Carrier direct drive compressors [Archive] - Refrigeration-Engineer.com forums

sonkax

05-09-2011, 08:19 PM

Hello!
Does anyone know what kind of operations must be made before changing a compresor
on a direct drive unit, it's the second one...
We changed the filter drier, oil separator the hot gas valves and also replaced the bypass thermostat(it was working but it was moving on the fitting)...
Everything was fine for about 2 months and then the compressor broke again....
now we are fitting the second one, and i was wondering is there a way to clean the hoses, condenser and the evaporator(s)...we tried blowing it whit Nitrogen gas, and even wash it with refrigerant but dirt still remains in the circuit.
Does someone know a way that this cleaning can be done???

Edvin

08-09-2011, 04:59 PM

We dismount all the components(evaporator, condensser, reciever, valves) and fluch the system with acetone and blow it with compressed air( the hoses can be flush on the car), change dryer and seperator . After assambly loooooong vacumation process and when the unit is running check and if needed correct CPR and TXV regulations.

sonkax

08-09-2011, 08:52 PM

thanks for the advice.does this get rid of the blackness from the copper tubing?

douryd

11-09-2011, 05:51 PM

douryd

11-09-2011, 05:55 PM

Addition to previous post...

This gets rid of some of the black dirt in hoses.
Be sure to insulate the injection thermostat and use 46 or 68 viscosity oil.

We think our failures has to do with overheating the compressor.

chillerman2006

11-09-2011, 06:27 PM

Your system should be clean - there is no burn out on direct drive

I would be looking at your hoses, are they poor quality and breaking down or is your discharge temperature's too high and your cooking the hoses ???

Or do you have moisture problems ???

Either way fit suction line filters & clean the system up properly

Another way to clean up is build a 'mojo'

Get a 2 or 4 cylinder direct drive trailor unit compressor on a frame with a motor

On the unit link out the txv and drier then connect up the 'mojo' and run refrigerant through the system .... stop change oil in mojo .... repeat .... repeat until system is clean and 'mojo' oil remains clean

R' chillerman

mouse

12-09-2011, 04:09 PM

This is a very interesting topic....

We are also having trouble with Carrier Direct drive and their compressors...

Ideas?

Compressors...made in China ?

douryd

12-09-2011, 05:33 PM

How can I tell if the compressor is made in china or not?
Labels and stickers are all Seltec or Valeo....

Anyone tried Unikla (yes chinese, but looks to be made for R404A)

chillerman2006

12-09-2011, 05:46 PM

How can I tell if the compressor is made in china or not?
Labels and stickers are all Seltec or Valeo....

Anyone tried Unikla (yes chinese, but looks to be made for R404A)

I remember this in another thread, which may also be an additional issue

but you still need to clean your systems up properly or the oil will not be lubracating and compressors will fail

here is the other thread http://www.refrigeration-engineer.com/forums/showthread.php?32541-tm-15-16-quest-comps

R's chillerman

mouse

12-09-2011, 06:03 PM

[QUOTE=douryd;240291]How can I tell if the compressor is made in china or not?QUOTE]

1-after price
2-poor quality aluminium after one week of duty.
3- search the compressor manufacturer name on internet.Genuine parts are not manufactured in theat area.
Labels are easy to duplicate...quality not !

sonkax

12-09-2011, 07:51 PM

The compressors that we got from carrier were made in japan.
I believe the compressors are overheating and that's why they fail, we just have to find out why... one of the reasons can also be the HGS valve(s) are leaking so we change those as well just to be sure, and still have failures.
One the last unit we changed everything hgs valve kit, txv even a part of the hp hose, washed the circuit every part by itself and unit still broke broke down just after a week the only thing that remains is the cpr as we are thinking that the valve does not allow oil to get back in the compressor, the unit is without an oil separator.
Now the strange thing is that there are lots of units running with the same compressor type and they are all fine.

sonkax

12-09-2011, 08:35 PM

This is a very interesting topic....

We are also having trouble with Carrier Direct drive and their compressors...
Our procedure is as follows:

1. Blow hoses and valves with nitrogen.
2. Replace drier and oil separator.
3. Connect suction line filter and oil return filter.
4. Leak-check,Vacuum and rechage.
5. Run 10 hrs, check CPR and TXV settings.
6. Remove filters (reclaim and recharge)
7. Return to customer

Still they fail...

Ideas?

what king of filters do you use for this?
We use 68 viscosity oil and we insulate the thermostat but that's not the problem, the inj.thermostat is just for safety and in normal conditions will never activate. I seen lots of units on witch this has been removed and they still work perfectly.

sonkax

13-09-2011, 10:30 AM

Your system should be clean - there is no burn out on direct drive

I would be looking at your hoses, are they poor quality and breaking down or is your discharge temperature's too high and your cooking the hoses ???

