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botrous
19-09-2005, 10:08 PM
Hi mates , anyone can point me to a book that contains the exact methods of selecting cold rooms system components and contains a comparison between different methods of load calculation

Thanks for help

Brian_UK
19-09-2005, 10:58 PM
Or,.... you could spend a vast sum of money and buy the latest software...

perhaps not but have a look anyway.. http://www.coolit.co.za/coldroom/

botrous
19-09-2005, 11:44 PM
Hi Brian , thanks for you reply . . .
Unfortunably , i need a book for teaching purpose :)

But i do have almost the same software (in french) and for free , it's developped by a Phd french professor and it's totally free with the same options as the one you pointed me to , it's called (charge frigorifique) so if you are interrested , you can email me or say that here :)

And guys the offer isn't limitted to Brian , anyone who wants it just post your emails and you will get it for sure . . . but again it's in french

Best regards

US Iceman
20-09-2005, 12:55 AM
Hi guys,

Here is some additional information and places to look at for load calculations for storage or cooling:

http://www.heatcraftrpd.com/software/software.htm

http://www.elitesoft.com/web/newsroom/refrig1.htm

http://www.fao.org/documents/show_cdr.asp?url_file=/docrep/003/v3630e/V3630E09.htm

http://www.ba.ars.usda.gov/hb66/012heat.pdf

http://www.climaticcontrol.com/info/jjzgate/Infotec/Info-Tecs21-30/Infotec_21(rev1).htm

Some of the above are advertisements for software:( , other links have some solid information.;)

Hope this is useful.

Regards,
US Iceman

US Iceman
20-09-2005, 01:07 AM
Hi Botrous,

The only "book" I am aware of for load calculations is available from Krack Coil here in the US. They have a very nice and simple method used for this purpose.

Their website address is:

http://www.krack.com/

The book was recently republished for the first time in many years. Perhaps you can send them an email and see if they will send you copies, or, a PDF of the book.

If I think of any more sources I'll let you know.

BTW, can you send me a copy of the heat transfer information you got from Carlos Hansen (I think I spelled this right, my apologies if I am mistaken)?

Regards,
US Iceman

PobodysNerfect
20-09-2005, 02:48 AM
Unfortunably , i need a book for teaching purpose

If it is for teaching purpose shouldn't you make your own program in Excel or similar, so it easy to se the different loads. You can then use the commercial programs to "verify" your calculation.

I think the most complicated part is heat influx through doors and truck ports etc. As this newer will be exact anyway, it may be better - definitely easier - to use an air change factor.

Saludos,

Jan

Servicefrigo
20-09-2005, 06:21 AM
Hy everyone
I already have get it the coldroom de luxe, from info coolit since dec 2004.At that date they have for free a demo version .I don't now if is available and now but make a try.

botrous
20-09-2005, 11:02 AM
If it is for teaching purpose shouldn't you make your own program in Excel or similar, so it easy to se the different loads. You can then use the commercial programs to "verify" your calculation.

I said it's for teaching pirpose , I need the book , i have excel files and softwares to do the calculation , but how will i teach students on the right method to do calculations with a softawar , they should know how to do it using their brains before they switch to software calculations . . .

Regards

botrous
20-09-2005, 11:04 AM
BTW, can you send me a copy of the heat transfer information you got from Carlos Hansen (I think I spelled this right, my apologies if I am mistaken)?

Regards,
US Iceman

Sure US Iceman I'll send you the book , but I need your email adress , please send it to me via private message or email and you will get what you want :)

And man thnaks for the links your provided , some are good , the others :mad: as you said jud ads

Regards

Mahmoud
20-09-2005, 11:20 AM
Hello IceMAn..

HeatCraft have the best engineering manual not only the load estimation software..it is called Engineering Manual (H-Eng1) Puplished June 1990 i think they have revised that, it have all the fundementals, besides the ASHRAE handbook (Both Refrigeration & Fundementals) but it is complicated a little bit than the hearcraft..

regards..

