BBC: Danfoss refund for Air-Source HeatPump System poor run costs

[Makeit go Right]

Video of BBC's Dominic Littlewood, called in by a retired policeman who spent over £10,000 on a heatpump heating system, only to find his energy bills went up instead of down, despite claims it could save up to 75 per cent on energy bills.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/b010vzmv

Looks undersized.

[TiredGeek]

Change the names, but otherwise it's the same sort of situation I'm in :(

Peter Snaith, heating engineer guy they used. Googled him, can't find any referance. Anyone know the contact details?

[Argus]

.


Yes, I saw that programme.

(Apologies to overseas posters as they may not be able to view the BBC programme link and the details in this post is specifically based on the UK domestic heat pump market).

In many respects I’m not surprised. There are a great many air source / water heat pumps sold into a market in the UK for which they are not the optimal solution – i.e. as semi replacements for boilers on existing wet systems.

Add to that this manufacturer’s dubious advertising claims, subsequently withdrawn at the insistence of the UK Advertising Standards Authority, made worse by the manufacturer’s head-in-the-sand approach to solving this customer’s problems.
Alledgedly he bought the equipment on the basis that they claimed a "up to 75%" reduction on his fuel bills - in this case, gas.

Here's a summary of thier adjudication in a link to their site.

http://www.asa.org.uk/Asa-Action/Adjudications/2008/12/Danfoss-Heat-Pumps-UK-Ltd/TF_ADJ_45416.aspx

It raises the issues brought to attention in the Energy Savings Trust’s recent report, “Getting Warmer”, on the state of heat pump installations in the UK and customer satisfaction, or more accurately, dissatisfaction.

One of the key conclusions in the report is that the continuing Achilles’ heels of these systems in the UK domestic market are the general poor standards of design and selection prevailing.

Sadly, some manufacturers choose to insulate themselves from their end-users via a chain of distributors and installers.

There’s a link to the EST’s report, worth a glance, at the foot of this link page. It addresses some of the issues raised in this programme.

http://www.energysavingtrust.org.uk/Media/node_1422/Getting-warmer-a-field-trial-of-heat-pumps-PDF



.

[r.bartlett]

This say's it all for me.. Unless you simply have no alternative you would be mad to get one of these things installed (or money to burn)

From the report:




Assuming a mid-range system efficiency, at current
electricity prices a ground source heat pump will
provide a payback on the marginal installation costs
compared with direct electric heating in 18 years. This
payback period increases to 29 and 47 years when
compared with new oil and gas boilers, respectively.
At current electricity prices an air source heat pump
will provide a payback on the marginal installation
costs compared with direct electric heating in 10
years. This payback period increases to 16 and 31
years when compared with new oil and gas boilers,
respectively. The difference in payback is due to
differences in capital costs of different heating
technologies and fuel prices. If energy prices increase,
as is being predicted; the Renewable Heat Incentive
(RHI) is enacted; and as heat pumps become cheaper
due to wider adoption and economies of scale,
payback periods could become shorter.

[Bigfreeze]

Ye guys in the UK have a real mess on your hands. You have organisations like the EST leading the charge on these things and they are basicly clueless. On top of that you've restricted alot of the better brands from entering the market and bringing sound advice because you won't allow test results from other reputable testing houses and insist on your own, so only big names like Daikin and Mitsi now rule the market and have been installing their crap every which way. And now ye have this moron claiming a 29yr payback on a heat pump when its been proven europe wide that its closer to 6-7 once installed with ufh and installed correctly.
I've said it here before and I'll say it again, its the regulators that caused this problem and there is a huge information vacuum about installation proceedures right throughout the UK. Even fridgies seem too lose the basics when it comes to heatpumps. Very simple principles like your condensing temp goes up your COP comes down.
I'm glad to see the guy who installed it got nailed but hes also ruining the reputation of the very few who are doing things right.

[r.bartlett]

Ye guys in the UK have a real mess on your hands. You have organisations like the EST leading the charge on these things and they are basicly clueless. On top of that you've restricted alot of the better brands from entering the market and bringing sound advice because you won't allow test results from other reputable testing houses and insist on your own, so only big names like Daikin and Mitsi now rule the market and have been installing their crap every which way. And now ye have this moron claiming a 29yr payback on a heat pump when its been proven europe wide that its closer to 6-7 once installed with ufh and installed correctly.
I've said it here before and I'll say it again, its the regulators that caused this problem and there is a huge information vacuum about installation proceedures right throughout the UK. Even fridgies seem too lose the basics when it comes to heatpumps. Very simple principles like your condensing temp goes up your COP comes down.
I'm glad to see the guy who installed it got nailed but hes also ruining the reputation of the very few who are doing things right.

Which moron are you refering to exactly?

