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install monkey
29-08-2011, 02:11 PM
A PROPOSED new tax could have a huge impact on the cost of refrigerants in Australia according to local air conditioning and refrigeration wholesaler Heatcraft. The plan which has been welcomed by the UK PM David Cameron, could see taxes in Australia of up to AUS$100/kg (63/kg) added to the price of HFCs.

Under a raft of measures, Australia's Climate Change Plan, announced on July 10 includes a carbon pricing mechanism covering four of the six greenhouse gases included under the Kyoto Protocol, with HFCs and sulphur hexafluoride facing an equivalent carbon price, which will be applied through existing synthetic greenhouse gas legislation.

High GWP gases will not be included in the carbon pricing mechanism but will be subject to an equivalent carbon price using existing import and manufacture levies under Australia's Ozone Protection and Synthetic Greenhouse Gas Management legislation. Levies will be adjusted annually to reflect the prevailing carbon price.

The decision has met with strong opposition in Australia where the levy on HFCs would have a significant impact on prices. According to Heatcraft, The Climate Change Plan, which provides fixed carbon prices for the first three years of the scheme beginning in July 2012, could see a tax of AUS$98.09 (£63/kg) being added to a high GWP refrigerant like R404A in 2014. At current prices, the supermarkets' favoured refrigerant will cost in excess of AUS$115/kg (£73/kg) at current prices.

The levy, based on the refrigerant's GWP, would also add AUS$32.43/kg (£21/kg) to the price of R134a in 2012, rising to AUS$35.18 in July 2014. R410A would receive a carbon price of AUS$47.38 in July 2012, rising to AUS$52.32 (£33) in 2014.

David Cameron has congratulated his opposite number in Australia, Julia Gillard, reportedly describing the Climate Change Plan as a "bold step'. In a letter to the Australian prime minister, Cameron said that Ms Gillard's government's climate change announcement sent a "strong and clear signal that Australia is determined to make its contribution to address this challenge".

The Australian Government's hopes its initiative will help the country to cut carbon pollution by 159 million tonnes a year by 2020.
source acr news
:p

chillerman2006
29-08-2011, 03:27 PM
A PROPOSED new tax could have a huge impact on the cost of refrigerants in Australia according to local air conditioning and refrigeration wholesaler Heatcraft. The plan which has been welcomed by the UK PM David Cameron, could see taxes in Australia of up to AUS$100/kg (63/kg) added to the price of HFCs.


:off topic:[RANT]Cameron & British government with a hand in it .....no surprise there....they have been robbing me for a price of fags for over twenty years & when I went for my last op I was told new government policy Quit smoking or we are not operating....WTF...they are happy to take my taxes on me fags, I should get Priority treatment, Fookers the lot of them[RANT]:off topic:

install monkey
29-08-2011, 03:39 PM
i dont think u can get willy extensions on the nhs!! therse a job for u exporting gas to oz
:off topic:[RANT]Cameron & British government with a hand in it .....no surprise there....they have been robbing me for a price of fags for over twenty years & when I went for my last op I was told new government policy Quit smoking or we are not operating....WTF...they are happy to take my taxes on me fags, I should get Priority treatment, Fookers the lot of them[RANT]:off topic:

chillerman2006
29-08-2011, 03:42 PM
i dont think u can get willy extensions on the nhs!!

Funny you should that am on facebook at the same time as here & was explaining to the girls am like a 3 legged man when I stand up....so am ok there !

install monkey
29-08-2011, 03:46 PM
tripod, or mr pogo!! do you want to edit ur last post to hot women instead of girls!haha-im on facebook too,checking up when the cake muncher returns, got to show some domesticated properties,like spray a bit of polish in the lounge,move the hoover hide the pots etc otherwise ill be watching soaps all night!!!
Funny you should that am on facebook at the same time as here & was explaining to the girls am like a 3 legged man when I stand up....so am ok there !

chillerman2006
29-08-2011, 05:15 PM
tripod, or mr pogo!! do you want to edit ur last post to hot women instead of girls!haha-im on facebook too,checking up when the cake muncher returns, got to show some domesticated properties,like spray a bit of polish in the lounge,move the hoover hide the pots etc otherwise ill be watching soaps all night!!!

