised him from afar, it was probably short of refrigerant and highly likely the leak would be at the comp?
He called in the white goods repair firm that had carried out the original repair.
The young engineer that looked at it finally diagnosed a major leak and condemned the FF.
Showing my b-in law how each time he added refrigerant the Gauge immediately dropped back to zero pressure. (Discuss!)

I said no promises but I would look at it prior to him throwing it away.
Days before going down to look at it I discover it has R600a in it and post this plea for help.

Following the brilliant advise, I decide to stay with using R600a despite the issues!


Here's the update.
I deferred ordering the R600a until I had looked at the fridge freezer.
Mainly because I reasoned.
What good would the R600a be to me, if I either could not find the leak or having found it repair the leak.
So having set up I put 100psi of nitrogen into the system and using Snoop.
I found the leak virtually straight away on a lokring fitting on the comp suction line.
I also discovered the comp service valve schraeder was leaking when I came to undo the hose fitting.
Guess where the huge leak was coming from, given that there was also a schraeder on the liquid line filter. So it would be easy enough to simulate a large leak!

The lines were of sufficient length so I was able to draw the comp out from the back, cut off the lokring and whilst slow purging with nitrogen braze the suction line.
The system was then re-pressure tested and left pressurized with nitrogen.

My brother in law then ordered the R600a from the link supplied, thanks MS.
Mid way through the following week I checked and discovered that disposable cans of R600a are easy enough to get hold of.
What is not obvious is that you need a special adapter to connect up to them, which thankfully is also available on-line.


Back for the second weekend and what the guys say is correct.
Forget what it shows in the video that Tonto kindly supplied about charging by weight.
I added the charge by weight and got the fridge down to near temp but no lower.
I ended as IM suggests adding a little each time and having a biscuit (actually it was a beer or 2 thanks Al.)
adding some more.
Having gotten down to about -20 by late Saturday the fridge was left with product in it to settle overnight.
I ended up adding literally a small squirt on Sunday to get the freezer going out on stat at -20.

Sadly Spimps had not added his good advise at that stage re charging to .45bar.

That was Sunday last and the ff has worked fine all week.

So thanks for the good advice guys.
Whenever I next go back I will put a set of gauges on to check the Suction Pressure as advised.

Give me the large systems any day these domestics are to charge critical.
Thanks once again.
It's great to be guided by so many knowledgeable people.
Grizzly

chillerman2006
22-10-2011, 10:09 PM
Hi Grizzly

Big pat on the back for patiently succeeding with that one mate

And if mine ever goes down I know who to call to fix it now !

Can I predict your reply begins and ends in 'F'

R's chillerman

Grizzly
22-10-2011, 10:39 PM
A positive genius!
He's lucky he is family.
Seriously though it does make you wonder how often it's deemed easier to condemn than repair?

However given the time it took me I would struggle to make a profit.
Thanks my friend.
Grizzly.

al
23-10-2011, 03:52 PM
Well done Grizz, family eh?? :)

taffy-boy
01-11-2011, 11:19 AM
domestics are easy peasy