Carters Widget Revealed!

[mad fridgie]

I have been teasing you guys with what maybe?? a potential way of increasing the net refrigeration effect of a refrigeration system. i would like to thank DesA and Chef for their input to date.
Basically, i have built a number of test riggs, with limited resources and knowledge. i have had a wide range of results from very good to the exact opposite. And very little or no repeatability.
before we get to technical in my mind the widget, is simple to make (low cost) for those who have the right machines (lathes ect), simple to install and commission. (But I could be wrong)
We do have to make a start and the best way is to ensure that we understand how the very basic system works.
I am looking for alternative opinions, so i will be asking the questions, in a method to build up how the widget works. (it is best not to guess what is coming next, but just to focus on the question being asked)
i would suggest that this will be a good method for those who are early in the trade to grasp the very fundementals of the refrigeration cycle (which in my opinion is now grossly overlooked in modern training)

[desA]

Great thread. Promises to be a very interesting one. Keep it coming.

[mad fridgie]

Starting with a blank page (do not think about previous threads, this will only mislead this part)

We have a normal simple refrigeration system (LT coldroom for example)

We are going to presume to keep it simple that there is no pressure drops, glide, heat gains or losses .

So we have high pressure liquid (from reciever) for ease at saturation but 100% liquid. It passes through the expansion valve into the evaporator. (no evap pressure drops)

So how do we determine the net refrigeration effect (how much cooling is taken from the coldroom)?

[desA]

Net refrigeration effect:

Q'evap = m'r*(hout-hin) = m'r*(1-x)*hfg@Te,sat

[mad fridgie]

Net refrigeration effect:

Q'evap = m'r*(hout-hin) = m'r*(1-x)*hfg@Te,sat

So for those who may not be use to scientific or maths terms what does this mean! keeping it simple!

[desA]

Net refrigeration effect:

Q'evap = m'r*(hout-hin) = m'r*(1-x)*hfg@Te,sat

Key :
m'r = refrigerant mass flowrate [kg/s]
hout = enthalpy of refrigerant leaving evaporator [J/kg]
hin = enthalpy of refrigerant entering evaporator [J/kg]
x = vapour fraction of 2-phase fluid [kg/kg]
hfg = latent heat of vapourisation at evaporator saturation pressure [J/kg]

Strictly, to manage the exit superheat in the evaporator:

Q'evap = m'r*(h'out-hin) = m'r*(1-x)*hfg@Te,sat + m'r*Cpv*SH

where:
h'out = enthalpy of refrigerant leaving evaporator - superheated vapour state [J/kg]
CPv = exit vapour specific heat [J/kg.K]
SH = superheat [K]

[mad fridgie]

OK, keeping it simple, if we had NO superheat at the exit of the evap, would the flash gas in the evap have any effect on the net cooling of the room. (energy only)

[desA]

OK, keeping it simple, if we had NO superheat at the exit of the evap, would the flash gas in the evap have any effect on the net cooling of the room. (energy only)

Yes.

Simply put, as flash gas is reduced, 'x' will reduce (ie. less vapour in incoming 2-phase fluid) - this will increase Q'evap (refrigeration effect). (A few simplifying assumptions in this, so far)

[mad fridgie]

Yes.

Simply put, as flash gas is reduced, 'x' will reduce (ie. less vapour in incoming 2-phase fluid) - this will increase Q'evap (refrigeration effect). (A few simplifying assumptions in this, so far)

Are you sure?

I will re word. Liquid is at fixed pressure and temp (saturated). It enters the expansion valve, expands (reduction in pressure) So just before it enters the evaporator we a % of vapour by mass (weight) and a % of liquid by mass.
If there in no pressure drop in the evap and no superheat at the exit of the evap, 100% by mass is all vapour at saturation leaving the evap.
Does the original flash gas (that entering the evap) have any benefit to the net cooling.?

We are looking at energy only, not effect on heat transfer co-efficients

[Peter_1]

Just noticed this one again... Interesting.

The flashgas is taken into account for calculation of the net refrigeration effect.
Will try to explain my vision: all the bubbles together present at the exit of the TXV have a certain mass at a certain enthalpy. During the pass through the evaporator, they will absorb heat, so the enthalpy will change and....

No, wrong Peter, twisting my brain again,..If it's already 100% gas and we add heat, then it becomes superheated. The bubbles are already at a complete gaseous phase, surrounded by liquid which still can absorb heat, So, the flashgas is already at the condition like we will find finally all the liquid on the right side of the saturated curve. Due to the fact that the flashgas is already 100% gas, it must be positioned on the right side of the curve.

What's Carters Widget, a little bit difficult for me to translate..what's widget anyway?

[Gary]

A widget is an undefined/unnamed mechanical device; a gadget; a thingamajig; a whatchamacallit. If you see something and you don't know what it's name is, you might call it a widgit.

[chillerman2006]

If it's already 100% gas and we add heat, then it becomes superheated.

The bubbles are already at a complete gaseous phase, surrounded by liquid which still can absorb heat,

So, the flashgas is already at the condition like we will find finally all the liquid on the right side of the saturated curve.

Due to the fact that the flashgas is already 100% gas, it must be positioned on the right side of the curve.



Question Gents, Please correct me,

What your saying Peter is, that the 2phases, will not follow their respective curves of the bell &

1. the liquid = saturated liquid
2' the vapour = superheated vapour

[Peter_1]

A widget is an undefined/unnamed mechanical device; a gadget; a thingamajig; a whatchamacallit. If you see something and you don't know what it's name is, you might call it a widgit.

And where's Carter coming from?

[Peter_1]

Question Gents, Please correct me,

What your saying Peter is, that the 2phases, will not follow their respective curves of the bell &

1. the liquid = saturated liquid
2' the vapour = superheated vapour

Once in the bell, both gas and liquid is saturated.
Now I will make a perhaps strange jump: isn't is possible that the gas in the mixture is movings straight to the right too its saturated point and not going vertical, starting from the throttling device?

[Gary]

And where's Carter coming from?

I'm guessing Carter = mad fridgie

[Tayters]

OK, keeping it simple, if we had NO superheat at the exit of the evap, would the flash gas in the evap have any effect on the net cooling of the room. (energy only)

Right time to jump in with both feet.

The flash gas is caused where the energy contained in the liquid refrigerant entering the TEV is used to lower the temperature of itself to get to the boiling point in the evaporator.

i.e. Te is -30*C, Tc 35*C subcooling 5K means as ref. enters the TEV at 30*C it has to drop temperature by 60K to boil. Ideally the temperature of liquid feed to the TEV would be as low as possible as this shifts the expansion line on a PE chart over to the left into the higher % region of liquid/vapor mix. If it was 100% that means the liquid at the TEV was already at -30*C. If it was you wouldn't really need a refrigerant circuit as you somehow had the means to get refrigerant at the same temperature as Te so you'd use that means instead.

So in answer the flash gas has no net effect in cooling the room. It only cools the refrigerant to the evaporators boiling point.

How does that sound?

Cheers,
Andy.

[chillerman2006]

A widget is an undefined/unnamed mechanical device; a gadget; a thingamajig; a whatchamacallit. If you see something and you don't know what it's name is, you might call it a widgit.


And where's Carter coming from?

The widget is the name often referred to as the little plastic ball in a can of draught, bitter, guiness etc,

Carter are a brand that uses the widget

R's chillerman

[chillerman2006]

Removed as so - not to confuse the thread - with another

[mad fridgie]

mad fridgie = carter.
I have to agree with Tayters (well written)
Only when we introduce superheat in the evap does the flash gas have any effect on the net cooling (energy only)
A very simple statement " the amount of liquid which is boiled in the evaporator determines the net cooling effect"
More liquid boiled more refrigeration, less refrigerant boiled less refrigeration.
Can we are agree on this very basic statement.

[mad fridgie]

The first few questions are not directly related to widget, just simple understand of how a refrigeration system works. We all need to agree on certain effects. They are not trick questions, just something we all always take for granted.
if I just stick the design out then we will get confused. It is coming!

[Tayters]

I have to agree with Tayters (well written)
Only when we introduce superheat in the evap does the flash gas have any effect on the net cooling (energy only)
A very simple statement " the amount of liquid which is boiled in the evaporator determines the net cooling effect"
More liquid boiled more refrigeration, less refrigerant boiled less refrigeration.
Can we are agree on this very basic statement.

Spank yer hairy crutch!

The bit in red, now I'm a bit lost.
Flash gas = expanding liquid in TEV lowering temp of refrigerant to Te
Superheat = heat energy absorbed when all liquid boiled off. Not as good at absorbing heat as it's sensible as opposed to latent.

How can superheat affect flash gas?
Surely flash gas should be kept to a minimum which is down to subcooling, superheat is due to how much boiling refrigerant is in the evaporator in the first place and becauseit comes after the flash gas part I can't see why it would affect it?

Andy.

[mad fridgie]

At the end of a normal evap, we now have the combination of the original flash gas produced and the vapour produced during boiling (load) If this combination is superheated in the evap (what is used to control the TEV) then the total mass must absorb energy from the room, so extra net cooling is created by the flash gas proportion and vapourised proportion "superheat" (words are not my fortie)

[mad fridgie]

Next question,
again keeping it simple.
We have the simplest of compressors suction and discharge. (fixed speed, fixed displacment)
We can maintain a constant outlet pressure
we have a suction pressure, and for ease at saturation ("O no that will f*** the comp)
This will give us a certain mass flow.
Again only looking at the compressor (not the system) How do we increase the mass flow through this compressor?
Not a trick question

[install monkey]

increased suction pressure?

[install monkey]

increase the frequency on the power input

[mad fridgie]

increased suction pressure?
Yes! Simple but important later

[mad fridgie]

So to clarify the above 2 questions 100% mass enters the compressor, 100% leaves the comp, 100% passes through the cond, 100% pass through the expansion device, 100% pass through the evap then back to the comp.