Nah ! will leave it as is,(under 35 = hot girls / plus 35 = not so tempting) I've had so many offers to cum & measure up, don't know who should cum 1st ! :eek:

MikeHolm
29-08-2011, 05:37 PM
Don't you guys ever have to work? I get on the computer for 5 min during the work day and you've got 100 posts between you, cheeessee. No time for facebook, never been on it in me life. Under 35 girls (women) are still looking for capt studly who also has the bucks so she can pop out mini-me. No thanks, one with my tripod is enough...

chillerman2006
29-08-2011, 05:44 PM
Don't you guys ever have to work? I get on the computer for 5 min during the work day and you've got 100 posts between you, cheeessee. No time for facebook, never been on it in me life. Under 35 girls (women) are still looking for capt studly who also has the bucks so she can pop out mini-me. No thanks, one with my tripod is enough...

Argh ! Mike, you gotta find time for facebook mate, all the little girlies (not so little now) from school, all pop up telling you how much they fancied a bit but were too shy back then, so you just arrange a remembrance drink but only invite them one at a time ! Lost count but can say if I was notching bed posts they would need regular replacement, especially with fishing as well, I'll send you the link there are some lovelies over your side of the pond & it's free !

install monkey
29-08-2011, 08:25 PM
whooaahh there,i work occasionally,just not for another 10hrs yet,so potentially 4-5 hrs of chirping crap- ive got an old schoolmate(bird) from school-thought by now she'd be banging a footballer and driving a rangerover sport!(posh ute)
but no,she still lives 9 mile away and single-not telling cm which town-haha, 20yr ago id chew me arm off to have a dabble-so facebook i salute u for bringing minge to the masses!!haha

simon@parker
29-08-2011, 11:02 PM
whooaahh there,i work occasionally,just not for another 10hrs yet,so potentially 4-5 hrs of chirping crap- ive got an old schoolmate(bird) from school-thought by now she'd be banging a footballer and driving a rangerover sport!(posh ute)
but no,she still lives 9 mile away and single-not telling cm which town-haha, 20yr ago id chew me arm off to have a dabble-so facebook i salute u for bringing minge to the masses!!haha
technically this is work as everything gettin more computerized so i am staying ahead of the curve lmao facebooks great ya chat to 10 women in pub on sat nite ya add em all as friends take one out a night for next 2 weeks then do it all again perfection and you get to take piss out of there posts and see if they have cute friends it has no down side if they get high maint you delete and block them roflmfao and technically its work again :) customer relations its the way forward :) lol

chillerman2006
29-08-2011, 11:06 PM
technically this is work as everything gettin more computerized so i am staying ahead of the curve lmao facebooks great ya chat to 10 women in pub on sat nite ya add em all as friends take one out a night for next 2 weeks then do it all again perfection and you get to take piss out of there posts and see if they have cute friends it has no down side if they get high maint you delete and block them roflmfao and technically its work again :) customer relations its the way forward :) lol

Thats the way to do it, bed post notching at its best :D

install monkey
29-08-2011, 11:08 PM
do u go with the sympathy **** routine- tell em u have 6mths to live and ur a virgin!! just dont bump into em after 12mth.

chillerman2006
29-08-2011, 11:10 PM
Argh ! now we know installs at it as well - women love a sob story - they just can't resist !
;)

install monkey
29-08-2011, 11:13 PM
i normally blow it then by chirping about daikin fault codes and setting mode 41 haha
Argh ! now we know installs at it as well - women love a sob story - they just can't resist !
;)

chilliwilly
29-08-2011, 11:20 PM
A PROPOSED new tax could have a huge impact on the cost of refrigerants in Australia according to local air conditioning and refrigeration wholesaler Heatcraft. The plan which has been welcomed by the UK PM David Cameron, could see taxes in Australia of up to AUS$100/kg (63/kg) added to the price of HFCs.

