TK -3 way valve theory???

[reeferj]

hi guys, i have a question about the TK 3-way valve working theory. Generally, i understand how it works, but in terms of the "condenser Pressure Bypass Check Valve", I was told that it improves 3-way valve heat-to-cool response time, how does that improve it? If there is no this condenser pressure bypass check valve, i didn't see anything difference as it shifts from heat to cool mode? could any one tell me about that in very very details?

[chillerman2006]

hi guys, i have a question about the TK 3-way valve working theory. Generally, i understand how it works, but in terms of the "condenser Pressure Bypass Check Valve", I was told that it improves 3-way valve heat-to-cool response time, how does that improve it? If there is no this condenser pressure bypass check valve, i didn't see anything difference as it shifts from heat to cool mode? could any one tell me about that in very very details?

Hi reeferj

If my memory serves me correctly

Just like on a cold day when 'if' the system was to run without a cbcv your head pressure would be to low & you would over condensing - starving the txv of a clear feed of liquid

remember how you partially block the condensor on cold days to check for correct charge on units that do not have cbcv's

Same thing when it switchs from heat to cool

It allows the head pressure to build quicker by bypassing the condensor

And as you need a set pressure at a set temperature to condense

You in effect go into full cooling mode quicker

Does that make sense ?

[reeferj]

Thanks Chillerman so much, but in the cbcv has two things, one is the bypassing function, which is like what you said, when pilot solenoid closes, it can build up the pressure quickly on the valve condenser side. I understand this function. However, the other thing is the check valve, it only allows ***** to flow from condenser to discharge vibe, it won't work the other way, what is this function? why?

If it just had the bypassing channel only, no check valve, it seems the valve still works fine, doesn't it?

When it is in heat or defrost mode, the condenser side of 3-way valve is almost 0 psig or very small pressure, so the check valve always closes, how's that improve the heat-to-cool respond time?

If I front seat the check valve, no ***** flows, it doesn't make any difference, right?

[chillerman2006]

Thanks Chillerman so much, but in the cbcv has two things, one is the bypassing function, which is like what you said, when pilot solenoid closes, it can build up the pressure quickly on the valve condenser side. I understand this function. However, the other thing is the check valve, it only allows ***** to flow from condenser to discharge vibe, it won't work the other way, what is this function? why?

If it just had the bypassing channel only, no check valve, it seems the valve still works fine, doesn't it?

When it is in heat or defrost mode, the condenser side of 3-way valve is almost 0 psig or very small pressure, so the check valve always closes, how's that improve the heat-to-cool respond time?

If I front seat the check valve, no ***** flows, it doesn't make any difference, right?

no prob Mate

That side of it is just to stop liquid refrigerant flowing back to the 3way valve (will not function full of liquid) when unit stops

[reeferj]

stop liquid refrigerant flowing back to 3-way valve? Where is the liquid ***** from? I still didn't get how this check valve's function, and why we need it there.

[chillerman2006]

Hi reeferj

There are two check valves that stop condensed/liquid refrigerant from flowing back to the 3way valve + compressor

They are - condensor bypass check valve & condensor check valve

Not only does the unit condense refrigerant in the condensor but it also condense's refrigerant in the tubework that bypass's the condensor when ever pressures are low enough not to require the use of the condenser

When you look at a refrigerant compareter/slide rule

If you look at any given pressure (discharge/suction pressure)

and then go straight up to the corresponding temperature

This is the refrigerants saturated temperature

If you then take a touch probe & measure the tubework (bypassed or condensor outlet etc)

If the refrigerant is condensed you will have a temperature lower than

The corresponding temperature on the compareter for that pressure

If the temperature is equal - it's saturated (as above)

If it's a higher temperature - its superheated

Does that make sense mate

[reeferj]

Based on what you said, that small check valve in 3-way valve is not necessary part for the system to work. Even in the design, that small check valve in 3-way valve can be taken way and wont' affect the 3-way valve function.

[reeferj]

just keep the bypassing tube in 3-way valve, that is enough for the 3-way way. no that small check valve in the 3-way valve and block that, there is no refrigerant migration at all!

[reeferj]

let's focus on the small check valve in the 3-way valve. what is its function? if just for stopping liquid refrigeration migration. that why in the designing, it has to be there. why just no this small check in the 3-way valve?