[install monkey]

Yes! Simple but important later

do i get a bonus point for a quick answer?? the suspense is killing me,can i buy 1 to tinker with??

[mad fridgie]

We are getting close.
Imagine if you can we have an intermediate pressure vessel (very much like an open flash economiser on a screw set)
High pressure liquid in, pressure drops, liquid at the bottom, vapour at the top.
For ease we will say that the pressure in mid way between the Saturated cond pressure and the Saturated Suction pressure.
Now Focusing on the liquid proportion "only" (the liquid which is leaveing the vessel) and we are talking about energy only, would the new liquid mass flow change the net refrigeration cooling

[mad fridgie]

do i get a bonus point for a quick answer?? the suspense is killing me,can i buy 1 to tinker with??

Very close to being revealed.

[cool runings]

.

Make the vapour Denser.



Oh and I agree with Tayters description of of liquid flashing off through the
expansion valve only to drop the temp of the refrigerant.

If the refrigerant is at a saturated state entering the valve and there is say
30 or 40 degs of temp drop in the refrigerant then you may loose as much as
40 to 50% of the quality of the refrigerant.

coolrunnings

.

[mad fridgie]

The vessel is part of Carters Widget

[chillerman2006]

We are getting close.
Imagine if you can we have an intermediate pressure vessel (very much like an open flash economiser on a screw set)
High pressure liquid in, pressure drops, liquid at the bottom, vapour at the top.
For ease we will say that the pressure in mid way between the Saturated cond pressure and the Saturated Suction pressure.
Now Focusing on the liquid proportion "only" (the liquid which is leaveing the vessel) and we are talking about energy only, would the new liquid mass flow change the net refrigeration cooling

If we have pure liquid, mass flow will increase

Mass has increased with the removal of vapour ???

Increaseing net refrigeration efficiency (cooling)

[mikeref]

Drop the liquid pressure and temperature, syphon off the vapour to suction line to maintain low superheated or near nil superheated vapour to compressor for maximum volumetric efficiency and less overall energy wasted in compressing to higher discharge pressure. In return, the lowered liquid pressure, but more important, the lower liquid temperature, without any vapour, and maintaining constant pressure entering evaporator, uses the least amount of energy of itself and allows increased performance through evap coil, so long as rifled tubing is employed.. Now correct me as my neck is firmly wedged on the chopping block and some masked man with a large axe is standing over me.

[mad fridgie]

Well good input from both,
Infact if we just look at the "liquid part only", as determined in the first question, the net refrigeration remains the same, as the flash gas has no effect on the net cooling ( to keep it simple we are basing all observations when the refrigeratant is at saturation)

[chillerman2006]

Drop the liquid pressure and temperature, syphon off the vapour to suction line to maintain low superheated or near nil superheated vapour to compressor for maximum volumetric efficiency and less overall energy wasted in compressing to higher discharge pressure. In return, the lowered liquid pressure, but more important, the lower liquid temperature, without any vapour, and maintaining constant pressure entering evaporator, uses the least amount of energy of itself and allows increased performance through evap coil, so long as rifled tubing is employed.. Now correct me as my neck is firmly wedged on the chopping block and some masked man with a large axe is standing over me.

You've not just answered this question you have answered the next few coming up :D

[mad fridgie]

Now The vapour side of the vessel?
Is this vapour at a higher or lower pressure than that at the evap outlet. (and what would its properties be chef's question)

[mad fridgie]

You've not just answered this question you have answered the next few coming up :D
Even though his asumbtions maybe correct, not the widget method. This net refrigeration capacity could increase a little but not a lot

[chillerman2006]

Now The vapour side of the vessel?
Is this vapour at a higher or lower pressure than that at the evap outlet. (and what would its properties be chef's question)

Higher pressure

Pure Vapour

[mad fridgie]

We are just about here.

Do you know what, a venturi, jet compressor, ejector or condell mover is?

basically a device that has a motive force (a high(er) pressure feed), a suction port (lowest pressure) and an outlet pressure (which is the sum of the motive and suction mass streams) medium pressure

[chillerman2006]

We are just about here.

Do you know what, a venturi, jet compressor, ejector or condell mover is?

basically a device that has a motive force (a high(er) pressure feed), a suction port (lowest pressure) and an outlet pressure (which is the sum of the motive and suction mass streams) medium pressure

I know how a ram air jet compressor works,

[mad fridgie]

The vapour from the vessel becomes the motive force (highest pressure)
The vapour exiting the evaporator enters the suction port (lowest pressure)
The combined flow leave the devices and enters the compressor.(medium pressure)

effectivly we have a 2 stage compression system.

The suction of the compressor would be higher than if it came just from the suction.

The compressor mass flow would increase (higher inlet pressure)

So the total system mass flow would increase, including increased liquid mass flow through the evaporator.

Carter Widget (simplified)

[mikeref]

O.k. Stay of execution for now. Saturated vapour but not to the point of liquid to compressor. Has to be higher pressure than evap. outlet so it can be throttled down. Seperate line supplied to compressor?

[mad fridgie]

O.k. Stay of execution for now. Saturated vapour but not to the point of liquid to compressor. Has to be higher pressure than evap. outlet so it can be throttled down. Seperate line supplied to compressor?

No it goes through a device like a "venturi" for ease of desription and mixes together.

Ok another way of looking at.

You have 2 closed buckets, each has the same refrigerant in it, but at 2 completly different pressures/temperatures (saturation) High and Low. If there was a pipe between the 2 buckets and valve. If we opened the valve what would happen to the pressures inside the 2 buckets?

[chillerman2006]

So (if I am understanding this correctl) the mass flow is increased to the widget by removing the vapour (same as push/pull recovery of a system)

The increase in mass increases the compressors mass flow rate

Which in turn increases system mass flow rate

????????

[mikeref]

Have to equalise, high to low and initially the higher pressure bucket would turn cooler till equalisation established.

[mikeref]

Damn, C.m. are you connected to IBM, or on speed?

[mad fridgie]

So (if I am understanding this correctl) the mass flow is increased to the widget by removing the vapour (same as push/pull recovery of a system)

The increase in mass increases the compressors mass flow rate

Which in turn increases system mass flow rate

????????

Yes basically, but it is a "non steady state" system to start (it does not happen instantly) until it reaches equalibrium, and is a circular calculation (no start or end), which does make hard to understand.

[mad fridgie]

Try this very basic device.

A piece of 7/8 pipe 6' long, stick your oxy/act tip in on end (middlish if possible) leave this end still open to the air, turn on oxygen (really you should use nitrogen to be safe) but it is the tip that is important. (motive force)
What you should see is that air is pulled into the pipe at one end (suction) and quite alot flow coming out of the other end. ( alot more flow that just the oxygen flowing from the tip)

[MikeHolm]

Damn, C.m. are you connected to IBM, or on speed?

Mozilla 6, sssssshhhhhh, im trying to learn

[mikeref]

Mozilla 6, sssssshhhhhh, im trying to learn
O.K. Zip! mouth closed, eyes glued. ;).

[chillerman2006]

Damn, C.m. are you connected to IBM, or on speed?

Evening Mike

No, Just I have been hanging onto MF's every last word for days now:)


Yes basically, but it is a "non steady state" system to start (it does not happen instantly) until it reaches equalibrium, and is a circular calculation (no start or end), which does make hard to understand.

If I am following this part correctly, you need to wait for the system to settle (balance out/equalibrium) to achieve maximum gains in efficiency/flow rates & a constantly changing load(evaporater), de-stabilises the performance of the widget, hence further research & developent is required to fine tune performance. ???

[MikeHolm]

This is a great suspense novel. Too bad i'm a 32 bit guy in a 64 bit world.

[MikeHolm]

We used to install one pipe heating systems with a venturi on the return up to the mains pipe. There was a good amount of suction on the branch but the flow rate before the first tee equalled tthat after the second tee (venturi). It was an equalized loop (pressure)

[mad fridgie]

Evening Mike

No, Just I have been hanging onto MF's every last word for days now:)



If I am following this part correctly, you need to wait for the system to settle (balance out/equalibrium) to achieve maximum gains in efficiency/flow rates & a constantly changing load(evaporater), de-stabilises the performance of the widget, hence further research & developent is required to fine tune performance. ???

I am no specalist in venturi or the like ( i know nothing about them) only possible application. The question then comes down to what would the actual properties be of the outlet of the widget (The inlet to the compressor), When we move away from perfect design (which as we all know happens on every system) what then would be the effects on the system.
there are other possible beneifts as well. (or maybe)

[chillerman2006]

Try this very basic device.

A piece of 7/8 pipe 6' long, stick your oxy/act tip in on end (middlish if possible) leave this end still open to the air, turn on oxygen (really you should use nitrogen to be safe) but it is the tip that is important. (motive force)
What you should see is that air is pulled into the pipe at one end (suction) and quite alot flow coming out of the other end. ( alot more flow that just the oxygen flowing from the tip)

Similar to how the oil is returned from the evaporator in a flooded phe system, high pressure vapour is driven down a pipe that is connected to the oil pipe and as it flows it pulls the oil into the vapour and the mixed vapour/oil then returns to the compressor/or oil reservoir

???

[MikeHolm]

Sorry to cut in Terry, go on.

[mad fridgie]

Similar to how the oil is returned from the evaporator in a flooded phe system, high pressure vapour is driven down a pipe that is connected to the oil pipe and as it flows it pulls the oil into the vapour and the mixed vapour/oil then returns to the compressor/or oil reservoir

???
Basically "yes".

I am the first to know my limitions, and I am at this point now.
I have been talking to a number of true boffins (profs ect) all think is has the potential.

[mad fridgie]

Sorry to cut in Terry, go on.