US Iceman
20-09-2005, 02:36 PM
Hi Guys,

Botrous makes a very good case against using software. I have seen a tendency for newer people to rush out and buy software to solve their problems.

After all, it is much faster to use the software rather than to use a pencil and paper.;)

However, it is my opinion that using software to learn a subject is very dangerous. Students (or less experienced persons) tend to assume they understand what the software input data is. Another problem is that the program supplies "answers".

I had a friend who was a structural engineer. A younger co-worker used a program to size steel for a building. When the young guy was finished with the program he said, here's the answer!

The problem was, the steel he selected had sufficient strength, but it was too flexible. You will see this is new office buildings sometimes. The floors feel like they are bouncing. Right answers, wrong results.

A program only crunches numbers. Numbers IN, Numbers OUT. And... the program is only as good as the person who wrote it.

People should have a good understanding of the methods and logic used to develop an answer. The best way to get this is to do repetitive hand calculations using an accepted method.

You have to develop a "feel" for what the correct answer is. I call this a sanity check.

Some of the ASHRAE material can be a intimidating since it was basically written by professors for other professors.


I think the most complicated part is heat influx through doors and truck ports etc. As this never will be exact anyway

I completely agree. This is one area where assumptions are involved and play a critical part of the total loads.


HeatCraft have the best engineering manual not only the load estimation software..it is called Engineering Manual (H-Eng1) Published June 1990

I have seen this before. It is similar to the Krack manual I described. This is also a good source.

Another potential problem area is product loads. If we use the actual specific heats, latent heats, etc. to determine the cooling loads, we can be short of capacity, if the owner decides to use a different product at a later date.

A safer method is use to the specific and latent heat of water to determine the product cooling loads. The owner can use anything, and the system will still work. This does make the system larger, but with this method it is more flexible and adaptable to changes.

Some thoughts for your review....

Regards,
US Iceman

botrous
20-09-2005, 02:57 PM
100 % agree with you US Iceman about the teaching methods

Derek
20-09-2005, 05:02 PM
Institue of Refrigeration does a very good cold store design guide book. Used it for our apprentice scheme some years back.

www.ior.org.uk

There used to be good Searle guide from the old days 1980 ish (IP Units only) may have a copy in the attic. Will have a look if your interested.

Derek

botrous
20-09-2005, 09:05 PM
I'll check it , thanks Derek

Peter_1
20-09-2005, 09:32 PM
Hi Brian , thanks for you reply . . .
Unfortunably , i need a book for teaching purpose :)

But i do have almost the same software (in french) and for free , it's developped by a Phd french professor and it's totally free with the same options as the one you pointed me to , it's called (charge frigorifique) so if you are interrested , you can email me or say that here :)

And guys the offer isn't limitted to Brian , anyone who wants it just post your emails and you will get it for sure . . . but again it's in french

Best regards

Veut-tu m'envoyer une copie svp? J'ai aussi trouvé via Bearshare (P2P) quelques logiciels qui peuvent être intéressant pour vous. Tu peut y trouver aussi quelquefois des livres d'ASHRAE.
Cerche sur ASHRAE, refrigeration, HVAC,...

botrous
20-09-2005, 09:45 PM
Veut-tu m'envoyer une copie svp? J'ai aussi trouvé via Bearshare (P2P) quelques logiciels qui peuvent être intéressant pour vous

Soit sure et cetrain Peter que tu auras le logiciel le plus rapide possible (comme ca j'aurai un opinion d'expert sur la fiabilité de ce logiciel :) ) , mais j'ai besoin de ton adress email pour l'envoyer , le mien est send2pierre@hotmail.com , envoi moi ton adress et le logiciel sera chez toi . . . .
Pour le logiciel P2P Bearshare qu'on a parlé l'autre fois , je l'ai installé sur mon ordinateur mais il a fait des problemes donc je l'ai relevé , sa serait interessant si tu peut m'envoyer ces logiciel que tu juges interessant pour moi . . .
Et merci beaucoup d'avance

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