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View Full Version : Air to Water Heatpump or chiller?







Grizzly
25-09-2011, 05:13 PM
I was on a Advanced fault finding course recently.
But whilst we know that the new range of Heatpumps designed to either work alongside a C/H boiler or even replace them.
Are basically reverse cycle a/c machines.
What became apparent was that many of the operating issues are much more relevant to chillers.
Especially where the heat loads or flow rates apply.

It certainly seeems to be the next growth area, especially within the U.K. Where apparently after 2016 fossil fuel heating will not be allowed to be installed on "New Builds".
Add to that the fact that next year (I think?) there will be finacial incentives for installing heatpumps, be it new or retrtofit.

At present these are being marketed at the building / Plumbing trades.
Which some would argue is wrong, maybe not!

If a monobloc is used then all that is connected is a power supply and 2 water pipes.
When it's refrigeration circuit has issues a qualified refrigeration engineer is required.
Now that is music to my ears provided our own industry does not de-value our input?

Has anyone else been watching this side of "Our Market?"


Grizzly

chillerman2006
25-09-2011, 05:35 PM
Hi Grizzly
I have not mate
Did look into ground source heat pumps a few years back
and the company wanted me to dig trenches it sounded like
ontop of installing everything and commissioning
offered to commission only - told me where to go
emailed me on their knees 9 months later when builders kept doing something wrong
I did not bother replying - thought let the builders keep getting something wrong until
they prepared to pay 40k basic, I stick to chillers
R's chillerman

al
25-09-2011, 05:38 PM
It's been happening for some time, there are a few members here who are very knowledgeable on them!!
Being honest the way most of these packages are built and marketed is direct to consumer so plumbers are
ideally placed to sell them. I think a huge amount of trust needs to be built up by end users though as they
have been so missold in the past.

The best people to service them.....probably chiller men to be honest!! purely down to the fact they understand water flow.

al

chillerman2006
25-09-2011, 07:40 PM
Grizzly & Al

the thing concerning me about these units is I am not at design level
I have been following closely some posts recently on heat pumps
especially' mad fridgie & mikeholm' who have this area sust
and the problem appears each time upon design of installation
manufacturers not fully understanding their own application
which would leave me possibly struggling with diagnostics as I would be
presuming design was correct and there was a fault
one in particular recently was running in series through 3 tanks and reducing pressure each time
instead of in parrallel, giving a single pressure drop
wish I had been on that course with you Grizzly, may have to fund my own
to keep me up there with (the future) what appears to be the only viable alternative to gas ch

R;s chillerman

al
25-09-2011, 08:23 PM
But as a chiller engineer you've seen allegedly good kit (some from basildon!!) installed and utilised in a
completely idiotic way, so trouble shooting heat pumps would be similar.

al

chillerman2006
25-09-2011, 08:58 PM
But as a chiller engineer you've seen allegedly good kit (some from basildon!!) installed and utilised in a
completely idiotic way, so trouble shooting heat pumps would be similar.

al

Yeah forgot mate
heat pumps your area of specialality too
will have to speak to Grizzly when about next & find out about this course
as never touched one before & dont wanna be left trailing when the obvious rush
begins

Either that or I gonna be the newbie here with a million & 1 questions for you guys

R's chillerman

RSTC
25-09-2011, 10:29 PM
No fossil fuels in new builds by 2016!

Where did you hear that?

Grizzly
26-09-2011, 05:53 PM
I heard it on 2 different Heatpump courses over the last couple of months.
Ok, the main topic was the latest apparently not very reliable gas fired condensing boilers.

I have assumed it also relates to other fossil fuels, but am more than happy to retract my statement if others here know better.
This is the U.K. I am refering to, all the new housing around us has solar panels fitted as standard.
More to come as I say!
Grizzly

al
26-09-2011, 06:24 PM
RSTC

i've seen similar mentioned on boards.ie recently afaik, sure Duncan(an irish green campaigner for non paddys) would have us living in mud huts if he could!!!

al

Grizzly
26-09-2011, 06:28 PM
Is that afaik or Duncan that hugs the trees?
Grizzly

stufus
26-09-2011, 07:04 PM
Don't know about tree hugging. But i do know the clown fell of a roof while doing a show about site safety in chernoble(probably spelt wrong).
As Delboy would say a 24 carat plonker.
Cheers
Stu

Grizzly
26-09-2011, 07:42 PM
Priceless!

al
26-09-2011, 08:10 PM
Absolutely brilliant, he does a show called eco eye, you get the picture!!