Absolutly no problem mike.

[mad fridgie]

There must be a flaw in my methodology. Surely others must have looked at this simple system!

[chillerman2006]

If I am following this part correctly, you need to wait for the system to settle (balance out/equalibrium) to achieve maximum gains in efficiency/flow rates & a constantly changing load(evaporater), de-stabilises the performance of the widget, hence further research & developent is required to fine tune performance. ???


I am no specalist in venturi or the like ( i know nothing about them) only possible application. The question then comes down to what would the actual properties be of the outlet of the widget (The inlet to the compressor), When we move away from perfect design (which as we all know happens on every system) what then would be the effects on the system.
there are other possible beneifts as well. (or maybe)

We need a clear feed of liquid coming from the condensor (at start up & fluctuating load this is not available) ???

If we start pulling vapour before we have this then we can slow the flow rather than increase it ???

[chillerman2006]

If I am following this part correctly, you need to wait for the system to settle (balance out/equalibrium) to achieve maximum gains in efficiency/flow rates & a constantly changing load(evaporater), de-stabilises the performance of the widget, hence further research & developent is required to fine tune performance. ???


I am no specalist in venturi or the like ( i know nothing about them) only possible application. The question then comes down to what would the actual properties be of the outlet of the widget (The inlet to the compressor), When we move away from perfect design (which as we all know happens on every system) what then would be the effects on the system.
there are other possible beneifts as well. (or maybe)


We need a clear feed of liquid coming from the condensor (at start up & fluctuating load this is not available) ???

If we start pulling vapour before we have this then we can slow the flow rather than increase it ???

If correct the widget outlet to the compressor can be electronically controlled ???

[Magoo]

Hi MF.
watching with interest. Industrial techs should pick it straight away, but I won't comment.
After our last meeting, how did things pan out

magoo

[MikeHolm]

Since we are talking about high quality vapour and using that vapour to drive the venturi, and the suction or branch on the venturi will be at lower pressure, I am failing to see where the supply of vapour will come from to feed that branch (and therefore increase mass flow through the comp) IF you dont have a flash tank somewhere. Am I right is assuming that which will bypass the evap reduces the net refrig effect? I see some bypassing but don't know if the increased efficiency of the comp makes up for the loss in the evap.

Now my head is on the block

[MikeHolm]

By the time I get one response in you guys are five ahead

[chillerman2006]

Since we are talking about high quality vapour and using that vapour to drive the venturi, and the suction or branch on the venturi will be at lower pressure, I am failing to see where the supply of vapour will come from to feed that branch (and therefore increase mass flow through the comp) IF you dont have a flash tank somewhere. Am I right is assuming that which will bypass the evap reduces the net refrig effect? I see some bypassing but don't know if the increased efficiency of the comp makes up for the loss in the evap.

Now my head is on the block

That is my understanding too, both die together:D there is a fine line

[mad fridgie]

The idea is that the widget was to be quite simple (hence cheap) but yes could quite easily control with a sol valve and could also be made with proportinal control to keep optomised. (but we but the cart before the horse)
The very basic idea was the vessel was maintained at a constant pressure. (this makes sizeing the evap and expansion device easy) This gives us the oppotunity to allow the head pressure to fall, a lot lower that is presently classed as standard. ( so looking at the very big picture with lower head, we would get less flash gas, so the widget would not work as well, but we still maintain very high efficiency and system equalibrium) All the components could be produced as a single item, so installation would be very very similar to installing a suction accumulator with an internal liquid line heat exchanger. (Maybe with a removable nozzle orifice for different size systems, in a similar way we change the orifice size in an expansion valve)
I have but much thought and energy into this.

[MikeHolm]

That is my understanding too, both die together:D there is a fine line

You mean i said something that made sense?? will wonders never cease

[Gary]

Would it be similar to this?

http://www.denso-europe.com/Ejector-Cycle-Refrigeration-System--1014590000000001.aspx

[mad fridgie]

Since we are talking about high quality vapour and using that vapour to drive the venturi, and the suction or branch on the venturi will be at lower pressure, I am failing to see where the supply of vapour will come from to feed that branch (and therefore increase mass flow through the comp) IF you dont have a flash tank somewhere. Am I right is assuming that which will bypass the evap reduces the net refrig effect? I see some bypassing but don't know if the increased efficiency of the comp makes up for the loss in the evap.

Now my head is on the block

You need to read from the start (there is reason behind my madness, in the way i started the thread) Yes there is a flash tank, or I called a vessel.
It is at pressure in the middle between normal evap pressure and cond pressure.
It is positioned in the liquid line between the cond outlet anf the TEV (expansion device) inlet.
The flash gas in the vessel is something that would normally occur just after the expansion valve prior to evap inlet, and has in energy terms very little benefit to the refrigeration system. how ever we do have to pump it around the whole system.

[mad fridgie]

Would it be similar to this?

http://www.denso-europe.com/Ejector-Cycle-Refrigeration-System--1014590000000001.aspx

Not quite the same but I would say similar in some ways. thanks gedi master gary! (not seen that one)

[mad fridgie]

Would it be similar to this?

http://www.denso-europe.com/Ejector-Cycle-Refrigeration-System--1014590000000001.aspx

This does remind me a bit of the Philips ejector system used for DX over feed systems.
(very common on jester jenson plates sysems)

[MikeHolm]

I understand that it is not desireable to have flash prior to the evap so i can see removing it before the TEV so am I to understand that the amount that would be moved through the device is only that amount that would normally flash prematurely and not try to get more than usual?

again head on chopping block

[chillerman2006]

MF

I should have been more clear, I was agreeing, (with my limited understanding being) that the compressor has limited duty, and the more we take from the widget, the less can be taken from the evap/suction line ???

And my previous post ( if again I understand) if we start pulling vapour prior to a clear feed of liquid from the condensor, then would vapour be pulled through the condensor preventing/lowering the amount of refrigerant that is condensed ???

[Magoo]

Perhaps a compounded cycle with inter-cooler.
magoo

[chillerman2006]

Perhaps a compounded cycle with inter-cooler.
magoo

Good Afternoon Magoo,

I have tried googling, no clear description, for the lessor knowledgeable (me) could you explain how it works please

R's chillerman

[mad fridgie]

Mike first, yes we only take part of what would normally be produced in standard system. And practically has very little use (my first question) but in a normal system still has to be 100% transported around the whole system "energy in"
CM
The vapour leaving the widget (including the ejector) is combined with the flow from the evap. The vapour can only flow if there is sufficient flash gas coming from the condensor liquid, If for example the liquid was very highly sub cooled prior to the widget, then no flash would be produced in the vessel and very little flow would occur through the ejector. (the ejector has avery small hole, need good pressure to flow)

[mad fridgie]

Perhaps a compounded cycle with inter-cooler.
magoo

Effectively the widget is that (without the inter cooler)

also known as two stage (in one compression chamber, out of this one into a second compression chamber.)

[Magoo]

Hi Chillerman,
the low stage piston/s suck from a low load and discharge into a vessel [ intercooler ] that condenses partiallly, the resultant vapour becomes the suction of the high stage pistons, which discharges to final condenser, the partial liquid formed in intercooler is regengerated to supply low load topped from high stage liquid. [ jet valve area ]
A short cycle description, you have two levels of evaporation and two levels of condensing. easy with screws / piston ratios with recips.
magoo

[chillerman2006]

Mike first, yes we only take part of what would normally be produced in standard system. And practically has very little use (my first question) but in a normal system still has to be 100% transported around the whole system "energy in"
CM
The vapour leaving the widget (including the ejector) is combined with the flow from the evap. The vapour can only flow if there is sufficient flash gas coming from the condensor liquid, If for example the liquid was very highly sub cooled prior to the widget, then no flash would be produced in the vessel and very little flow would occur through the ejector. (the ejector has avery small hole, need good pressure to flow)

My mistake, this is not a design for a unit that employs subcooling, Got it cheers

[chillerman2006]

Hi Chillerman,
the low stage piston/s suck from a low load and discharge into a vessel [ intercooler ] that condenses partiallly, the resultant vapour becomes the suction of the high stage pistons, which discharges to final condenser, the partial liquid formed in intercooler is regengerated to supply low load topped from high stage liquid. [ jet valve area ]
A short cycle description, you have two levels of evaporation and two levels of condensing. easy with screws / piston ratios with recips.
magoo

Thanks Magoo

got it, I can understand that (had to re-read a few times though)

R's chillerman

[Magoo]

Hi MF.
very good and very clever, as in direct injection sub-cooling, a bit of a hand grenade with a loose pin though. But then again with stable loads would be very manageable in hindsight.
What happened with Mr T and Pete etc., after last conversation, good or hopeless.

magoo

[Magoo]

Hi again MF.
out of interest, are you using split circuit PHEs or other HXs.
magoo

[mad fridgie]

Hi again MF.
out of interest, are you using split circuit PHEs or other HXs.
magoo

I configure my own heat exchange selection, slightly different to how most do it.
I presume you are talking about multipass HXs, The flow regime does not seem right for my application.

[mad fridgie]

Hi MF.
What happened with Mr T and Pete etc., after last conversation, good or hopeless.

magoo

Sorted, and time to move on! No new Lotus for me!

[mikeref]

O.k. Mad. At the risk of a crash and burn probablity, there is another thought i have. Can there be a free energy effect,( minus mechanical losses) where one could use discharge pressure, or more likely liquid, while compressor is running to power a small turbine. My thought is.. the slave turbine in the suction line can increase suction pressure to compressor at the added benefit of reducing evaporator pressure, thus increasing evaporator efficiency? Seals will be a problem and so will driveshaft configuration. Increased pressure to compressor gives better efficiency on the low temp applications. So.. what do you say? Has this been debated before?.. Mike,( not the one sipping beverages on the beach :p).