Under a raft of measures, Australia's Climate Change Plan, announced on July 10 includes a carbon pricing mechanism covering four of the six greenhouse gases included under the Kyoto Protocol, with HFCs and sulphur hexafluoride facing an equivalent carbon price, which will be applied through existing synthetic greenhouse gas legislation.

High GWP gases will not be included in the carbon pricing mechanism but will be subject to an equivalent carbon price using existing import and manufacture levies under Australia's Ozone Protection and Synthetic Greenhouse Gas Management legislation. Levies will be adjusted annually to reflect the prevailing carbon price.

The decision has met with strong opposition in Australia where the levy on HFCs would have a significant impact on prices. According to Heatcraft, The Climate Change Plan, which provides fixed carbon prices for the first three years of the scheme beginning in July 2012, could see a tax of AUS$98.09 (£63/kg) being added to a high GWP refrigerant like R404A in 2014. At current prices, the supermarkets' favoured refrigerant will cost in excess of AUS$115/kg (£73/kg) at current prices.

The levy, based on the refrigerant's GWP, would also add AUS$32.43/kg (£21/kg) to the price of R134a in 2012, rising to AUS$35.18 in July 2014. R410A would receive a carbon price of AUS$47.38 in July 2012, rising to AUS$52.32 (£33) in 2014.

David Cameron has congratulated his opposite number in Australia, Julia Gillard, reportedly describing the Climate Change Plan as a "bold step'. In a letter to the Australian prime minister, Cameron said that Ms Gillard's government's climate change announcement sent a "strong and clear signal that Australia is determined to make its contribution to address this challenge".

The Australian Government's hopes its initiative will help the country to cut carbon pollution by 159 million tonnes a year by 2020.
source acr news
:p

OK enough about piping, back to the main thread.

PHARKINEHW JOHN! where will it end?

mikeref
29-08-2011, 11:29 PM
Yeh, I.M. Read this info yesterday about price increase :(. No surprise though, about the carbon tax from our PM. ( Her name is pronounced JU-LIAR, and we cannot wait for next election.) Email i got from Heatcraft said prices were to ramp up around september 26th. FYI: Australia contributes,( i might have one too many zero's here), point 00004% to global carbon emissions. So, chew on that and see how bad it tastes.;)..Mike.

chillerman2006
30-08-2011, 12:14 AM
Yeh, I.M. Read this info yesterday about price increase :(. No surprise though, about the carbon tax from our PM. ( Her name is pronounced JU-LIAR, and we cannot wait for next election.) Email i got from Heatcraft said prices were to ramp up around september 26th. FYI: Australia contributes,( i might have one too many zero's here), point 00004% to global carbon emissions. So, chew on that and see how bad it tastes.;)..Mike.

Hi Mike

with all your Gas Guzzlers & a/c in nearly every home you sure thats not 40% :eek:

Magoo
30-08-2011, 02:22 AM
All the same shyte will happen here in NZ as well. And India and China are exempt due to be being improving economies, chhhheeez give me strength. Another global economy tax grab. Dumbing down factor. GRUMP.
Ammonia ammonia ammonia is all I can say

mikeref
30-08-2011, 03:53 AM
All the same shyte will happen here in NZ as well. And India and China are exempt due to be being improving economies, chhhheeez give me strength. Another global economy tax grab. Dumbing down factor. GRUMP.
Ammonia ammonia ammonia is all I can say
Don't speak too loudly about ammonia Magoo. I'm sure the powers to be will be figuring a way to get more revenue from that industry ;). Might be something like: since ammonia and natural gas is used as refrigerants, than... we can put them in the same category as conventional refrigerants, and while we're at it, lets sponge off CO2, after all, CO2 is a pollutant!!.. ( according to hot heads in Canberra):rolleyes:.

Magoo
30-08-2011, 04:30 AM
Hi again MIke.
nothing would surprise me these days, I have seen it all, ammonia was a waste product from the gas industry, they basically gave it away to get rid of it. Now they charge like a wounded bull and add chem courier charges , bottle rentals. CHHHHeeez redge, add they say anhydrous/water free., yeah right. NOT.