[Bigfreeze]

Ye guys in the UK have a real mess on your hands. You have organisations like the EST leading the charge on these things and they are basicly clueless. On top of that you've restricted alot of the better brands from entering the market and bringing sound advice because you won't allow test results from other reputable testing houses and insist on your own, so only big names like Daikin and Mitsi now rule the market and have been installing their crap every which way. And now ye have this moron claiming a 29yr payback on a heat pump when its been proven europe wide that its closer to 6-7 once installed with ufh and installed correctly.
I've said it here before and I'll say it again, its the regulators that caused this problem and there is a huge information vacuum about installation proceedures right throughout the UK. Even fridgies seem too lose the basics when it comes to heatpumps. Very simple principles like your condensing temp goes up your COP comes down.
I'm glad to see the guy who installed it got nailed but hes also ruining the reputation of the very few who are doing things right.


Not you RB. The so called expert from the report :). Should have clarified that a bit more :)

[Grizzly]

Thanks for all the input Guys.
It makes interesting reading.
The Fujitsu monoblock unit that I would choose is not yet available in the UK.
Would all this have anything to do with the Huge utility companies trying to corner the market.
Just in time for the new government subsidies that will be coming out?
Grizzly

[Bigfreeze]

Thanks for all the input Guys.
It makes interesting reading.
The Fujitsu monoblock unit that I would choose is not yet available in the UK.
Would all this have anything to do with the Huge utility companies trying to corner the market.
Just in time for the new government subsidies that will be coming out?
Grizzly


I don't why people are obsessed with the Japanese name brands when it comes to heatpumps. You really need to look at proper heatpump companies throughout europe to see what decent heatpumps are all about. These guys have been specialising in this area of the market for 20 years plus. Not cobbling together a heatpump from an aircon unit just because the arse dropped out ot that market

[Grizzly]

Hi Bigfreeze.
Any links you could give? Maybe, just a general nod!
Or the benefit of your gained wisdom?
I did work with an Austrian Engineer and the ground source set up he had was indeed impressive.
Grizzly

[mad fridgie]

I do not think it is all about the heat pump, It is the application, heat pumps are no different than refrigeration, they follow all the same rules, but the heat pump industry does not understand how performace change when conditions change (OK a bit of understanding when ambient changes) but have little knowledge of condensing pressures

[r.bartlett]

Not you RB. The so called expert from the report :). Should have clarified that a bit more :)

Thanks for clearing that up I did have my little arse in my hand but hoped that was who you were refering too ;)

However I am keen to get hold of those Europe figures as I suspect they may include the rather attractive incentives France have been handing out to buyers ?

I remain against ASHP's as a sensible economical way of heating and would prefer the G.ment to issue free insulation upgrades before giving incentives to HP's

[Bigfreeze]

Look at the German system where they only give incentives based on COP. If you don't better 4 you get nothing and they're graduated upwards from there. I'll post up any easy calculation so you can figure out what the payback would be later. Here in Ireland we have grants for both insulation upgrades and heatpumps.

Grizzly have a look here, note how much larger the evaps are on these machines than the japanese units, especially the first two..

http://www.ochsnerireland.ie/ochsner-product-description.php?parent_id=26

http://www.heliotherm.com/en/air-source-heat-pump-split-design.html

http://www.nibe.eu/Domestic-heatingcooling/Airwater-heat-pumps/Product-range/

Air to water would always be my last choice when it comes to heat pumps though. I would always go ground source first if at all possible. Consistent running costs and much cheaper to run than air to water.

[r.bartlett]

Nibe don't seem to enjoy a good reputation here:

http://forums.moneysavingexpert.com/showthread.php?t=2959648&highlight=nibe

from the forum
Poor old Andy went from this:



08-03-2009, 9:02 PM
The manufacturer recommends this can be done. The advantage is that the loft is ALWAYS warmer than the outside temperature, more so in the Summer, so plenty of very cheap hot water coming up. The other night it was -4C outside and the loft never dropped below -1C (I fitted a remote thermometer so I can check this). Right now it's 2C out and 5C in the loft. On the other side of the coin, despite an outdoor temp of just 7C yesterday the Sun was warming the tiles meaning the loft was 15C, so the unit ran even more efficiently yesterday than it would have done if it was outdoors.

You will never pull ALL of the heat out of the loft as the loft is ventilated (as it should be) and you can feel a draft up there.

If at the very worst case the temp in the loft drops below -5C (very unlikely here) then the unit will shut down and I'll have to run the immersion for hot water and plug a fan heater in. I can't imagine that ever happening though as I am near the sea...

Draining of the condense is easy as the unit has a tray built in to catch the condense and it's simply a case of connecting this to a drain, which I have up there anyway as I also have whole house ducted A/C. The other bonus is that the condense goes into my rain water harvesting system, which in turn is used to flush the toilet and run the washing machine!