[mad fridgie]

There is no crash or burn on this thread, (not on my watch)
The discharge pressure has to be produced by power, (how ever some have looked at using ejectors to produce higher than motive pressures, but this is beyond my what I know)
using liquid soley as a driver (very little benefit) this watt a low wattage pump can pump L/S versurs head.
using the liquid then expanding through a turbine may work (energy purpose only), very similar to gary's attachment.
A lot of work has been done on efficiency and using ejectors, but I "believe" using the widget method is original and somewhat more practical (I not attepting to get 100% better performance 100% of the time)
good thoughts.
Even though you have a concept you still need to prove possible performance. I have my method, which may be right or wrong, but I am wanting others appraoch to see if it could be a goer.

[Peter_1]

..
Only when we introduce superheat in the evap does the flash gas have any effect on the net cooling (energy only)
A very simple statement " the amount of liquid which is boiled in the evaporator determines the net cooling effect"
More liquid boiled more refrigeration, less refrigerant boiled less refrigeration.
Can we are agree on this very basic statement.
In your post 3, there was said saturated, so the flashgs doesn't contribute

[mad fridgie]

In your post 3, there was said saturated, so the flashgs doesn't contribute
Yes agree (this was to help other understand what happens in a real evap) sorry for the confusion

[desA]

Are you sure?

I will re word. Liquid is at fixed pressure and temp (saturated). It enters the expansion valve, expands (reduction in pressure) So just before it enters the evaporator we a % of vapour by mass (weight) and a % of liquid by mass.
If there in no pressure drop in the evap and no superheat at the exit of the evap, 100% by mass is all vapour at saturation leaving the evap.
Does the original flash gas (that entering the evap) have any benefit to the net cooling.?

We are looking at energy only, not effect on heat transfer co-efficients

If you split the flows as follows:
1. Vapour only (your 'flash gas') at m'fg;
2. Liquid only at m'l...
3. m'r = m'l + m'fg (total flow before split)

... then, if we know the pressure of each stream, we can locate the individual state points as follows:
1. Vapour - assume saturated vapour - located on right of bell;
2. Liquid - assume saturated liquid - located on left of bell.

If the fluids are mixed, then the mixture properties are constructed based on 'x', the vapour percentage in the mixture.

If the vapour is transported away, then only m'l goes towards the evaporator. The net refrigeration effect (assuming fully saturated liquid) is:

Q'evap = m'l*hfg

Where :
Q'evap = evaporator capacity [W]
m'l = liquid mass flowrate [kg/s]
hfg = latent heat of vapouraziation [J/kg]

So, the real amount of duty [W] managed by the evaporator will depend on how much liquid is actually going to it.

[Peter_1]

See that this thread was very busy during the night and noticed also it has been filled up to nearly 5 pages.Will make some time this evening to read was said.

[MikeHolm]

O.k. Mad. At the risk of a crash and burn probablity, there is another thought i have. Can there be a free energy effect,( minus mechanical losses) where one could use discharge pressure, or more likely liquid, while compressor is running to power a small turbine. My thought is.. the slave turbine in the suction line can increase suction pressure to compressor at the added benefit of reducing evaporator pressure, thus increasing evaporator efficiency? Seals will be a problem and so will driveshaft configuration. Increased pressure to compressor gives better efficiency on the low temp applications. So.. what do you say? Has this been debated before?.. Mike,( not the one sipping beverages on the beach :p).


Sir, the beach is not for me but the sailboat is;) and of course, so is the beverage sipping.

MF, Without a lot of pondering, I would think the venturi part of the widget will need to be on the suction line as the "motive force" would best come from higher velocity gas from the evap. There needs to be a certain differential to make the venturi work, typically 5:1 to 10:1 and there is an increased head loss incurring when the "motive force" or the straight line flow is restricted to create the suction through the branch.

[MikeHolm]

(one could use discharge pressure, or more likely liquid, while compressor is running to power a small turbine. My thought is.. the slave turbine in the suction line can increase suction pressure to compressor at the added benefit of reducing evaporator pressure, thus increasing evaporator efficiency? Seals will be a problem and so will driveshaft configuration. Increased pressure to compressor gives better efficiency on the low temp applications. So.. what do you say? Has this been debated before?.. Mike)

There are very low wattage circulators that are magnetically coupled so the seal issue is not a problem. Of course, they are typically in the range of 1-3L/m LIQUID flow and have head values of around 1-2m. I don't know if this helps with mikes pondering. Messed up the quotes above.

[mad fridgie]

Sir, the beach is not for me but the sailboat is;) and of course, so is the beverage sipping.

MF, Without a lot of pondering, I would think the venturi part of the widget will need to be on the suction line as the "motive force" would best come from higher velocity gas from the evap. There needs to be a certain differential to make the venturi work, typically 5:1 to 10:1 and there is an increased head loss incurring when the "motive force" or the straight line flow is restricted to create the suction through the branch.

It is not really a venturi,( I think), more like an air mover "condell" (or maybe not).

There is difference in the pressure.



This where true expertise in this field is required. ( and it aint me!)

Also you already have flow regime in the suction line (verses a dead head/static flow on say a normal venturi)

If you look on your copeland compressor program, pick R404a, pick a low evap temp and mid range cond temp, check duty,( note pressures) now just up the evap temp a bit and see what the new duty is, check the pressure difference. (you will be suprised) maybe

[mikeref]

Yeh, missed the velocity factor during my pondering :(.

[Segei]

I'm not an expert in venturi effect, but I have 2 concerns about this widget.
1. To create venturi, we need significant pressure difference between pressure in this vessel and suction pressure. This pressure difference will not be significant.
2. In verturi, main flow will suck secondary flow. As far as I know, main flow should be significantly greater than secondary flow. For example 10:1. Assume that flash gas is 20% of total gas flow. 80% of gas create by net refrigeration effect. It means that that 1 part of main flow will suck 4 parts of secondary flow. This will not happen.

[desA]

A thought:
1. Replace TXV with small rotational device;
2. Liquid flashes across rotational device (RD1) to desired LP;
3. Rotational device (RD1) drives a rotational device (RD2) placed in suction line.
4. RD2 'stuffs' flow into compressor.

[Gary]

I'm not an expert in venturi effect, but I have 2 concerns about this widget.
1. To create venturi, we need significant pressure difference between pressure in this vessel and suction pressure. This pressure difference will not be significant.
2. In verturi, main flow will suck secondary flow. As far as I know, main flow should be significantly greater than secondary flow. For example 10:1. Assume that flash gas is 20% of total gas flow. 80% of gas create by net refrigeration effect. It means that that 1 part of main flow will suck 4 parts of secondary flow. This will not happen.

I tend to agree with this assessment. In the Denco configuration, the full flow of the system is harnessed to provide the motive force. As i understand it, the Carter configuration attempts to use a small fraction of the flow for it's motive force... or possibly I misunderstand the workings of the Carter Widget. I'm thinking a flow diagram might be helpful.

[Segei]

Gary.
I agree that Denco configuration has greater pressure difference. However, volume of main flow is not greater than volume of secondary flow, because main flow has mixture of liquid and vapor and secondary flow has only vapor. I'm not sure that Denco configuration will work either.

[Gary]

By definition, the secondary flow is going to be a fraction of primary flow... the difference will come from flashing in the separator. The question is not will it work, but rather how well will it work?

[mad fridgie]

I'm not an expert in venturi effect, but I have 2 concerns about this widget.
1. To create venturi, we need significant pressure difference between pressure in this vessel and suction pressure. This pressure difference will not be significant.
2. In verturi, main flow will suck secondary flow. As far as I know, main flow should be significantly greater than secondary flow. For example 10:1. Assume that flash gas is 20% of total gas flow. 80% of gas create by net refrigeration effect. It means that that 1 part of main flow will suck 4 parts of secondary flow. This will not happen.

It is unlikely to be a venturi (as you know it) I have left this part open to what it actually is, Basically it is a Thermal Vapour Compresssor (TVR) or some form Condell effect mover. (these devices use less mass flow for the motive force as the driver).

Your are not really sucking, as this applies a stastic flow, as we know we have flow through the suction.

The first question has to be does it have the potential to work, and how to we prove what the results would be in a perfect world.
Secondly if the question is yes then what piece of equipment is required to achieve the results.

I have formulated my own calculations, and have built a test rigg(s) to test. Thats does not mean my method is correct, nor the parts chosen for the test rigg are even close to what is required.

[mad fridgie]

By definition, the secondary flow is going to be a fraction of primary flow... the difference will come from flashing in the separator. The question is not will it work, but rather how well will it work?

In this industry they do not use the terms primary and secondary, for that reason, "motive and suction" flow

How do we prove if it works? Then How can we make work?

[chillerman2006]

Morning MF

does it make a difference with suction flow, where the flash gas ends up ?

(Suction line or direct into compressor)

[mad fridgie]

7132

A very basic drawing of the widget configuration

[chillerman2006]

A very basic drawing of the widget configuration

Hello Mate,

Just spun it round

R's chillerman

[chillerman2006]

How do we prove if it works? Then How can we make work?

MF

I think you have with your drawing & the posts (unless I am missing something)

Your controlling condensor pressure

Your removing flash gas, improving mass to txv, improving evap efficiency

Your increasing suction pressure

Overall refrigeration efficiency has to go up ??? Surely

Now I can see it - I can not see any pitfalls (anyone agree ????)

R's chillerman

[mad fridgie]

It is some what more complicated in the theory, how ever I do not want show how may calculations have been achieved. I do not need some to check that i can add my apples calculation, when in fact what i should calculatting is bananas, in other words my method of determining efficiency/performance may well be flawed, and I do not want to influence, others thought patterns on what the result maybe.
The practical objective is to reduce the compressor displacment, increase COP.