MikeHolm
04-01-2012, 03:34 AM
http://www.ted.com/talks/al_gore_s_new_thinking_on_the_climate_crisis.html
http://www.ted.com/talks/lang/en/amory_lovins_on_winning_the_oil_endgame.html

I don't know if any of you listen to the TED talks on the web but here are 2 talks that outline the urgency from the discussion above.

Emmett
04-01-2012, 07:19 PM
http://www.ted.com/talks/al_gore_s_new_thinking_on_the_climate_crisis.html
http://www.ted.com/talks/lang/en/amory_lovins_on_winning_the_oil_endgame.html

I don't know if any of you listen to the TED talks on the web but here are 2 talks that outline the urgency from the discussion above.

Mike, Mike, Mike silly Al has you hook line and sinker, all the while he nabs the cash and jetsets around the world on our dime.

a/c.nick
05-01-2012, 12:16 AM
as magoo said nz govt will jump on that band wagon to make a quick buck

MikeHolm
05-01-2012, 12:31 AM
Mike, Mike, Mike silly Al has you hook line and sinker, all the while he nabs the cash and jetsets around the world on our dime.

well, fortunately there is more evidence to support Al than the other way around. I just know that when the excrement hits the turboprop I will not be the one who says "I had no idea"....or "huh..what just happened".

Did you even give it a chance and watch it?

MikeHolm
05-01-2012, 12:35 AM
as magoo said nz govt will jump on that band wagon to make a quick buck

The real kicker in all this, is, like the old saying "you can pay me now...or you can pay me double later". It doesn't matter if it is man made or not. It is happening and if you don't spend a buck to fix it now it will cost you 2 bucks tomorrow. Your choice.

chilliwilly
05-01-2012, 01:53 AM
I wonder how ancient civilistations taxed society for the glaciers melting that in turn caused the Equator to have a wider corridor. That also in turn led to it supporting a greater eco system and allowing life to flourish further North and South?

Maybe they just accepted it then learned about chemistry hundreds of years later and detected pollution in the atmosphere. Instead of blaming volcanoe gods for being angry and taking out their wrath by errupting. Then decided to bring in the clean air acts and the like to deal with the obvious problems. But then put themselves out of a job, and so recorded their theories inside a fish tank inside ideal laboratory conditions. Then claim and try to prove that their was another problem in consuming the same resources that was causing the air temperature to warm up and melt the glaciers?


Then with the help of pressure groups they eventually got the backing of major governments to create a new industry called greenwash. That in turn got other countries to agree to complying with it, and then passed on the cost of complying with it onto the industries already associated with it. Creating increased revenues for the governments, and a longer working day for the companies that are being blamed for this temperature increase. And costing the end user, which is the customer and the taxpayer, much more to continue to heat their homes, turn on their lights, and having to drive further to work than they had to do 30 years ago.

Chemists invent and discover chemicals that eventually other chemists copy or may have discovered them before, chemists then invent other chemicals that other chemists can't copy for a while, or claim any other chemist already using them, has copied them and therefore should discontinue using them, then when they can copy them, governments bring in acts to stop them copying them by declaring that chemical obsolete and harmful to the environment. But if that said government haven't signed any agreements, it continues to be copied and used.

MikeHolm
05-01-2012, 01:59 AM
I wonder how ancient civilistations taxed society for the glaciers melting and in turn caused the Equator to have a wider corridor. That in turn led to it supporting a greater eco system and allowing life to flourish further North and South?

Doubt they would have noticed. They didn't move far from home and besides, it took generations for any kind of change to happen then. Only a few million people then on the planet vs almost 7 billion now....

The Viking
05-01-2012, 02:04 AM
I wonder how ancient civilistations taxed society for the glaciers melting and in turn caused the Equator to have a wider corridor. That in turn led to it supporting a greater eco system and allowing life to flourish further North and South?

What about before then?
Back when our ancestors could walk from UK to mainland Europe without even getting wet. Back then when the winters got longer and that thick ice blanket grew and moved south...
Tax if you didn't burn some ozone depleting fuel or added to the greenhouse effect?

:cool:

The Viking
05-01-2012, 02:06 AM
Only a few million people then on the planet vs almost 7 billion now....