[chillerman2006]

hi reeferj

If I am understanding your question correctly

Your talking about the little service valve on the 3way valve

What that is for is just to check if the 3way valve is sealing or needs a service kit

How to use it=

You run the unit and wind in the valve

immediatly stop the unit & with a jumper wire you energise the pilot solenoid

whilst watching your discharge gauge

when the pressure settles

you de-energise the pilot solenoid

and watch your discharge gauge

if the pressure stays stable the 3way valve is working correctly

If the pressure rises then the 3way valve is letting by & not sealing

R's chillerman

[reeferj]

ohohohohoh, it makes sense, this little check valve is just for checking if 3-way valve works properly or not. it does make sense. it is a tool for our technician. Thank you so much, very very much!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

[chillerman2006]

ohohohohoh, it makes sense, this little check valve is just for checking if 3-way valve works properly or not. it does make sense. it is a tool for our technician. Thank you so much, very very much!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Reeferj

Absolutely no problem mate

I am happy to be of assistance

R's chillerman

[Boss302]

hi reeferj

If I am understanding your question correctly

Your talking about the little service valve on the 3way valve

What that is for is just to check if the 3way valve is sealing or needs a service kit

How to use it=

You run the unit and wind in the valve

immediatly stop the unit & with a jumper wire you energise the pilot solenoid

whilst watching your discharge gauge

when the pressure settles

you de-energise the pilot solenoid

and watch your discharge gauge

if the pressure stays stable the 3way valve is working correctly

If the pressure rises then the 3way valve is letting by & not sealing

R's chillerman

That is not why the check valve is there. Earlier 3-way valves did not have this check valve and you could still test the seat this way. It is there for the reason the original poster stated.

[reeferj]

hi Boss302, could you explain it in details, please? how does that work?

[Boss302]

7089 Hope this helps. I don't believe TK started using the check valve until they started running R502, due to the higher head pressure.

[chillerman2006]

That is not why the check valve is there. Earlier 3-way valves did not have this check valve and you could still test the seat this way. It is there for the reason the original poster stated.

My Mistake

[Boss302]

The "Little service valve on the 3-way valve" is part of the condenser pressure bypass check valve. I believe you didn't read the post properly. That is what he asked about. The check valve is not there for checking the 3-way valve for functioning correctly. I understood exactly what he was asking about.

[chillerman2006]

The "Little service valve on the 3-way valve" is part of the condenser pressure bypass check valve. I believe you didn't read the post properly. That is what he asked about. The check valve is not there for checking the 3-way valve for functioning correctly. I understood exactly what he was asking about.

Well after your post here, as I have not touched one for 15 years (dirty work moved on up), double checked with ThermoKing Engineers that I worked with & still see often, both said the same thing, Strange :confused:

Plus I have carried this procedure out at least 300 times, on annual/major services, it works try it !

[Robert Hilton]

Boss302 is on the button. The condensor pressure bypass check valve was fitted to improve heating/defrost and three way valve response time, during the introduction of higher pressure refrigerants. You don't close the check valve to test the three way valve, you close it because otherwise you can't test the three way valve.

[chillerman2006]

You don't close the check valve to test the three way valve, you close it because otherwise you can't test the three way valve.

Well that makes good sense- you still have to close it :rolleyes:

The op asked about the check valves then last time asked again from a different angle (I only speak plain english which that is not), reading the post it appears he wants another answer, he got one, which explains how to test 3way valve

I worked for TK for 3 years & succesfully faulted valves with this procedure, replaced the kits & then it works/seals

I also worked for Carrier (united technologies) & when they brought out the Vector that was the end of the engineer...all they do now is change oil/filters & sensors, no technical abillity needed no more as a vector will compensate so well it will pull chilled with half a charge of refigerant and tell you whats wrong with it!

[DaButcher]

Straight from the book

Condenser Pressure Bypass Check Valve: A valve
located in the 3-way valve end cap. It permits condenser
pressure to flow to the discharge line when the 3-way valve
first shifts to heat. It improves the 3-way valve response
time when the pilot solenoid closes.