[mad fridgie]

The pic is just a snapshot in time at a steady condition!
Practically and what is required to prove performance is a the system moving to reach a steady state.
The compressor inlet pressure will only increase when the process is underway, so to start with it will run similar to a normal system, as we start to recompressor, the compressor mass flow will increase, which inturn makes more flash gas in the vessel, which gives greater levels of recompression and so on until equalbrium is reached.

[chillerman2006]

I do not want to influence, others thought patterns on what the result maybe.
The practical objective is to reduce the compressor displacment, increase COP.

<I'll keep making assumptions then, for others to say right/wrong & explain why>

Viewers

the increase in mass(?%) to the evap with reduced flow (69%)

Does this side work - balance out - increase evap ref. effect ?

[simon@parker]

ok am no genius am just a fix it tech perhaps you need to look at yr problem from different angle instead of fitting it to existing system as a drop in part to inrease efficency design a whole system around yr widget and then when you have it working 100percent go back and adjust yr design for drop in fitting :) basically taking an idea and making it better is that to easy ? or do i need a good kick and to shut up ? lol


just hit me looks a little like an nrc enviro pack design low pressure reciever that was higer than case tev so gravity fed valve

[mad fridgie]

The drawing show the liquid/vapor seperation in the vessel.
100% in liquid (35C sat)
Reduce pressure (0C sat)
Liquid leaving 69% (0Csat)
Vapour leaving 31% (0C sat)
This would remain a constant as long as the incoming liquid remained constant.
How ever the actual total mass flow SHOULD increase over time (as the process fires up).
PS figures care of old faithful Coolpack!

[chillerman2006]

ok am no genius am just a fix it tech perhaps you need to look at yr problem from different angle instead of fitting it to existing system as a drop in part to inrease efficency design a whole system around yr widget and then when you have it working 100percent go back and adjust yr design for drop in fitting :) basically taking an idea and making it better is that to easy ? or do i need a good kick and to shut up ? lol

He has working rigg(s) (you may have missed a page in the night Mate, getting ones, un-needed beauty sleep - dont wanna sound like I got a naggs head on to go with me horses:D)

[mad fridgie]

ok am no genius am just a fix it tech perhaps you need to look at yr problem from different angle instead of fitting it to existing system as a drop in part to inrease efficency design a whole system around yr widget and then when you have it working 100percent go back and adjust yr design for drop in fitting :) basically taking an idea and making it better is that to easy ? or do i need a good kick and to shut up ? lol

Certainly no good kick required, it is opinion that we are after, right or wrong does not matter, I would hope that most on here are not here to belittle those who are making an effort. and what you are saying does make sense.
The fact is that you would need to design or redesign the system when fitting the widget, more to do with how the TEV is sized and how the evap coil is confirgured (but that well down the path of proving it works or not)
I do not want to be BS artist, so we have to compare the performance of a system with a widget and without.
The problem is i can not get it working, with any form of repeatability (sometimes very good, sometimes very very bad)
And i am unable (due to lack of funds) to find the right information to solve the issue.

cheers for your input

Mad

[mikeref]

G,day C.M. Have not been on long this morning, (as you already know;)), so i'm catching up on reading. Got the telescope out to see if Mike "Canada" is there ready to put a sock in my mouth again. Check top of page 2 :D..Mike.

[simon@parker]

but the rigs he has are conventional systems ? with widget added ? am talking about complet system design to give him flow required at optimum velocitys :) from my limited perspective if the condensor is over sized slightly with a flow regulator after it and the reciever is used as a surge vessel to back liquid up instead of a conventional reciever which flow passes through liquid will be constant vapour will be constant condenser will act as a semi reciever the rest is standard ish :)

[mad fridgie]

He has working rigg(s)

Or not so well working riggs! lol

[install monkey]

:pmaybe u need an aussie tech to advise/fine tune ur system,afterall they are the guru's of keeping beer cool and transporting beer-quote ref beer cooler buggy and australias first fridge
Or not so well working riggs! lol

[mad fridgie]

but the rigs he has are conventional systems ? with widget added ? am talking about complet system design to give him flow required at optimum velocitys :) from my limited perspective if the condensor is over sized slightly with a flow regulator after it and the reciever is used as a surge vessel to back liquid up instead of a conventional reciever which flow passes through liquid will be constant vapour will be constant condenser will act as a semi reciever the rest is standard ish :)

Long story short!
First rigg, just modified an existing rigg nothing to special, to see if there was potential, had possible results.
(also some flawed testing) because part of the design is to consider what happens if there is a failure with the widget (cause and effect)
Built purpose rigg, with 100% isolation and by-pass of each and every component. So it can be run as 100% conventional or 100% with widget and all steps im-between
can control load (flow and temp), pressure, Superheat, sub cooling, and condensing flow rates.
Basically we are measuring for results cooling capacity, power draw and heat rejected, whilst measuring the parts of the refrigeration system to ensure that we keep with component specifications.
The TVR could be wrong (venturi type device) more than one size and the wrong type, the vessel could be wrong, asumed peak performance may be wrong.

[chillerman2006]

G,day C.M. Have not been on long this morning, (as you already know;)), so i'm catching up on reading. Got the telescope out to see if Mike "Canada" is there ready to put a sock in my mouth again. Check top of page 2 :D..Mike.

G,day mate

I see it last night, been an eager beaver, up all night everynight since this & the other brain splitter started :) just like a good horse (simon agree's :D) I cant leave it alone

R's chillerman

[mad fridgie]

:pmaybe u need an aussie tech to advise/fine tune ur system,afterall they are the guru's of keeping beer cool and transporting beer-quote ref beer cooler buggy and australias first fridge

No when the Aussies need a good fridgie, they call in a "Kiwi" lol:D
( always a bit of banter between the 2 countries, a bit like north and south england)

[mikeref]

Or not so well working riggs! lol
Mad, so using your control rig, if it is only a scale model of the real working size, and identical rig with device in place, would there not be changes such as weight of refrigerant and volume of flow that has to be taken into account? Maybe gravity and ambients have effects. ( Assuming these are scale models as i can't see you moving coldrooms to UK on Air N.Z.)

[MikeHolm]

G,day C.M. Have not been on long this morning, (as you already know;)), so i'm catching up on reading. Got the telescope out to see if Mike "Canada" is there ready to put a sock in my mouth again. Check top of page 2 :D..Mike.

Had to go out and do an honest days work so i was not available for sock putting. Speak, O toothless wonder (as they say, don't shoot me, I'm just the piano man) and I will chime in if I can think of something useful

[install monkey]

theres no banter in the uk its the northerners and the rest! haha

[chillerman2006]

No when the Aussies need a good fridgie, they call in a "Kiwi" lol:D
( always a bit of banter between the 2 countries, a bit like north and south england)

Well you being the southerner(as I), do they b**ch about your sheila's all night, like the double act I get hit with ? :D horse's / donkey's & the private meassages I dont even wanna guess:rolleyes:

[mad fridgie]

Mike,
The unit is a full size model, could be made bigger, could be made smaller, i would expect the complete widget to be the size of an accumulator (the size that would suit a certain size plant)
The test rigg is basically a water cooled, water chiller. (it is some what easier to control and monitor water on both sides) the actual application is not important, it is only a refrigeration circuit.
Copeland ZB 45 on R134a "Brand new"
The bigger the compression ratio, then it would seem the bigger the increase in performance.
for example (using my clacs which could be completely wrong!!) an Ac improvement would only 7-9% increase max net cooling, verses a LT system upto 55% increase in net cooling. (personally I was looking at it for hot water heat pumps)

[mad fridgie]

Well you being the southerner(as I), do they b**ch about your sheila's all night, like the double act I get hit with ? :D horse's / donkey's & the private meassages I dont even wanna guess:rolleyes:

Mate! I no southerner
I was born in BLACKPOOL!

[mikeref]

theres no banter in the uk its the northerners and the rest! haha
Install M, no drama with the Kiwis, they scare us with the face paintings when the two countries compete in football.

[install monkey]

vegas of the north!!!
Mate! I no southerner
I was born in BLACKPOOL!

[chillerman2006]

Mate! I no southerner
I was born in BLACKPOOL!

Was referring to current location - now I know I am a lonely southerner ;)

But then again no - I shall ask my Aussie friends if I can gain an honary (cant spell) membership :D

I should be ok soon - punch & judy's bed time !
:D

[install monkey]

your not wrong there ill be signing off in about 15 mins.am i punch or judy haha
Was referring to current location - now I know I am a lonely southerner ;)

But then again no - I shall ask my Aussie friends if I can gain an honary (cant spell) membership :D

I should be ok soon - punch & judy's bed time !
:D

[chillerman2006]

your not wrong there ill be signing off in about 15 mins.am i punch or judy haha

It was a mixed referall bud - including the seaside town of blackpool :D

As for who is who - you can fight over the glove puppets between you's:D

[MikeHolm]

Hey, what about us Canuks where the suns still shining. Oh well, maybe i'll put a steak on the BBQ and have a beer if you are all going.

[chillerman2006]

Hey, what about us Canuks where the suns still shining. Oh well, maybe i'll put a steak on the BBQ and have a beer if you are all going.

Argh ! Mike I'm 'lee marving' & your got the steaks out, its a tough draw

[mad fridgie]

7135
A scabby drawing of possible types of widget parts

[MikeHolm]

After my lovely dinner (without the sword play) I'll be back an ponder the widget some more. Cheers, CM

[chillerman2006]

Both together


drawing of possible types of widget parts

[mad fridgie]

We have proven that the flash gas (just after TEV) in a normal system has little benefit to the net cooling effect.
By having an indermidiate pressure, we retain the mass of liquid required to meet the refrigeration load, plus we have vapour at pressure higher than the suction, this vapour has the potential to do some work (chosing the words wisely I hope, as not to influence your thought patterns) How would you then determine the work available and how would this be applied, remembering that at the end all streams will pass through the compressor.