R' chillerman

Actually that is one of the problems, the discharge temp is high and damages the hoses, so we had to change a few of them.
The other thing is that the suction line in most of the cases is clean not even a bit smoked...

Can i use a maxima compressor for the mojo?

chillerman2006

13-09-2011, 11:40 AM

Actually that is one of the problems, the discharge temp is high and damages the hoses, so we had to change a few of them.
The other thing is that the suction line in most of the cases is clean not even a bit smoked...

Can i use a maxima compressor for the mojo?

Yes that will be perfect,

Once you have the system cleaned up, that high discharge temp has got to be rectified

If your cooking hose's it either an issue with liquid injection not working (if fitted) or your suction superheat is too high

R's chillerman

clivemtk

13-09-2011, 07:58 PM

what vehicle is all this happening on and which carrier model havent seen it mentioned yet

chillerman2006

13-09-2011, 08:05 PM

what vehicle is all this happening on and which carrier model havent seen it mentioned yet

What you thinking clive ???

That its geared wrong and rpm's too high, that was only other thing I could think of

remember a few t/k's on sprinters had an issue like that on early v250

was the cure a larger belt & ider pulley ???

Regards Chillerman (http://www.refrigeration-engineer.com/forums/member.php?4978-chillerman2006)

douryd

13-09-2011, 08:14 PM

Some news:
we have ran the unit (viento 350) in 2 - 4 hours, with oil changes in between.
oil has got better and better.
my experience in this case is that suction filter (burn out type, had one in a old old box)
and oil filter did not do well enough.
I guess you need a proper oil pump to make good use of compressor oil filter.
After 3:rd oil change I see oil is decent clean.

I have torn one of the old failed seltecs apart.
Valves are all ok.
Bearings are ok.
All pistons are worn out as are the liners.
Never done this but it looks like overheating.

chillerman: Suction superheat too high?
Superheat is as Carrier says, you want me to open the txv to cool the suction side?

Liquid injection is 105C for TK, 124 for Carrier and Mitsubishi Direct drive units.
Can this have a part in these problems?

douryd

13-09-2011, 08:18 PM

chillerman2006

14-09-2011, 12:30 AM

chillerman: Suction superheat too high?
Superheat is as Carrier says, you want me to open the txv to cool the suction side?

Liquid injection is 105C for TK, 124 for Carrier and Mitsubishi Direct drive units.
Can this have a part in these problems?

hi douryd

suction superheat takes time to get right on direct drive with multiple speeds
Check at various speeds
It should be no higher than 7 and no lower than 5
If it stays within this range then we need to look elsewhere

although liquid injection has quite a varient there between t/k & carrier, we should presume there figures are ok

but saying that if superheat & rpm is within spec & liquid injection works ok, I would be starting to wonder if t/k have found a problem and rectified it first

rpm...do you have a tachometer to check your not going above the limits mentioned in your other post

I will phone a friend tomorrow and see if he can tell us anymore

Regards Chillerman (http://www.refrigeration-engineer.com/forums/member.php?4978-chillerman2006)

chillerman2006

14-09-2011, 12:32 AM

Vehicles : MB Sprinter and VW Crafter, west aircon bracketry.

what rpm is the limit? seltec says 4000 continous, 6000 downshift.

Too high rpm will definatley kill the compressor, but what is your opinion of the limit?

As of my previous post, will make a phone call & ask a friend/carrier dealer for more info

Regards Chillerman (http://www.refrigeration-engineer.com/forums/member.php?4978-chillerman2006)

sonkax

14-09-2011, 12:42 PM

the rpm is a thing that we never checked on direct drive compressor as we always use genuine mounting brackets and pulleys so i guess they must be ok if carrier supplies them. that cannot be our problem as we have 2 identical xarios 350 mt and only one of them broke down several times, now the problem is somewhere in the cleaning process
or clearly we missed something....
the strange thing is that the unit worked fine for 2 months, not just a week or two as the other ones that failed...
We had a washing machine for a while (from carrier) witch comes with a special mixture and circulates it in the circuit... but that didn't help much either.

so that's why i started this thread to see if somebody succesfully replaced this compressors and they work way longer than 2 months

chillerman2006

14-09-2011, 12:52 PM

Gents

have made a few calls this morning, different ends of the country trying to get a difference response for you's

the answer each time has been 1 of 3, liquid injection, suction superheat and a new one to me but both said the same

driver abuse, as in drivers revving the engine through all the gears hard all the time, as I say not heard of that one before, if none of these are not your issue, at a loss to know what else to suggest

there is a number of good transport engineers here, maybe one of them will shed some more light

clive above may return for one

Regards Chillerman (http://www.refrigeration-engineer.com/forums/member.php?4978-chillerman2006)

sonkax

14-09-2011, 04:56 PM

hi douryd

suction superheat takes time to get right on direct drive with multiple speeds
Check at various speeds
It should be no higher than 7 and no lower than 5
If it stays within this range then we need to look elsewhere