Grizz i thought condensing boilers were the be all and end all of heat efficiency, not so??

al

RSTC
26-09-2011, 08:51 PM
I think it was a tree he fell out of (reports have neither confirmed nor denied he was hugging it at the time)

But no fossil fuels in new builds... really? ... by 2016 .... seriously?

So lets see how that works, no open fires cause that's coal real - estate agents are not going to like that
no oil boilers? We like our oil boilers here, I'm sure the UK is the same. (But at €850 to fill a tank I'll listen)
no gas boilers? - even the be all and end all condensing combi jobbies (only efficient if set up correctly and matched to UFH Al)
no combined heat and power (CHP)? cause the run off gas too
no fuel cells - cause I need gas for that too (oh, and you can't actually buy one) (www.ceres.co.uk (http://www.ceres.co.uk))

So how about heat pumps, huzzar, that MUST be the answer, no wait, they run on electricity and in the UK over 75% of electricity comes from .... yup, fossil fuels.

Grizzly
26-09-2011, 10:02 PM
You must stop being so negative RSTC. Our glourious previous PM. Needed to make a name for himself and volunteered the UK for all sorts of cr*p.
I am hoping some of the other guys will set the record straight?
Al.
The plumber of 30 yrs that I met last month.
Reckoned that there was an upgraded version of gas condensing boilers to soon be released as the existing ones have a sulphur build up problem.
In his own words even those that are thought of as the muts nuts can fail in 12 months or less.
It seems that more efficient does not meen more reliable!


Either way I see Heat pumps and there are some amasing stats flying around regarding Co2 ones.
Are going to become very popular, provided they become cheaper.

My colleague was talking to a frenchman last year, who turned out to be in local government and something to do with enviromental Energy?
Anyway they were talking about heat pumps and apparently the French Government has subsidised their installation.
So many had been installed that the first cold snap of the winter, saw the french electricity grid go into freefall.
Such was the peak demand from all these cheap and low consumption H-pumps.

Over here the big energy suppliers are getting ready for next years instalation incentives!
Just try and find out about any other than the Daikin Altherma.
Grizzly

al
26-09-2011, 10:27 PM
Ah but our electricity suppliers are working on smart meters, we all reckon they're to save us money by alerting us when tariffs are high, but the way i see it is, they are a means to brown out non essential areas, ie
houses!

Best heat pumps i've heard of consist of a standard condensing unit, basic stat, and an evaporator hung
outside the house!! All parts generic and easy to service!

al

MikeHolm
26-09-2011, 11:45 PM
Grizzly & Al

the thing concerning me about these units is I am not at design level
I have been following closely some posts recently on heat pumps
especially' mad fridgie & mikeholm' who have this area sust
and the problem appears each time upon design of installation
manufacturers not fully understanding their own application
which would leave me possibly struggling with diagnostics as I would be
presuming design was correct and there was a fault
one in particular recently was running in series through 3 tanks and reducing pressure each time
instead of in parrallel, giving a single pressure drop
wish I had been on that course with you Grizzly, may have to fund my own
to keep me up there with (the future) what appears to be the only viable alternative to gas ch

R;s chillerman

Hold on CM, don't put me in the same league as their royal highnesses Des and mad (and for that matter the American Jedi). I can only but grovel at their well anointed feet in the faint hope that some of their un-worldly genius (widget aside) would rub off on little me.

desA
27-09-2011, 08:27 AM
The heat-pump industry would surely welcome a hybrid hvac engineer, plumber, electrician.

A heating & cooling engineer?

Quality
27-09-2011, 08:59 AM
Another ticket that's coming of age is th C&G 2399 that will eventually cover the refrigeration aspect of heat pumps

RSTC
27-09-2011, 09:10 AM
@grizzly. Sorry don't mean to be a hater! I'm actually a big supporter of heat pumps. Because of that, I get worried when I see well meaning but utterly outlandish suggestions or claims.

Don't say they are carbon neutral (better yes, neutral no)
Yes the do use fossil fuels (but less so ask your elec supplier about their 'fuel mix')
It's not free heat (you have to pay for the electricity but alot less than storage heating and oil is mental cost money now)
No you shouldn't use the existing radiators (same with condensing boilers and UFH is prettier)
Yes there will be noise from the compressor and the evaporator fan (so don't put it in your bedroom)
No they don't work by magic or breast feed polar bear babies

It's these sales pitches which leave the owner with a bad taste afterwards, and bad press for the industry

Over here the heat pump industry has been largely ignored by the RAC industry and taken by the heating people... a missed opportunity perhaps at this stage?