[Gary]

Where is the TEV sensing bulb mounted?

[chillerman2006]

Re written Gents banter on here facts only on the other please

[mad fridgie]

I normally use the term expansion device, just used TEV for short, but if was a TEV, then i would presume at the evap. So your next aargument is that we will have some superheat, therefore the flash gas would indeed slightly increase the net cooling effect.
For simplistic purposes I am just using saturation points (subcooling, superheat will of course effect what happens within the system, as it always does)
On the other hand, if the widget has a whole (this how i invisage it) is mounted next to the evap, then maybe the bulb could be mounted after the widget to ensure a fully wetted coil.

[Gary]

So your next aargument is that we will have some superheat, therefore the flash gas would indeed slightly increase the net cooling effect.

No, apparently that would be your next argument. My next argument would be something entirely different.

[mad fridgie]

No, apparently that would be your next argument. My next argument would be something entirely different.

very witty,

Looking forward to that one coming.

If the thing works, and we can prove it, there are plenty of other considerations that to be needed to be accounted for. (many I already know, likely some that i do not) But unless I can get independent proof of concept and some level of possible commercial practiabilty (can be bought, sold and installed for the right price, I believe this side is possible) then other considerations are not worth looking at.

I have spent the last year working on this (not full time) as much for fun as commercial gain. I am presently stumped! hit the wall! in the dark! can not see the wood for trees. Hence bring out into the public eye.

[Gary]

As it happens, I have been studying the very same phenomena... although my widget is very different from your widget. :)

What I was looking for is the opposing forces that bring stability, the zig that balances the zag, the ying for the yang.

[chillerman2006]

On the other hand, if the widget has a whole (this how i invisage it) is mounted next to the evap, then maybe the bulb could be mounted after the widget to ensure a fully wetted coil.

Flooded Evap ! even more cooling ?

How would the mixed compressor inlet vapour work out ?

Would an accumalator need to be used or would this have an adverse affect ?

R's chillerman

[chillerman2006]

As it happens, I have been studying the very same phenomena... although my widget is very different from your widget. :)

What I was looking for is the opposing forces that bring stability, the zig that balances the zag, the ying for the yang.

Lloyds Widget Revealed ???

We need more like this to get the brain ticking ! :)

R's chillerman

[Gary]

Lloyds Widget Revealed ???


I don't think so. :)

[chillerman2006]

As it happens, I have been studying the very same phenomena... although my widget is very different from your widget. :)

What I was looking for is the opposing forces that bring stability, the zig that balances the zag, the ying for the yang.


Lloyds Widget Revealed ???

We need more like this to get the brain ticking ! :)

R's chillerman


I don't think so. :)

Well thats a shame as I have been working on the same project by the sounds of it !

Whats your position on production ?

This could be a race to the finish now,

On your marks

Get set

Go

:D

R's chillerman

[mad fridgie]

I don't think so. :)

Well I hope you can use thread to help with your project,

hers some more to help you along the way.

Vortex tube to further sub cool the liquid, and to use of joul thompson to reduce compressor SH, whilst increasing mass flow, of course will need high side intercoler.

a simple turbo charger, would do the trick

You could use a an ejector and go internal sonic an elevate the exit pressure above that of the motive force, recondense and re-introduce into the liquid line.

there are good few other options but just best suited to very stable steady systems.

hope this help for a starter.

[Gary]

Well thats a shame as I have been working on the same project by the sounds of it !

Whats your position on production ?

This could be a race to the finish now,

On your marks

Get set

Go

:D

R's chillerman

Hot and heavy competition seems unlikely. The only person I ever compete with is myself.

My widget is on a back burner. In addition to the material resources involved, real testing requires a level of self-discipline which I decidedly lack... and bringing it to market is even less appealing to me. Brainstorming is the fun part. The rest of it is a nightmare. And I'm retired.

So... back burner it is.

[mad fridgie]

My widget is on a back burner. In addition to the material resources involved, real testing requires a level of self-discipline which I decidedly lack... and bringing it to market is even less appealing to me. Brainstorming is the fun part. The rest of it is a nightmare. And I'm retired.



How true.....

[chillerman2006]

Hot and heavy competition seems unlikely. The only person I ever compete with is myself.

My widget is on a back burner. In addition to the material resources involved, real testing requires a level of self-discipline which I decidedly lack... and bringing it to market is even less appealing to me. Brainstorming is the fun part. The rest of it is a nightmare. And I'm retired.

So... back burner it is.

I am only teasing Mate

A time served Jedi Master would run rings round me :) Retired or not,

I just thought with all this thunder you's could spare me some

R's chillerman

[Gary]

As they say in Australia, no worries, mate.

I do what I love, love what I do... and life is good. :)

[mikeref]

C.M, you are burning the candle at both ends. Don't want you to have an accident at work from lack of sleep :off topic:.

[MikeHolm]

Hello All, I think I shall ponder this in the days and weeks to come. If I had 3 stomachs, I could truly ruminate on it. My work load will decrease in 6 weeks or so for the winter so there will be more time but I will watch this thread with much interest.

[Peter_1]

Try this very basic device.

A piece of 7/8 pipe 6' long, stick your oxy/act tip in on end (middlish if possible) leave this end still open to the air, turn on oxygen (really you should use nitrogen to be safe) but it is the tip that is important. (motive force)
What you should see is that air is pulled into the pipe at one end (suction) and quite a lot flow coming out of the other end. ( alot more flow that just the oxygen flowing from the tip)
Just reading now on page 3..what you describe MF is the working principle of a ramjet engine.

[Peter_1]

Now The vapour side of the vessel?
Is this vapour at a higher or lower pressure than that at the evap outlet. (and what would its properties be chef's question)
The vapor is apparently different as I read the lower answers and my brain is twisting on this one. May I ask to explain this a little bit further.

[chillerman2006]

As they say in Australia, no worries, mate.

I do what I love, love what I do... and life is good. :)

Hi Gary

I should hope so to, you have earned it !

& still have time to help us learner's,

in between basking in that glorious Florida weather,

R's chillerman

[Peter_1]

Such an interesting thread during these busy days. MF, your schematic at the end explained a little bit more about the intermediate pressure. Have to read back now. Will continue reading later.
I also had a similar widget about increasing evaporator capacity with 0K SH and making the needed SH elsewhere with an additional coil which made also a higher SH then needed to use this to heat water. I think I once made a sketch I've send to DesA . But just like you, there must be something wrong in my thinking process.

[chillerman2006]

C.M, you are burning the candle at both ends. Don't want you to have an accident at work from lack of sleep :off topic:.
Hi Mike,

am ok bud, glad someone cares, (violins) argh !

I prefer the night shift here, much friendly-er

The day shift, keeps picking on me & my equestrian friends

R's chillerman



Hello All, I think I shall ponder this in the days and weeks to come. If I had 3 stomachs, I could truly ruminate on it. My work load will decrease in 6 weeks or so for the winter so there will be more time but I will watch this thread with much interest.

Hi Mike

mine already has, so if there is any more of them 'joe blakes' going spare, I'm on the next plane !

R's chillerman

[chillerman2006]

I also had a similar widget about increasing evaporator capacity with 0K SH and making the needed SH elsewhere with an additional coil which made also a higher SH then needed to use this to heat water. I think I once made a sketch I've send to DesA . But just like you, there must be something wrong in my thinking process.

Hi Peter

not necessarily thinking wrong, in fact

from what I read all the great minds here are 'singing to the same hym sheet'

In more ways than one !

R's chillerman

[simon@parker]

if i understand yr diagram you want to add this to a standard system i dont think it will work all the time on a standard system because by reducing the pressure after the condenser before the reciever you are loosing omff or energy that the higher pressure liquid has you are then fillin a reciever with fluid at a low pressure which you are then putting to a tev evap and then trying to suck it out with a sort of venturi effect and increase pressure with a higher pressure sub cooled vapour i think it will work if instead of a reciever you use a vessle for liquid similar to an expansion tank take yr vapour feed off the top of that put the tev and evap below the condenser and reciever vessle using the effect of gravity and that all fluids find there own level and move yr widget closer to evap does that make any sense ?

[simon@parker]

have just had the penny drop big style yr basically squirting higher pressure vapour at the compressor causing a sucking vacume effect to increase the velocity of the gas leaving the evap so causing less work done by comp bloody genius :) and the part yr gonna fit is like you say very basic wow think u just re invented the wheel

[desA]

As I read & re-read through this very interesting thread, I keep wondering about a few niggles going on in my engineering 'gut':

1. The ejector/motive device will be governed my a momentum interchange between the two fluids.
2. Momentum = mass*velocity = density*volume flowrate*velocity
3. Could the pressure drop in the motive device cause back pressure into the separation tank?
4. Would the liquid flash into the separation tank?
5. A niggly feeling of system feedback driven backwards from the motive device into the liquid circuit.
6. Expectation of some level of system 'bouncing'.

Niggles - can't quite put my finger on them. Will try to set up some simulations to play with gas/liquid dynamics.

[chillerman2006]

As I read & re-read through this very interesting thread, I keep wondering about a few niggles going on in my engineering 'gut':

1. The ejector/motive device will be governed my a momentum interchange between the two fluids.
2. Momentum = mass*velocity = density*volume flowrate*velocity
3. Could the pressure drop in the motive device cause back pressure into the separation tank?
4. Would the liquid flash into the separation tank?
5. A niggly feeling of system feedback driven backwards from the motive device into the liquid circuit.
6. Expectation of some level of system 'bouncing'.

Niggles - can't quite put my finger on them. Will try to set up some simulations to play with gas/liquid dynamics.