Hmmm,
I think you are on to something there.

BTW, I thought we passed that magical 7th billion back in december?

MikeHolm
05-01-2012, 02:06 AM
Like I said, if Mother Nature does it on her own, who am I to argue. But if we do it (as I believe we do and there is tonnes of evidence) then I have a problem with it, even though I am as much to blame as anyone.

MikeHolm
05-01-2012, 02:08 AM
Hmmm,
I think you are on to something there.

BTW, I thought we passed that magical 7th billion back in december?

You may be right. A quick look at the interweb gave me that number. It might be old.

The Viking
05-01-2012, 02:18 AM
We were both wrong,

It was back in October.


A baby just born today at 12pm at El Fasher Women's Hospital (North Darfur, Sudan).United Nations marked the world's population reaching 7 billion today 31 October. United Nations Secretary General Ban Ki-moon said in his message: "Some say our planet is over populated"

MikeHolm
05-01-2012, 02:20 AM
Time flies LOL.......and i believe what some say

Emmett
05-01-2012, 02:05 PM
The real kicker in all this, is, like the old saying "you can pay me now...or you can pay me double later". It doesn't matter if it is man made or not. It is happening and if you don't spend a buck to fix it now it will cost you 2 bucks tomorrow. Your choice.
Hold the phone, you cant be serious if it is not man made then why pay silly Al and corrupt governments across the globe, why waste time energy and money chasing your tail. If it is mothernature how will you fix her?

MikeHolm
05-01-2012, 02:16 PM
If it is Mother nature, I can't fix it nor should I try. The problem is that there are no catastrophic changes, such as big meteors or volcanoes to blame on their own.

The point is, and if you listened to his talk you would have heard him state the percentage of scientists that agree that it is man made. It is pretty darn high so to me there is absolutely no doubt that we, as a species, are to blame. And I am in good company.

Ask the insurance companies if claims due to nature are up. They have said that they are and that in recorded history there has never been changes like we see these days....except by meteor.

Big Al, by the way, doesn't get paid by you and me.

Humans are not planners...we are crisis managers. We historically refuse to see the obvious until it hits us on the head. One day I will make a list. It will be very long.

Emmett
05-01-2012, 05:12 PM
If it is Mother nature, I can't fix it nor should I try. The problem is that there are no catastrophic changes, such as big meteors or volcanoes to blame on their own.

The point is, and if you listened to his talk you would have heard him state the percentage of scientists that agree that it is man made. It is pretty darn high so to me there is absolutely no doubt that we, as a species, are to blame. And I am in good company.

Ask the insurance companies if claims due to nature are up. They have said that they are and that in recorded history there has never been changes like we see these days....except by meteor.

Big Al, by the way, doesn't get paid by you and me.

Humans are not planners...we are crisis managers. We historically refuse to see the obvious until it hits us on the head. One day I will make a list. It will be very long.

speak for yourself, as a citizen of the united states I pay taxes silly Al collects many benefits today from his role in our government furthermore silly Al runs around the world speaking about global warming, the tax etc you pay on ***** supports the events he is payed to come and speak at. he has a vested interest in blaming humans, he has a company that sells carbon credits to industry the cost of which is passed on to us the consumer.

A scientist with a D average is still a scientist and as humans they are subject to being influenced, but you and I have been down this road already.

a/c.nick
05-01-2012, 09:21 PM
we can all do our part, but paying someone else to do it for us is wrong!
charging more money wont stop people from using it look at tobacco and alcohol

MikeHolm
05-01-2012, 10:07 PM
Actually, you can credit high taxes for the reduction in smoking, to some extent. Alcohol, I can't say as I don't know enough.

MikeHolm
05-01-2012, 10:10 PM
speak for yourself, as a citizen of the united states I pay taxes silly Al collects many benefits today from his role in our government furthermore silly Al runs around the world speaking about global warming, the tax etc you pay on ***** supports the events he is payed to come and speak at. he has a vested interest in blaming humans, he has a company that sells carbon credits to industry the cost of which is passed on to us the consumer.



A scientist with a D average is still a scientist and as humans they are subject to being influenced, but you and I have been down this road already.