[moggy66]

I also worked for Carrier (united technologies) & when they brought out the Vector that was the end of the engineer...all they do now is change oil/filters & sensors, no technical abillity needed no more as a vector will compensate so well it will pull chilled with half a charge of refigerant and tell you whats wrong with it!


Is that so...well i hope your T/K buddies don't read that.. i was sent a Vector form a customer that T/K couldn't fix...................i won't tell you what the fault was........but it certainly didn't tell you what it was !!!!!!! that could be one for quote of the year

[chillerman2006]

Straight from the book

Condenser Pressure Bypass Check Valve: A valve
located in the 3-way valve end cap. It permits condenser
pressure to flow to the discharge line when the 3-way valve
first shifts to heat. It improves the 3-way valve response
time when the pilot solenoid closes.

the book i give away 15 tears ago when i got bored of that game, not argueing thats wrong, i told the fella how to check 3 way valve, and got told its wrong

A common cbcv works as i described earlier & recall that easier as the bleed valve

Human Nature

[chillerman2006]

Is that so...well i hope your T/K buddies don't read that.. i was sent a Vector form a customer that T/K couldn't fix...................i won't tell you what the fault was........but it certainly didn't tell you what it was !!!!!!! that could be one for quote of the year

I'm uk not canada

[chillerman2006]

always look on the bright side of life, di de, di de di de di de

PS. Marshall ThermoKing, kick a** here, they fix anything!!!

Vectors for breakfast
:D

[chillerman2006]

boss, robert, butcher & moggy

dont take things so seriously

let your hair down, chill out & just have a laugh

(remember human nature & I'm knocking on now)

come join in & let us here it from the other side of the fence

http://www.refrigeration-engineer.com/forums/showthread.php?32662-Why-Do-They-treat-Us-This-Way
:)

[chillerman2006]

i was sent a Vector form a customer that T/K couldn't fix..................

" a vector form " it's just a tick sheet ... you know pen to paper .... Tick:)

[abbsnowman]

well it just shows the standard of your people, I'm uk not canada :D:D:D



so its your people not mine:D





hahahahaha good night


Buddy, I'm from Canada and proud of it. I know my stuff and can fix, yes I said fix, anything properly too. I take offence to what your saying here especialy considdering you are contradicting yourself constantly. Read this post from the start. You should be commended for trying to help. That said, once you were corrected, you started to spew garbage like a child.
Case in point, you say "I also worked for Carrier (united technologies) & when they brought out the Vector that was the end of the engineer...all they do now is change oil/filters & sensors, no technical abillity needed no more as a vector will compensate so well it will pull chilled with half a charge of refigerant and tell you whats wrong with it!"
Then you say " PS. Marshall ThermoKing, kick a** here, they fix anything!!!

Vectors for breakfast
:D"

What do you mean? They are good at dumping oil? Have you ever even worked on a Vector?
Anyways, I'm not here to insult.
I would just like to thank you for giving an effort but encourage you to open your mind and accept that others may know more than you. If your not carefull you may learn something from these guys. They are a great bunch. I can vouch for that.
Cheers boys!

[chillerman2006]

unless my history teacher was misstaken aswell as me :eek:

Were it not, apart from the red indians(dont know their background) everyone in america traces back to europe & everyone in europe traces back to africa ..... we are all one .....

we are all the same !!!!

Dont take things personal,

I'm just a southern panzie to the tough boys up north .... i dont cry about it

Lifes to short to give a s h- ite about silly things

have a laugh and live every day as if its your last as one day it will be :eek:

Oh! and yes I have worked on them(vector 1 & 2), and done the coarse after I finished throwing up from the too many drinks from the night before, just missed the first hour, but I caught up :rolleyes:

[chillerman2006]

Buddy, you started to spew garbage like a child.
Case in point, you say "I also worked for Carrier (united technologies) & when they brought out the Vector that was the end of the engineer...all they do now is change oil/filters & sensors, no technical abillity needed no more as a vector will compensate so well it will pull chilled with half a charge of refigerant and tell you whats wrong with it!"
Then you say " PS. Marshall ThermoKing, kick a** here, they fix anything!!!