Good Evening DesA

Your thread has started again,

http://www.refrigeration-engineer.com/forums/showthread.php?32763-Carters-Widget-Revealed-(Just-Facts-Nothing-Else)

I have cut & pasted relevant comments for 'Mad' last night & will add this to it now

the rest of us can still play here, - too much banter/off topic

Regards chillerman

[Peter_1]

Good Evening DesA
Your thread has started again,
http://www.refrigeration-engineer.com/forums/showthread.php?32763-Carters-Widget-Revealed-(Just-Facts-Nothing-Else)

I have cut & pasted relevant comments for 'Mad' last night & will add this to it now

the rest of us can still play here, - too much banter/off topic

Regards chillerman
Hey Chillerman, very nice job you did. I just asked in the Mod sextion - sextion, type error but a good one - how we can print a whole thread spread over several pages. You filtered out the chit-chat which is needed in such a conversations, especially at night to stay awake.
Chillerman, why should this book not be something for you. After what I've read from you..Certainly it is something for you. I will search once if I can't find it in a pdf version. I also have other ebooks regarding Thermodynamics.

[chillerman2006]

Hey Chillerman, very nice job you did. I just asked in the Mod sextion - sextion, type error but a good one - how we can print a whole thread spread over several pages. You filtered out the chit-chat which is needed in such a conversations, especially at night to stay awake.
Chillerman, why should this book not be something for you. After what I've read from you..Certainly it is something for you. I will search once if I can't find it in a pdf version. I also have other ebooks regarding Thermodynamics.

That's good, Thanks Peter

I have just noticed I have missed an important contribution from 'Tayters', will have to add it

Thankyou for the vote of confidence with the book, that encourage's me even more,

R's chillerman

sextion;)

[mad fridgie]

have just had the penny drop big style yr basically squirting higher pressure vapour at the compressor causing a sucking vacume effect to increase the velocity of the gas leaving the evap so causing less work done by comp bloody genius :) and the part yr gonna fit is like you say very basic wow think u just re invented the wheel

Well done, now get your think cap on.
Rememeber that the high pressure vapour, would be classed as intermidiate pressure vapour, so not to confuse it with the normal discharge pressure.
The intermediate vapour is that would just normally be wasted in standard refrigeration system. So the smarts is the combination of more than one principle and the simplistic nature of the device if we can resolve both the theorectical, then the practical issus.
On very large systems it could be more complex to achieve optiumum across the whole working range. (modulating everything)

[mad fridgie]

As I read & re-read through this very interesting thread, I keep wondering about a few niggles going on in my engineering 'gut':

1. The ejector/motive device will be governed my a momentum interchange between the two fluids.
2. Momentum = mass*velocity = density*volume flowrate*velocity
3. Could the pressure drop in the motive device cause back pressure into the separation tank?
4. Would the liquid flash into the separation tank?
5. A niggly feeling of system feedback driven backwards from the motive device into the liquid circuit.
6. Expectation of some level of system 'bouncing'.

Niggles - can't quite put my finger on them. Will try to set up some simulations to play with gas/liquid dynamics.

Now we are thinking.
Firstly we have to consider that end results is time based, and built up over time.
You have covered this by stating that the system in its self could be a negative feedback system. (when we first start, mass flow is very low, does it continue to fall or will it rise, and then where is equalibrium reached.)
The main question (ignore the system as a whole for a while) is what would be the pressure/temperature of the two combine vapour streams? ( evap outlet and the intermediate vessel vapour outlet) (the vapour that would enter the normal compressor is the combination), or i should say best possible result.
At this stage I would have to presume (wrightly or wrongly) that the streams properties are at saturation.

[simon@parker]

have noticed in the time i have been doin refrigeration that the theory never quite matches practical because the system always in constant modulation it comes down to gut feeling and engineers judgement that is why it is considered black magic when we get it right :)

[chillerman2006]

Gents

If I miss something that needs posting on the facts page, please give me a nudge

With the - #number

Trying to keep up & hopefully not missed nothing else yet

R's chillerman (or MF's - Receptionist !) ;) (without the skirt)

[mad fridgie]

have noticed in the time i have been doin refrigeration that the theory never quite matches practical because the system always in constant modulation it comes down to gut feeling and engineers judgement that is why it is considered black magic when we get it right :)
I do have I saying "the best design engineer is a serviceman, and the best serviceman is a design engineer"
What i am saying here is that even though we are in the same field , each has their own set of skills and when combined make for an excellent combination.
If you can understand why the theory, never quite matches, then it will feel less like black magic. I hope you are learning from thread (widget or no widget)

[mad fridgie]

Gents

If I miss something that needs posting on the facts page, please give me a nudge

With the - #number

Trying to keep up & hopefully not missed nothing else yet

R's chillerman (or MF's - Receptionist !) ;) (without the skirt)

You told me you had a skirt and lovely legs, uhhhhhh

[chillerman2006]

You told me you had a skirt and lovely legs, uhhhhhh

Hollow sparrow legs ! deffo no skirt !

[simon@parker]

I do have I saying "the best design engineer is a serviceman, and the best serviceman is a design engineer"
What i am saying here is that even though we are in the same field , each has their own set of skills and when combined make for an excellent combination.
If you can understand why the theory, never quite matches, then it will feel less like black magic. I hope you are learning from thread (widget or no widget)
lol i meant when i fix something and explain to customer they get this blank look am guessing if it had been in medievil times i would have been burned at the stake :) i suppose i am quite lucky can spend time looking at kit and work out how its supposed to work then go and set it how it will work thats why am thinking way i am bout yr widget still a dam good idea and am no good at the mathes so cant help there am a field guy always will be :)

[mad fridgie]

lol i meant when i fix something and explain to customer they get this blank look am guessing if it had been in medievil times i would have been burned at the stake :) i suppose i am quite lucky can spend time looking at kit and work out how its supposed to work then go and set it how it will work thats why am thinking way i am bout yr widget still a dam good idea and am no good at the mathes so cant help there am a field guy always will be :)
A bit of advice.
Please do not undersell yourself!
you are already on the way to being a design engineer, just by showing interest and giving your thoughts.
If you have not be taught the nicities of the industry, then how are you expected to know.
Without relealising you more than likely design plenty. have you ever changed a compressor that was not quite the same size of the original (say a bit bigger), youl be thinking lower suction pressures, high cond pressures, well in many cases that is what a design engineer does when selectiong equipment.
All check the posts that seem to have a ding dong about them, this where good information is provided to prove points.

[install monkey]

i start mumbling crap too because normally im checking out boooobies whilst justifying my site visit!haha

[chillerman2006]

As I read & re-read through this very interesting thread, I keep wondering about a few niggles going on in my engineering 'gut':

1. The ejector/motive device will be governed my a momentum interchange between the two fluids.
2. Momentum = mass*velocity = density*volume flowrate*velocity
3. Could the pressure drop in the motive device cause back pressure into the separation tank?
4. Would the liquid flash into the separation tank?
5. A niggly feeling of system feedback driven backwards from the motive device into the liquid circuit.
6. Expectation of some level of system 'bouncing'.

Niggles - can't quite put my finger on them. Will try to set up some simulations to play with gas/liquid dynamics.

(Time to read for a minute)

Hi DesA/Mad Fridgie

3. could a NRV be used in the line to prevent feedback ???

my first thought would be resistance/flow ???

But if thats the case - larger pipework to NRV + larger NRV - would this then balance out ???

R's chillerman

[mad fridgie]

As I read & re-read through this very interesting thread, I keep wondering about a few niggles going on in my engineering 'gut':

1. The ejector/motive device will be governed my a momentum interchange between the two fluids.
2. Momentum = mass*velocity = density*volume flowrate*velocity
3. Could the pressure drop in the motive device cause back pressure into the separation tank?
4. Would the liquid flash into the separation tank?
5. A niggly feeling of system feedback driven backwards from the motive device into the liquid circuit.
6. Expectation of some level of system 'bouncing'.

Niggles - can't quite put my finger on them. Will try to set up some simulations to play with gas/liquid dynamics.

3. only if the nozzle is to small and chokes (other wise no, unless there is some for of reverse shockwave), this would balance itself out, as the pressure would increase reduce the flash gas and increase thre liquid flow through the evap expansion device (this also comes down how we control the pressure in the vessel, up stream or down stream)
4. the vessel is at reduced pressure than the liquid line (for design purposes) if the liquid is highly sub cooled or a pressure close to that of the vessel the amount of flash gas will reduce, "this would normall indicate the system is running very efficiently anyway, and has been considered in the practical application"
5. Could be a possibilty as at the start the evap would be very starved, give low compressor mass flow, so lo flash gas. (can be resolved easily with a simple widget by-pass)
6. Likely to be abit of instability, can live with this (fairly normal for most refrigeration system, example pressure controlled cycling condensing fans)

[mad fridgie]

(Time to read for a minute)

Hi DesA/Mad Fridgie

3. could a NRV be used in the line to prevent feedback ???

my first thought would be resistance/flow ???

But if thats the case - larger pipework to NRV + larger NRV - would this then balance out ???

R's chillerman

Not really an issue, if we had a reverse pressure wave, then installation of a simple muffler type device would resolve this issie

[chillerman2006]

Not really an issue, if we had a reverse pressure wave, then installation of a simple muffler type device would resolve this issie

I see above, now, if only waited afew minutes more, thanks

[mikeref]

i start mumbling crap too because normally im checking out boooobies whilst justifying my site visit!haha
While i was pointing out a problem on a fridge to a young house wife one day, she bent over, with the low cut top to get a closer look at the situation and my eyes had no-where else to go except down her shirt. made out i had something in my eye:eek:..Mike.

[install monkey]

While i was pointing out a problem on a fridge to a young house wife one day, she bent over, with the low cut top to get a closer look at the situation and my eyes had no-where else to go except down her shirt. made out i had something in my eye:eek:..Mike.