Regards Chillerman (http://www.refrigeration-engineer.com/forums/member.php?4978-chillerman2006)

is that F or Celsius?
i'm asking because in their instalation manuals carrier does not specify suction superheat.
Anyway sometime next week when the parts will arrive will start work on an unit, it's compressor lasted 1 week before blowing down the hp hose...

douryd

14-09-2011, 08:27 PM

chillerman2006

15-09-2011, 05:24 PM

is that F or Celsius?
i'm asking because in their instalation manuals carrier does not specify suction superheat.
Anyway sometime next week when the parts will arrive will start work on an unit, it's compressor lasted 1 week before blowing down the hp hose...
Hi sonkax

Thats celsius / kelvin, mate

The part you gents have got to get your head around is the relationship between suction/discharge temps & pressures

You are looking for as with all systems maximum evaporator cooling and adequate cooling for the compressor, without bringing back liquid

As long as its above 5k you are in pretty safe territory but once you exceed 7k your compressor cooling is dropping and when you have a constantly changing variable speed compressor as you's have, it is easy under hard excellaration to increase suction capacity faster than the system (txv) can stabilise, these systems can only really balance out properly under moderate excelleration and/or constant speeds

Regards Chillerman (http://www.refrigeration-engineer.com/forums/member.php?4978-chillerman2006)

chillerman2006

15-09-2011, 05:42 PM

chillerman,

Carrier says Xarios 350 mono superheat is set at 8. celsius in this part of the world.

If I let the evap get a little more refrigerant will cool the compressor?

From this last testing the only recommendation for getting a clean system is OIL CHANGE

thanks for your input in this subject!

Hi douryd

your superheat is basically how much heat is transfered into the refrigerant above its saturated temperature

As a liquid phase you have alot of mass
As a vapour phase you have little mass
At saturation you have a mixture of liquid & vapour

You feed a liquid into the evaporator which has a latent heat exchange when heat is added (high efficiency/heat transfer)

The lower the superheat, the better as this means you have more heat transfer going on and the trick is to keep this as low as possible without allowing liquid return to the compressor

The higher the superheat is at the compressor inlet, the lower the mass of refrigerant is, which has two knock on effects, one: less mass has less cooling ability for the compressor and two: the compressor has to work harder to achieve the same mass flow as it would with a refrigerant with a lower superheat/higher mass

8k from carrier I am presuming is a general/worldwide setting, this will suit some ambients better than others

R's chillerman

douryd

15-09-2011, 06:31 PM

Chillerman, that was spot on!!

One of the best explanations of this complex (to me) problem I have ever seen.

If our paths will cross the bar will be open on my account!!

chillerman2006

15-09-2011, 06:44 PM

douryd

your welcome mate

R's chillerman

sonkax

15-09-2011, 08:46 PM

chillerman,

Carrier says Xarios 350 mono superheat is set at 8. celsius in this part of the world.

that's txv superheat at an 0 C box temperature, and at -20 it's 4 C

clivemtk

15-09-2011, 10:20 PM

which unit are you trying to fix 1 viento 350 does not have a oil sep 2 rpm on latest sprinters and v\w are higher rev a 59-60 sprinter at stand still and 4100 can be achieved

chillerman2006

15-09-2011, 11:57 PM

that's txv superheat at an 0 C box temperature, and at -20 it's 4 C

Hi sonkax

Ok well you now have carriers recommended setup 4k@ -20 & 8k@ 0 ....... you can check your units

Do some hard revving and then let go of the throttle & watch the varients

Speak to clivemtk about your vehicles & RPM, he has a massive understanding of this kit

He was one of the top engineers 15 years ago !!!

R's chillerman

sonkax

16-09-2011, 09:31 AM

which unit are you trying to fix 1 viento 350 does not have a oil sep 2 rpm on latest sprinters and v\w are higher rev a 59-60 sprinter at stand still and 4100 can be achieved

The unit is a xarios 200 without an oil separator and it's mounted on a Iveco Daily, some older model, as i sad will begin work on it sometime next week and i'll check all the settings and the compressor rpm as well, i'll let you know...
also one more thing, we changed the txv as it was not working . We didn't order the part from carrier, we bought it directly from danfoss, is there any difference between a genuine one and one from danfoss ( all the the direct drives from carrier that i seen are with danfoss txv's)

clivemtk

16-09-2011, 08:27 PM

sonkax

17-09-2011, 10:13 AM

if i remember correctly there is a kit from carrier which includes latest black hoses fittings oil sep l\pswitch and new service fittings the info for comp pulley reduction should be found by contacting autoclimate shrewsbury

i don't about the kit but we have the new hoses and fittings, i'll change the hp hose only as this is the one that's blown, and it's for the first time anyone has mentioned the lp switch.