Vectors for breakfast
:D"

What do you mean? They are good at dumping oil? Have you ever even worked on a Vector?
Anyways, I'm not here to insult.
I would just like to thank you for giving an effort but encourage you to open your mind and accept that others may know more than you. If your not carefull you may learn something from these guys. !

Cant handle my drink! was tea-total till you's started picking on me:eek:

Marshall's can fix anything...thats were everyone goes when their local firm cant fix it, and they get it sorted some real top engineers there & technical backup they have is second to none

I do believe the vector has resulted in lost jobs due to self diagnostics & much quicker to do maintenance just oil/filters & usual checks, no belts/pulleys, which has reduced time it takes. Plus has made them super reliable. Once the teething poblems were sorted, chargers & generators, still have sensor problems so I hear.

Spew like a child - I dont want to insult either:rolleyes:

If I missed a bit let me know & I'll be back tomorrow as I have to go fishing to sort out next weeks nosh, got one for this weekend, and now we are such close friends I know I can trust you not too tell my mrs:D

[install monkey]

chillerman -she needs a new thrust bearing and an oil change,just seen her leaving the fire station with ur misses and they were hobbling like john wayne!haha

[chillerman2006]

Damn!! I bet mr bartlett was there as well, grinning like a cheshire cat (apologies cat lovers & cheshire - got enough complaints here dont need no more)

#14 & #17 of

http://www.refrigeration-engineer.com/forums/showthread.php?32634-Humidity-causing-algae-and-moss

See I can take it !

ps .. core would do that celine dion, dont know any others

[chillerman2006]

Gents

you might find this post explains it all

http://www.refrigeration-engineer.com/forums/showthread.php?32722-Advice-on-heat-pump-siting-please&p=237178#post237178

or this one

http://www.refrigeration-engineer.com/forums/showthread.php?32537-related-to-proper-handling-of-home-type-copeland-scroll-compressor-(oil-related)&p=237170#post237170

You wont feel as touchy & might even learn something

[install monkey]

wasnt celine dion born COLIN DION ???

[chillerman2006]

wasnt celine dion born COLIN DION ???

I remember hearing something like that years ago maybe moggy knows !

[install monkey]

as long as it shaves its bum,port and storm spring to mind!

[Boss302]

i told the fella how to check 3 way valve, and got told its wrong

I never said that isn't how you check the 3 way valve. I was just trying to help the original poster. I could see him getting easily confused about the check valve. Seemed to me that he was thinking the check valve/service valve was just there to check the 3 way valve.

[chillerman2006]

I never said that isn't how you check the 3 way valve. I was just trying to help the original poster. I could see him getting easily confused about the check valve. Seemed to me that he was thinking the check valve/service valve was just there to check the 3 way valve.

Good evening Boss

I missread the post - My Mistake - twice

[Robert Hilton]

The only thing I have learned in two days is how quick my ribs & cheeks can compress !

I smell troll.

[chillerman2006]

I smell

Good Evening Robert

There are no Gas Sensors on here so if you kept it quiet, no-one would have known !
:D

[reeferj]

oh, fire!fire!!!!!!!fire!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

[reeferj]

anyway, thanks everyone for joining this stuff...........just for very technical problem, no personal ones! thanks!!

[reeferj]

after i think it over again, that cbcv works this way: let's say it is running at cool mode now, when heating is called, pilot solenoid is energized, the pressure at spring side is released, so the condenser pressure can push the piston against the spring pressure, so that the 3-way shifts to heat mode;

at this moment, if there is no cbcv to release the pressure to discharge vibe, which means that high condenser pressure always stays in the condenser to be against the piston, whenever cooling is called, solenoid is closed, the pressure at spring side has to be built up for a while until two pressures (spring's & discharge's) are big enough to push the 3-way piston to evap's side.

If cbcv exists, it release condenser's pressure to discharge vibe in heat mode, which lowers condenser pressure so much, so that two pressure (spring's & discharge's) can easily overcome condenser pressure, which improves the respond time in heat-to-cool mode.

I think I am right this time!!!!!

[nova]

Hi,

I think reeferj got it right. Also if we have truck unit with TherMax, cpbv is useless as thermax solenoid bleeds pressure from condenser.


-nova-

[Boss302]

Sounds like you got it now Reeferj

[chillerman2006]

Off topic - needed removing