Its best to open the freezer door and ask them to smell the coldness-and hey presto monkey fingers!!!!haha

[install monkey]

Not one to blow my own trumpet but i built a particle collider in my kitchen using pipe cleaners and squirty washing up bottles!haha

[MikeHolm]

MF, at a given point, the amount of flash will partially be determined by the surface area and insulation of the "vessel" be it a pipe or a tank and the exterior temp around the vessel and the boundary (surface) area between liquid/gas. If the the vessel is long and thin like a low loss header there will be more surface area but less liquid/gas boundary area.

Will this aid in producing a higher quality gas? I assume the above factors will help to determine the quantity of usable flash gas to be injected. What it seems to me is we are looking at a steam boiler (sort of)

[MikeHolm]

Fellows, i try very hard to keep the boooobies/legs etc out of my working life. In this way I am an abject failure. only problem is i seem to work for a lot of lesbians. DUUHHH

[MikeHolm]

Should i have put #184 in the other post?

[mad fridgie]

MF, at a given point, the amount of flash will partially be determined by the surface area and insulation of the "vessel" be it a pipe or a tank and the exterior temp around the vessel and the boundary (surface) area between liquid/gas. If the the vessel is long and thin like a low loss header there will be more surface area but less liquid/gas boundary area.

Will this aid in producing a higher quality gas? I assume the above factors will help to determine the quantity of usable flash gas to be injected. What it seems to me is we are looking at a steam boiler (sort of)

You are correct this have to be considered in the vessel design.
First we have to seperate the liquid and vapour , so first we have slow down the exit velocity leaving expansion device (squirt effect), (could be baffle or gause, or can use it to aid seperation centrifugal force) then we have to ensure the internal velocity is low enough the gravity will actually allow the liquid to drop out, and suspose the height also becomes important to give enough time for it to happen.

the actual boundry layer between the mass of liquid and vapour is always being broken due to the falling droplets. as vapour and liquid at saturation no energy exchange occurs, but you may get a reverse action to the drops failing "splash back"

Now in heat ingress to the vessel, if in the example the vessell was not insulated, the we would likely be superheating the vapour prior to the exit, and adding a slight amount of energy in the liquid causing slightly more flash gas to drive the TVR.

[mad fridgie]

Should i have put #184 in the other post?
yes, but my secartary will sort it. lol (the one with the legs)

[desA]

So far, the simulations are showing up a few interesting leads to pursue (the ejector pull/momentum dynamics haven't yet been modeled):

1. The AEV seems to be required to generate a flash, otherwise the vessel stays as liquid only, with no vapour feed stream to the ejector.
1A. Practically some flash could be caused by small pipe changes/blockages as well.

2. If the liquid line is split (remains as liquid) - one part to TXV/evap, then the other part flashing on its way to the ejector - could create a sizable vapour speed/momentum to the ejector.

[mad fridgie]

So far, the simulations are showing up a few interesting leads to pursue (the ejector pull/momentum dynamics haven't yet been modeled):

1. The AEV seems to be required to generate a flash, otherwise the vessel stays as liquid only, with no vapour feed stream to the ejector.
1A. Practically some flash could be caused by small pipe changes/blockages as well.

2. If the liquid line is split (remains as liquid) - one part to TXV/evap, then the other part flashing on its way to the ejector - could create a sizable vapour speed/momentum to the ejector.

1 yes AEV or similar is always required.

2 Unless you change the conditions of the liquid entering the TEV at the evap all you a have done is reduce the mass flow to the evap, reducing net cooling, then on the other side, will the expanding liquid, pulling in the evap vapour, lift the suction pressure to the compressor enough to increase the compressor mass first to equal the original short fall and secondary to increase the mass flow to make it a increase the net cooling over a standard so that the system becomes commercially viable. (it is somehat similar to know what will be the outlet pressure and temperature of the TVR/ejector orcompressor inlet

[MikeHolm]

You are correct this have to be considered in the vessel design.
First we have to seperate the liquid and vapour , so first we have slow down the exit velocity leaving expansion device (squirt effect), (could be baffle or gause, or can use it to aid seperation centrifugal force) then we have to ensure the internal velocity is low enough the gravity will actually allow the liquid to drop out, and suspose the height also becomes important to give enough time for it to happen.

the actual boundry layer between the mass of liquid and vapour is always being broken due to the falling droplets. as vapour and liquid at saturation no energy exchange occurs, but you may get a reverse action to the drops failing "splash back"

Now in heat ingress to the vessel, if in the example the vessell was not insulated, the we would likely be superheating the vapour prior to the exit, and adding a slight amount of energy in the liquid causing slightly more flash gas to drive the TVR.

I was under the assumption that the vessel was between the condenser and the TXV. If not, won't there be a lot more flash (due to lower pressure) in the vessel then desired. In other words, work that can be done in the evap is being re-routed to the TVR.

[mad fridgie]

I was under the assumption that the vessel was between the condenser and the TXV. If not, won't there be a lot more flash (due to lower pressure) in the vessel then desired. In other words, work that can be done in the evap is being re-routed to the TVR.

The flash gas does not do any work in the evap (energy) (very start of the thread).
The vessel is at sn intermediate pressure, and is between cond and TXV

[chillerman2006]

yes, but my secartary will sort it. lol (the one with the legs)

Only just see this, I'll do it as soon as I finish your coffee & get back with your bacon butties ! Boss


Gents if I missed pasteing a post that you's want moving over to the facts or something that needs moving of the facts please give me a nudge #1 facts is now massive so time to start #3

If You Have an Hour or so to spare it really reads well, so well I think its time to place your cv's up there as well as this could be a carsberg team ! Keep it coming !

[install monkey]

ive reviewed the concept the design spec ,the fundmentals also the logic and expected outputs and cost savings and i have a query over the widget.-what colour is it???

i hope i posted this on the right thread or ill have ur administrator removing this haha

[chillerman2006]

ive reviewed the concept the design spec ,the fundmentals also the logic and expected outputs and cost savings and i have a query over the widget.-what colour is it???

i hope i posted this on the right thread or ill have ur administrator removing this haha

Haha I'll ask the boss when he gets back if he has navy blue with pink spots as we know you like to be different !

[install monkey]

Haha I'll ask the boss when he gets back if he has navy blue with pink spots as we know you like to be different !

i asked if i could buy a beta version to tinker with-mf has lost a sale! have u got one in ur filing cabinet?

[simon@parker]

ive reviewed the concept the design spec ,the fundmentals also the logic and expected outputs and cost savings and i have a query over the widget.-what colour is it???

i hope i posted this on the right thread or ill have ur administrator removing this haha
well if we are now talking colours i want stealth black please with a silver go faster stripe :) lol

[install monkey]

well if we are now talking colours i want stealth black please with a silver go faster stripe :) lol

which way do you want the stripe??

[chillerman2006]

While i was pointing out a problem on a young house wife one day, she bent over, with the low cut top to get a closer look at the situation and my eyes hands no-where else to go except down her skirt. made out i had something in my pocket:eek:..Mike.

Evening Mike,

What was the problem with this house wife & what did you find in her skirt ? ;)

And what was in your pocket Mate ? :D

[MikeHolm]

I thought red was the go faster colour

[install monkey]

he was gonna show off his widget!!!!
Evening Mike,

What was the problem with this house wife & what did you find in her skirt ? ;)

And what was in your pocket Mate ? :D

[simon@parker]

which way do you want the stripe??
after careful consideration i believe a batman logo in silver would more suit me lmfao :) am sure they could put a banana one on for you monkey :p lol

[install monkey]

that careful consideration took nearly an hour!! - if i get mrs monkey a batman suit and sprayed her silver -would that suffice until ur widget arrives?? haha
after careful consideration i believe a batman logo in silver would more suit me lmfao :) am sure they could put a banana one on for you monkey :p lol

[mikeref]

Evening Mike,

What was the problem with this house wife & what did you find in her skirt ? ;)

And what was in your pocket Mate ? :D Had to re-read the quote. Did i really say that :confused: ? Nah, she most likely would have a professional wrestler for a husband. low cut top was r e a l l y low. Left nothing for the imagination ;).

[chillerman2006]

Had to re-read the quote. Did i really say that :confused: ? Nah, she most likely would have a professional wrestler for a husband. low cut top was r e a l l y low. Left nothing for the imagination ;).

hi Mike,

I thought with all them tinnies last night you would not notice,

Think I need a beer, now !

R's chillerman

[install monkey]

mad fridgie-if found your sales pitch
http://youtu.be/Ac7G7xOG2Ag
haha:p:p:o

[Gary]

mad fridgie-if found your sales pitch
http://youtu.be/Ac7G7xOG2Ag
haha:p:p:o

Priceless... ROFL...

[mikeref]

mad fridgie-if found your sales pitch
http://youtu.be/Ac7G7xOG2Ag
haha:p:p:o
Non reversable tremmi pipe, girdle spring, lateral movement, $750,000,000. How did this guy keep a straight face :D.

[install monkey]

if youve seen neighbours or home and away -then that answers ur question-someone else posted it and i saw it and thoght carters widget!!!
Non reversable tremmi pipe, girdle spring, lateral movement, $750,000,000. How did this guy keep a straight face :D.

[mikeref]

I do have I saying "the best design engineer is a serviceman, and the best serviceman is a design engineer"
What i am saying here is that even though we are in the same field , each has their own set of skills and when combined make for an excellent combination.
If you can understand why the theory, never quite matches, then it will feel less like black magic. I hope you are learning from thread (widget or no widget)
So whats our plan... According to this map, the entire south island of New Zealand is crawling with Dr. Mad's guards, so where did you stash the widget? In this bag?... look in the bottom next to the C02 cannister..http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wMctMhMOtrY