Does that mean that if I have a company that sells heat pumps for their efficiency and lack of fossil fuel burning, I am immoral or brainwashed because it is an artificially created industry? Does the same go for solar hot water?

chilliwilly
05-01-2012, 11:58 PM
Does that mean that if I have a company that sells heat pumps for their efficiency and lack of fossil fuel burning, I am immoral or brainwashed because it is an artificially created industry? Does the same go for solar hot water?

You would only sell such items over here if you could prove and guarantee the claim of them paying for themselves before they have stopped working or dropped to bits, or that they would indeed save the owner money. On the other hand if gullable folk allow themselves to be brainwashed with all the greenwash fanny, and that we all need to stop using fossil fuels and nuclear energy because we won't have a planet in the future. They would snatch your hand off, get into debt, force the closure of power stations, and then probably regret their descision even more so than if the global warming theory could be put into practice. Especially if the wind isn't blowing properly or the sun doesn't shine when its night time. And they wonder what the strange metalic rumbling sound is whilst their shiverring their bollocks off, then when the day breaks they will see that its actually the bollocks that has dropped off the brass monkey!

MikeHolm
06-01-2012, 12:07 AM
Interesting.....I have to do the same over here.... ( "prove and guarantee the claim of them paying for themselves before they have stopped working or dropped to bits, or that they would indeed save the owner money")

Most climate change people support nuclear energy, although they probably didn't 20 years ago. As for the wind not blowing and sun not shining, do a bit of research and you will see that these problems are being overcome. Also, PV, within a few years will be competitive with fossil fuels for power generation, so will wind power.

chilliwilly
06-01-2012, 12:52 AM
They PVs would have to be very competetive indeed to be able to work at night time, and they will have to make wind mills that generate electric when the wind doesn't blow and when its blowing too hard.

I know that you do that for a job as you said so in another thread, when I told you about the project that I consulted with my uncle for. I was offered a similiar job a few years back selling green renewable/free energy, as they were quite impressed about the amount that I knew about PV and and other forms of generators. But I knew when a potential customer would eventually ask me about the above, I knew it would be like a grocer selling magic beans to a savvy shopper.

I didn't feel honest about it and I didn't really beleive any of the claims on either green/free or economical ones. So I turned it down, and I took a job as an electromechanical service engineer. The only thing that concerns me is the low quality of the parts that I am sent to fit and the short warranties offered on them. It also concerns me that the same factories are constructing or making the components for the PV and windmills, probably to the same standard as some of the parts I fit.

MikeHolm
06-01-2012, 01:47 AM
That's the thing about the "alternative" energy technology. While no one doubts that coal or nuclear energy work (because it is here now), Some don't understand the roll PV and wind can play in the energy MIX. Germany has just announced that PV accounts for 3% of their entire grid. That is a huge amount of energy considering its size.

We have always had to live up to a standard that the other technologies never had to. For example, our output frequency and voltage must match the grid to a degree that the base load producers can't. A pure sine wave from a PV inverter is much cleaner than the grid we dump into.

We also have to meet very strict power output standards, typically no less than 80% over 25 years and most meet 90% over 25 years. This is not asked of any other power plant. PV and wind are not going to replace the base load stuff but it can be a substantial part of a "democratic" and more stable grid. Not working in nighttime or when there is no wind is, honestly, irrelevant because every kwh produced by wind or PV is one that doesn't need to be produced by the coal guys. The homeowner will always have power and using PV and wind just makes it cleaner.

I think you could have done well in the field because the important thing is not to mislead the customer which you don't appear to like doing. They need to know the benefits as well as the sour points. I'm not wealthy partly because I don't give them a load of BS.