Al takes the prize for sensible comment of the day, really simple really works.

RSTC
27-09-2011, 09:16 AM
is the 2399 not a 'installer' course which only touches on the refrigeration cycle?

Quality
27-09-2011, 10:39 AM
is the 2399 not a 'installer' course which only touches on the refrigeration cycle?Yes it is but should lead onto the refrigeration side hence eventually

Grizzly
27-09-2011, 04:34 PM
RSTC.
Room for us all my friend, Your knowledgable input is valued.
Me I am only saying it as I am seeing it, as I learn more the more interesting it is all becoming.

Quality, thanks for the info.
So will OEM Install courses do?
Or is this the same as has happened over in New Zealand as Maggo was explaining to me (Off Forum).
Where everyone is an installer, I smell a rat as they say.
Grizzly

Quality
27-09-2011, 07:58 PM
Yes my good friend I have already seen the rat but Only it's tail !!!

MikeHolm
27-09-2011, 11:48 PM
I believe that the goal of the govt is to reduce the consumption of oil and gas and replace it with electrical use that is to be created by wind, PV, biomass and tidal or wave power (which the UK is the leader in). For that reason I support the use of heat pumps (aside from the fact that they are really neat and technically challenging).

It naturally must lead to more fridge jobs and but there will be some adjustment in the mean time as things get buggered up (as we say in Nova Scotia). Give it time and push for better training.

Grizzly
28-09-2011, 06:08 AM
It naturally must lead to more fridge jobs and but there will be some adjustment in the mean time as things get buggered up (as we say in Nova Scotia). Give it time and push for better training.

Wise words!
With the different disciplines and trades covered on the forum.
We should be able to see the next fleecing of the trades.
Should we not? We shall see?
Grizzly

chillerman2006
28-09-2011, 08:53 PM
is the 2399 not a 'installer' course which only touches on the refrigeration cycle?

Hi All

With another xmas cracker give away ticket coming out, this 2399

to allow any one who's knows nothing yet again to play/install/balls up these units

I am loosing interest fast

All you need to add icing to the cake is 'mecury climatic' to start making them !

:off topic:See one of their (so called) chillers last week & one of their all in one packaged units this week, with a ridiculous chiller set up, shoe horned in, they have got to be the worst designed systems I have ever seen.

10 fans come on in pairs for staging, all that happens is, the other fans run backwards, next to no air flow, untill they all run...Der !

2 circuits, 4 compressors each, turn off 1/2 compressors on a circuit wishing to run/test the others and whole circuit shuts down...Der !


The only bonus has been they are in the West End & this mini heat wave has meant all the Jack & Danny is back in full bloom, lovely jubbly


Has anyone else had the diss-pleasure of this brand ???

R's chillerman

install monkey
28-09-2011, 09:02 PM
yep-it was fujitsu at crewe-the pc's not the splits-new building only 18mth old,the chiller was only 14mth old and the only problems were 2 compressors down out of 8 and again 1 cond fan and 1 siezed chilled water pump-the one at the back-never the easy accessible,at the end of the chiller the big panel u take off to access the compressors u nearly hit a fan,and the piece of **** trips on high pressure=if ur lucky to have gas in it,the cmpressors arent acoustically housed or sheilded from the condenser airflow!! and no access to manuals-if they exist!!!

stufus
28-09-2011, 09:10 PM
7865I have indeed had the pleasure some twat sparks decided the whole electrical panel needed pulling apart because of a HP fault...
He then replaced the HP switch....No joy ..
So I was sent out.
Feed to the FSC was cut where it passed through the bulkhead.
So explained to the client.In my best businessman head .tThis gear is crap but the control gear is even worse.I will sell you a Carel micro chiller up grade for 5k euro.
Sold ...worth more than the fookin unit.
Try ring them for info !!! Great fun ....
Universal answer... All our unit's are bespoke we dont keep records..Priceless
Cheers
Stu

chillerman2006
28-09-2011, 09:18 PM
Install/Stu

Thanks gents, was sitting here typing and thinking to myself as I did

Have I got this right ?? Was it just a bad dream ??

How long has this company been running ??

Surely specifiers and engineers dont recommend these heaps of junk ??

