R407c vs R410A

[Abdullah1986]

Dear All,

How does r407c compare with r410A. How is one superior over the other in terms of functionality. I've heard people telling me that r407c is superior. In what way, I have no idea....please share your thoughts and ideas...

Thank you,

Abdullah

[Quality]

It depends on the application ???

[chilliwilly]

Every refrigerant has different properties and will behave differently in systems that they are not designed to be used in. There's no such thing as a superior refrigerant, but there's an ideal one for a certain application.

The old CFCs such as R12 had ideal properties, and had a good enthalpy chart characterisics. Isceon 49 also has a good enthalpy chart characterisitcs, that is almost matched to the old CFCs and can be used as a drop in replacement without having to modify the system. But it won't be any where near the characteristics of some of the blended replacements found today.

You would normally expect to find 410a in mid temperature airconditioning applications, but I've never come across it for low temperature refrigeration. But I have heard stories that it is used for low temperature applications as well as mid temperature ones. I would imagine that the overall power consumption and design size, containing 410a. Would have a comparable difference to a low temperature system with 134a or 404a, but it may not be a favourable difference. Its all about "horses for courses".

[Abdullah1986]

well the application in this particular case is air conditioning and dehumidification of an indoor swimming pool. The unit will be dealing with high temperature range of Saudi Arabia up to 115 Degree F in summers and down to 44 degree F. What do you think?

[NoNickName]

For that ambient temperature, both are suitable. My choice would go for R410A, but in your country you may find supplies of R410A scarcer than R407C.

[Abdullah1986]

thanks...but speaking in terms of properties, which one is longer lasting, gives better performance, and easily sourced....and in here, well we're still on R22. The unit we'll be buying for this application will be from North America so both the choices we have are not easily available in here....

[DrFreezeMD]

I myself just came from Kuwait and Iraq and I can say the understanding in potentially hot climates, R410A is not a good choice. R-407C is the better choice for this application. R-407C worked fine for us there as long as Superheat and Subcooling is in correct range and not excessive. R410A units were known to not function properly.:cool:

[chilliwilly]

If its likely that R22 is going to be around for the next ten years or so, and you have a good supply of it. Go for a system with R22. In terms of life span of *****, they will all last as long as each other. Again perfomance is all down to application, and what the manufacturers design choice of gas for their system.

Once you have your heat load calculated, there will be several different manufacturers stipulating certain sized units. And containing different gases for your application. Mits tend to use 410a on the majority of their splits, and Daikin may choose to use 407c, both will cool just as good as a unit containing a different gas. It will also depend on the choice of compressor regarding its sweep/stroke volume, and whether variable speed or fixed speed. Again its horses for courses, and supply and demand of spares.

[Abdullah1986]

@ DrFreeze, is there any litterature or some technical data that should prove that r407c would be a better choice for high ambient conditions...
@chillywilly, thanks...the problem is we can't use R22 because these units will be imported from the US which means that they cannot be R22...The choice we have is between R410A and R407C...but another refrigerant we have here that is gaining popularity among manufacturers is R134A....If say in the future, we have no supply of either R410A or R407C here in Saudi, could anyone of the compressors (built for either r410a or r407c) be scrolled with R134A...or at least easily changeable...
Thank you

[chilliwilly]

I don't think you will be able to retrofit 134a in a 410a system, it's unheard of but don't quote me on it. If you check with the chemical companies compatibillity charts, that will guide you further.

I didn't know the US had banned the virgin use of R22 as yet, but I know that UK and most of Europe have. 134a has been used in the UK for around 15 years now, especially in cars. And it has proven to be a wise choice for low and mid temperature refrigeration and air conditioning applications. Again its all down to design and manufacturers choice, and their opinion of ideal results for environmental conditions.

edit

I should imagine the supply of 410a will become more widely available in most countries that are starting to use 410a in their units. As it is an interim/long term replacement, it would be in the interest of the wholesalers/agents that sell the products containing it to supply and sell it as well. Or at least reccomend they have a storage depot nearby. If not it would be like a Ford dealership reccomending the use of unleaded petrol/gas in their cars, but having no petrol/gas stations nearby.

[Abdullah1986]

thanks....US has infact banned the use of virgin R22 gas in new manufactures......I presume that compressors built for 134a should be compatible with 407c since 53% of 407 is 134. But then again, this is strictly based on assumptions......

[Sridhar1312]

R-410 A is high pressure refrigerant compared to R407C.with high ambient the discharge pressure and power consumption is bound to increase.
Hence R-407C is more suitable for high ambient conditions.

[chilliwilly]

Here's a snippet you may find interesting and helpful.

http://www2.dupont.com/DuPont_Home/en_US/index.html

[Sserrviceman]

From Copeland:
The ZP scroll compressor is a unique design for R410 refrigerant and must never be replaced with a ZR scroll compressor. R410 has greater enthalpy per unit volume than R22. For this reason the displacement is smaller vs. motor power in the ZP scroll than equivalent capacity R22 compressor. Using an R22 compressor in a R410A system may cause the compressor to stall. Conversely using a R410A compressor in an R22 system would result in drastic system capacity reduction.

[Abdullah1986]

and what about scrolling r407c in a r134a compressor or vice versa?? would that be compatible??

[sendhilkmar]

Using R134a in R407C compressor is possible as R407 C pressures are high. Ofcourse there would be a huge difference in performance (Capacity)

[NoNickName]

Depends on the high pressure switch and safety valve settings. They may blow out if set of R134a.

[doctor freon]

R407C was invented to match R-22 pressure, temperature, enthalpy etc. properties and works well in systems designed originally for using R-22. R-410A was developed and systems were designed specifically for it to take advangtage of its unique thermodynamic properties. Whatever you do , your best results will be if you use a refrigerant in a system that was designed for it. R407C and R410A will both be around for a long time. R-22 is being phased out, but will still be available for a while and cost in future is unknown.

[phs]

From Copeland:
The ZP scroll compressor is a unique design for R410 refrigerant and must never be replaced with a ZR scroll compressor. R410 has greater enthalpy per unit volume than R22. For this reason the displacement is smaller vs. motor power in the ZP scroll than equivalent capacity R22 compressor. Using an R22 compressor in a R410A system may cause the compressor to stall. Conversely using a R410A compressor in an R22 system would result in drastic system capacity reduction.



its funny u say that i looked at a job the other day where the installer had dropped 22 in a 410a unit and the temp drop over the coil was 25% less that what 410a system should pump out ,, any long term affects ?????

[thermokool]

r407c has r134a in it
this would have a high side pressure 396 psig? @ 142 Degree f liquid?
but r410a would be at 555 psig? @ 142 Degree f liquid?