I've been to a number of PV manufacturing companies and they are clean and high quality. They have to be or the reputation of the entire industry will suffer. You won't get the same reliability from your car.

chilliwilly
06-01-2012, 09:33 PM
[QUOTE=MikeHolm;249990]

We have always had to live up to a standard that the other technologies never had to. For example, our output frequency and voltage must match the grid to a degree that the base load producers can't. A pure sine wave from a PV inverter is much cleaner than the grid we dump into [QUOTE]

Its the load on the grid that makes it dirty, you could pump a pure symetrical waveform into it and it would soon be subjected to pitch and width variations making it noisey, the old CEGB had to guarantee 50 hz + or - 10%, and the regulating body that has replaced them still have to. Even the output from an online UPS eventually distorts when the components start to bottom out if the equivalent to overload settings have been altered for economy reasons (?).

I hope that PV and wind energy does improve but for economical reasons which I think myself is the only practical reason for having them. Because at the moment the only practical use I can see for the moment, is to assist the smoothing out of brownouts. But until I see practical evidence that they will pay for themselves long before they have fallen to bits, I won't be investing in them. But I wil help folk build what I help my uncle build.

I had heard that Asian communities were going for it by having PV panels installed on the roofs of their terrace houses (row houses), but they were doing it to try and set up as a generating business because of the over inflated claims. But their roofs are still covered in slates and not panels, as the rebates the public were promised have been slashed and the potential attraction has gone.

Just as a matter of interest, if a street of terrace houses were to purchase and install PV panels or windmills in their back gardens, and receive dividend returns for generating power. Would their household insurance cover any damage to them, or would they refuse a claim because they would be construed as business equipment and should thus have a such a policy?

And how robust are they, the water repellant coating that they have, must need reaplying at some point, I assume that they will have that coating. And how do they keep clean from oxide and the green film that you get from leafy areas that would increase obscurity? You only have to look at how dirty condensing units get at floor level and not just on rooftops.

Anyway Mike, I hope you can carryon selling them to make a living, but I don't think you would sell many in the UK due to the initial cost outlay and the over inflated claims. Plus the fact that there has been other types of companies in the UK that have sold and installed products boasting a 10+ year guarantee. Only for them to be bankrupt 18 months after their sales dropped due to the amount of recalls they were getting. Spending that kind of money when the government have already moved the goal posts, plus the experiences with bogus companies and their almost lifetime guarantees doesn’t make it sparkling.

MikeHolm
07-01-2012, 01:43 PM
You are partly right about the load on the grid that makes it dirty. The problem is, it you look at most major power producers (big nuc plants or coal, oil, gas) the output is not a clean sine wave. It still has 1-2% distortion. admittedly, when I was really involved in this it was 20 years ago and there was a lot of discussion to make sure that the new PV inverters would exceed the international standards. We compared outputs from different producers and the inverters, then, were much better than major producers.

Remember that inverters are not a "load", they are a power producer and have to meet a much tighter set of regs than a motor does and as such, it actually works to clean up the grid to some extent. The inverter is synchronous and must match the frequency. I think I mentioned above that the one in my house matches frequency to within 0.1hz.

The Chinese are the largest producers of PV panels in the world (5 years ago it was 4th) and most if its production is for domestic use. They don't have infrastructure so, in a land where there is one new coal power plant built each week, PV is necessary as is wind and thermal.

From a local pollution point of view, adding the solar thermal removed low level pollutants that would normally come from my water heater therefore doing my part ot reduce asthma levels . I don't run any gas during the summer except for my cook top. My PV is paying me a 16% return on my investment guaranteed for 20 years. I think that is a good enough idea of payback.

Prior to 7-8 years ago, most PV in canada was off grid systems. I have a few of these that are 20 years old and still going strong so there is lots of evidence of the longevity of the products. The makeup of the panel is 4mm tempered glass, a layer of EVA which is a thin clear sheet glue on the glass, then the cells are laid on the glue. Another layer of EVA is placed on the back side of the panels and than a layer of Dupont Tedlar, a protective film. The whole thing is baked under vacuum at 130-150C where any air is removed and it is hermetically sealed.
There is nothing that needs to be done to the panel unless you want to scrape snow off them in the winter. I have walked on 4x8 ft sheets of this tempered glass on a roof, supported only on the edges and never had a breakage.

The real goal of all these subsidies is society cost. Denmark started the wind revolution in the 70s because local coal power pollution was getting out of hand. Actuaries have put the cost of health care due to bad air from power production at anywhere from $0.05/kwh to $0.20/kwh depending on location. An ounce of prevention....bla, bla, bla.....