(You can tell I'm impressed with it, can't you?!)



To this in 8 months:


Last edited by Andy_WSM; 10-01-2011 at 1:21 PM.

Well, I have to completely agree with Cardew having given up on my Trianco Air to Water pump this Winter and have had it decommissioned and replaced with a gas combi-boiler, which has, so far, been trouble free.

The heat pump was repeatedly freezing up, rendering it useless when it was needed most and I got fed up of days with a cold house and / or no hot water and bills that didn't reflect the lack of heat!

Yes, this Winter has been exceptionally cold, especially throughout December when the pump was as good as useless, consuming vast amounts of power for little return.

On the flip side, I do have a whole house, Fujitsu, air to air system, fitted primarily as air conditioning, but as it's a heat pump, can be used for heating too - it provided me with heat faultlessly during the transition period that the air to water pump was down awaiting a boiler to be fitted.

The difference in the 2 systems is likely the quality and the design spec. The Trianco is rated to -5C, the Fujitsu to -15C, so system choice should be considered VERY carefully before any system is fitted.

The reason it didn't seem so important here a few years ago when I made my purchasing decision is that I live on the coast, with a normal average Winter temperature of +7C. This last Winter has seen average temperatures of just +1C throughout December, with some exceptionally cold (-11C) nights. So, regardless of where you live I'd suggest any system is rated to cope with a worst case scenario, rather than the average seasonal temps.

It seems to me that gas boilers will carry on providing heat way beyond their system design temperatures, where as heat pumps cannot function beyond their design temperatures. i.e. at -10C a gas boiler will still run and provide heat into the house, but a heat pump may well freeze up and stop providing much, if any heat at all.




My contention is that a 'A' spec condensing gas boiler system will be far more economical in whole life costs than any heat pump system...

My main concern is that the quality of the housing stock is so poor in the UK and we are reluctant to pull down or referbish crappy old houses that our energy consumption is far too high. There should be G.ment enforcement to insulate old houses to a set standard and new houses should be forced to insulate to Scandinavian levels.

That is where the real energy savings are to be made and ironically almost every HP installer insists that the level of insulation is increased because they know they cannot supply the heat required from the present 'domestic' range

Of course they then tell everyone how much lower their energy costs are (or not in most cases) forgetting that if they had a gas combi installed c/w the same insulation upgrade then they would be saving even more..

By compairing their old energy spend with the new one is disingenious and very biased against the old gas/oil system...

[Bigfreeze]

It all depends on application RB. Yes if you put heat pumps on rads, the COP will drop through the floor. That should be obvious to any fridgie. But used correctly in conjunction with a UFH system a gas or oil boiler will cost at least 3-4 times as much to run. I see it everyday. I myself have installed retrofits of HP's on to Houses that brought their running costs from €2,500 a year on oil down to €750 on a heat pump. But that was good equipment, with proper installation proceedures and the application was right.
Troting out posts by various people about different systems does not prove a system good or bad, as you know nothing about the application, the execution or the suitability to the job in the first place.
The fact remains, that most people don't know how a heat pump should be installed. They're told companies like Daikin and Mits that they are the best units and can be installed any which way and thats the standard thats followed. Any system that is installed where it is not suited will fail and thats the main lesson that needs to be learned here.

[r.bartlett]

It all depends on application RB. Yes if you put heat pumps on rads, the COP will drop through the floor. That should be obvious to any fridgie. But used correctly in conjunction with a UFH system a gas or oil boiler will cost at least 3-4 times as much to run. I see it everyday. I myself have installed retrofits of HP's on to Houses that brought their running costs from €2,500 a year on oil down to €750 on a heat pump. But that was good equipment, with proper installation proceedures and the application was right.
Troting out posts by various people about different systems does not prove a system good or bad, as you know nothing about the application, the execution or the suitability to the job in the first place.
The fact remains, that most people don't know how a heat pump should be installed. They're told companies like Daikin and Mits that they are the best units and can be installed any which way and thats the standard thats followed. Any system that is installed where it is not suited will fail and thats the main lesson that needs to be learned here.


BG,

I apologise for the quoted posts. I was just amused by the complete vlote face old matey boy had in such a short space of time it was irresistable :D

Let me be totally clear if I ever get an enquiry for such a system I shall be coming to you to sub it out. 1300 Euro's PA is a massive saving and not one I have heard of. But does that include a big upgrade in insulation?

[Bigfreeze]

No, straight swap onto a ufh system, fresh dhw system and a buffer because there was stats. Its far from rocket science but it does require the application to be right. I've never installed on rads because I know the effect it has on COP so just refuse. Others have come behind me and saw no problem in doing so and installed a unit but thats their call. My reputation is more important to me than to just make another sale and damn the customer.