R's chillerman

MikeHolm
28-09-2011, 11:47 PM
7865I have indeed had the pleasure some twat sparks decided the whole electrical panel needed pulling apart because of a HP fault...
He then replaced the HP switch....No joy ..
So I was sent out.
Feed to the FSC was cut where it passed through the bulkhead.
So explained to the client.In my best businessman head .tThis gear is crap but the control gear is even worse.I will sell you a Carel micro chiller up grade for 5k euro.
Sold ...worth more than the fookin unit.
Try ring them for info !!! Great fun ....
Universal answer... All our unit's are bespoke we dont keep records..Priceless
Cheers
Stu


I deny it, categorically, I don't care what you say, I didn't do it. Not my work....spaghetti

Bigfreeze
29-09-2011, 07:47 PM
@grizzly. Sorry don't mean to be a hater! I'm actually a big supporter of heat pumps. Because of that, I get worried when I see well meaning but utterly outlandish suggestions or claims.

Don't say they are carbon neutral (better yes, neutral no)
Yes the do use fossil fuels (but less so ask your elec supplier about their 'fuel mix')
It's not free heat (you have to pay for the electricity but alot less than storage heating and oil is mental cost money now)
No you shouldn't use the existing radiators (same with condensing boilers and UFH is prettier)
Yes there will be noise from the compressor and the evaporator fan (so don't put it in your bedroom)
No they don't work by magic or breast feed polar bear babies

It's these sales pitches which leave the owner with a bad taste afterwards, and bad press for the industry

Over here the heat pump industry has been largely ignored by the RAC industry and taken by the heating people... a missed opportunity perhaps at this stage?

Al takes the prize for sensible comment of the day, really simple really works.

Fridge engineers have missed the boat big time both here and in the UK. Plumbers, unless they're as serious and interested in the technology as the likes of Mike H are way out of their depth when it comes to heat pumps and are the reason for alot of the problems relating to HP's in both countries.
I'm currently in the middle of establishing a network of installers for a particular brand of HP's here in Ireland and would be very picky about who we choose. Our preference would be mainly fridgies though as the learning curve is nowhere near as steep and its much easier learn the plumbing side than it is the fridge side.

Bigfreeze
29-09-2011, 07:49 PM
I deny it, categorically, I don't care what you say, I didn't do it. Not my work....spaghetti

Certainly looks like yours Mike ;)

r.bartlett
29-09-2011, 10:31 PM
On Monday morning I am meeting DUK on a 3 story office block site to discuss removing two large but redundant gas burners (less than 2 years old) and fitting an Altherma c/w solar and god knows what else. This stuff is being pushed like mad and a lot of new builds won't get approval unless they inc ASHP instead of gas.

Speaking of which yes indeed the g.meant (previous but this hasn't been rescinded) is intent on reducing our reliance on gas as it comes from those pesky Ruskies. They have an awful habit of turning off the supply if they either don't like your or you don't pay the gas bill on time

The French have been heavily subsidising HP's for years and the place is littered with them. French like their nuclear energy and with a lot of rural properties gas isn't and never will be available. Sadly their electric infrastructure is also poor so as said above they can't cope with the higher demand. Inverters may help but the French are into their own manufacturers not those Japanese fancy boys.

the only chance gas has got is if this new shale find in Blackpool comes on stream then it's all back to cheap gas if not, AS + GS HP's will become more and more popular(wrong word as they will never be popular) but they ain't very good and we're all going to shiver in the winter as burning fiver's is cheaper than a ASHP when it drops to zero.

al
29-09-2011, 10:55 PM
We've shale gas heading your way early next year, and i see poland has discovered some massive field
recently!

We as an industry need to get our heads around this stuff, it's profitable and when done right is
unbeatable.

Bigfreeze, give me a shout when you have time.

al

MikeHolm
30-09-2011, 12:51 AM
Certainly looks like yours Mike ;)

OHHHHH, why I otta....How ya doing BF, long time no hear.

MikeHolm
30-09-2011, 12:54 AM
We've shale gas heading your way early next year, and i see poland has discovered some massive field
recently!

We as an industry need to get our heads around this stuff, it's profitable and when done right is
unbeatable.

Bigfreeze, give me a shout when you have time.

al


I hope this shale gas is not fracking.......you might end up with a lot of gas but no water to drink and a lot of people getting sick. This is already happening in British columbia

Bigfreeze
30-09-2011, 09:52 AM
Hows things Mike, its been a while alright. We have gas coming in from an off shore find in the near future but there is talk of fracking too. Haven't looked into it too much but I will now!