So, if, over 20-30 years you can replace all the dirty power production with clean power and the health care costs come down, where is the problem. It is worth subsidizing and industry in its initial stages until the price comes down, which it is doing, when there is a big net benefit to everyone.

And, there are always some bad apples in any system so expect bankruptcies just like any other businesses.

chilliwilly
09-01-2012, 02:43 AM
Yes I know what your saying but any pure waveform generated will soon distort when its connected to the grid, as it shifts in and out of peak demand, spikes, and brownouts, the frequency of the power station gennys will drop down as far as 10%. This will cause an extra load demand on the invertor causing it to shift the waveform to match the dominant frequency of the grid and to harmonise with it. That's if it is set up to do so, if it isn't then it will overheat and act like an extra load to the grid and cause premature failure of the driving components of the invertor. If it isn't set up to shift then it will (should) disconnect itself from the grid to protect itself, and just share the localalised load demand. There is absolutely no way a pv or a wind turbine no matter how collective will smooth out a spike or a brownout on the grid. Unless the primary function of them is for filtering and their set up like a UPS system.

Although I have seen this happen with fully online and redundant UPS systems that are undersized and have been adjusted to take an overload for longer periods than they're designed to. Or when they are in parrallel to the standby genny, when its online can eventually cause the same problem with harmonising the genny output causing an unecessary extra load on each other and distorting the output due to the capacity mismatch.

No matter how clean the secondary output waveform, it will soon become dirty when its connected to the primary waveform or another dominant waveform . A bit like feeding caviar to a pig whilst rolling in sh!t. I think it will be sometime before the claim of a cleaner grid and no need for distribution protection spikes and brownouts becomes fact.

a/c.nick
09-01-2012, 03:34 AM
my brain hurts lol

mikeref
09-01-2012, 05:14 AM
Some light reading regarding Solar panels..http://www.solardaily.com/reports/Affordable_Solar_Its_Closer_Than_You_Think_999.html

MikeHolm
09-01-2012, 01:00 PM
Yes I know what your saying but any pure waveform generated will soon distort when its connected to the grid, as it shifts in and out of peak demand, spikes, and brownouts, the frequency of the power station gennys will drop down as far as 10%. This will cause an extra load demand on the invertor causing it to shift the waveform to match the dominant frequency of the grid and to harmonise with it. That's if it is set up to do so, if it isn't then it will overheat and act like an extra load to the grid and cause premature failure of the driving components of the invertor. If it isn't set up to shift then it will (should) disconnect itself from the grid to protect itself, and just share the localalised load demand. There is absolutely no way a pv or a wind turbine no matter how collective will smooth out a spike or a brownout on the grid. Unless the primary function of them is for filtering and their set up like a UPS system.

Although I have seen this happen with fully online and redundant UPS systems that are undersized and have been adjusted to take an overload for longer periods than they're designed to. Or when they are in parrallel to the standby genny, when its online can eventually cause the same problem with harmonising the genny output causing an unecessary extra load on each other and distorting the output due to the capacity mismatch.

No matter how clean the secondary output waveform, it will soon become dirty when its connected to the primary waveform or another dominant waveform . A bit like feeding caviar to a pig whilst rolling in sh!t. I think it will be sometime before the claim of a cleaner grid and no need for distribution protection spikes and brownouts becomes fact.


I understand what you are saying. The inverter MUST follow the grid and it never becomes a load because if it doesn't produce grid quality power it shuts off. The UPS is whole different animal and I don't know enough about them to comment.

There are wind and solar technologies coming on stream that store the power over night or for days. Compressed air, large flywheels with air bearings etc. And production PV efficiencies have increased by 50% in the past decade. None of this would happen without massive investment.

The real problem is that we always look at it compared to the retail cost of power. we forget that someone, usually government, has bankrolled the install so that we can get a reasonable power cost. The PV owner must take that system and pay it off over the system lifespan. A big pill to swallow for some.

I will try to find a time based PV output to post. I have seen them but don't know if I can find a postable one.