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Kevin Yeo
09-08-2005, 05:55 AM
Dear Guys,

I'm compiling some general presentation material for supermarket refrigeration system. Targetted at air cond contractors who are interested into refrigeration market.

Any good suggestion? All I have in mind is
-to discuss on showcase accessories and parts
-how to select a condensing unit, piping design, control & distribution of liquid refrigerant.
-condensing unit or multiset system
-accessories for condensing unit comparing to air cond system
Anyone has done something like that?

Rgds,
Thanks,
Kevin

Andy W
09-08-2005, 07:15 AM
Not wanting to open a can of worms but an engineer who has only installed split air conditioners is not a lot of use on the varied range of commercial & industrial refrigeration systems out there, the two fields are totally different, a refrigeration engineer can switch over from fridge to air con no problem (perhaps a little more research & training on VRV's) what you should be doing is offering actual refrigeration training. My views are my own only and as experienced during my spells as service manager, contracts manager and engineering manager and with working with a lot of engineers of varying ability during the last 27 years.

Kevin Yeo
09-08-2005, 07:20 AM
Dear Andy,

Appreciate your reply.

bluzman425
09-08-2005, 02:14 PM
Check out Copelands site. They have just released new marketing targeting supermarket and food service customers. This is good information to get you familiar with the supermarket products. I will agree that it is DEFINATEY a different breed than A/C. Mess one of these up and you will be buying a lot of food. Good Luck!

US Iceman
09-08-2005, 02:37 PM
Dear Kevin,

My experience with A/C contractors doing refrigeration is similar to those of bluzman425 and Andy. I have been on a lot of jobs where A/C people (at least the ones I have been exposed to) do not understand refrigeration.

This is not to say all A/C people fall into this category, but I do agree with Andy's comments. It is easier for a refrigeration tech to switch between high, medium, and low temperature applications, than it is for most A/C people to switch from high temp to anything else.

If your interest is in selling refrigeration equipment to other contractors, be prepared to answer a lot of questions and project visits.

My opinion only, but also based on over 35 years plus. I would highly recommend the refrigeration training classes first.

Best Regards,
US Iceman

frank
09-08-2005, 08:24 PM
the two fields are totally different, a refrigeration engineer can switch over from fridge to air con no problem (perhaps a little more research & training on VRV's)

And perhaps the other way around also :)

Kevin Yeo
10-08-2005, 05:51 AM
Dear Bluzman,

I'm just wondering if i can get the URL from you regarding refrigeration material from Copeland.

Thanks,
Kevin

fraij
10-08-2005, 01:36 PM
Kevin, try to focus on the installation and the commissioning of the refrigeration system and make it the same or easier than the A/C system. The main issue to the contractors is to install and commission the units quickly and thoroughly without facing any problems.

By the way, usually if the A/C people good in understanding how the A/C unit works they would be good also in understanding how the refrigeration unit works. The only difference is that what pressure and temperature the system will works at.

Regards

A. Fraij

Andy W
10-08-2005, 04:43 PM
By the way, usually if the A/C people good in understanding how the A/C unit works they would be good also in understanding how the refrigeration unit works. The only difference is that what pressure and temperature the system will works at.And the understanding of electric defrost, hot gas defrost, saturated vapour defrost, defrost controllers, defrost termination, fan delays, oil recovery, high, low & medium back pressures, different evaporating temperatures, sizing and fitting alternative expansion valves, fitting different control systems into something not originally designed for state of the art electronics, cylinder unloaders, star delta, part winding start evap pressure regulators, crankcase pressure regulators, head pressure regulators..............the list goes on and on. I stand by what I say, a refrigeration engineer has a vast knowledge through years of experience, no offence to air conditioning engineers but you can teach joe bloggs in a day how to install a split type air conditioner and to understand how it operates, over the years I have trained up many young lads who have gone on to be good refrigeration engineers, the lads who we had who could not cope with refrigeration work moved on to air conditioning maintenance companies, a good all round refrigeration engineer is now a rare beast.

frank
10-08-2005, 08:02 PM
no offence to air conditioning engineers but you can teach joe bloggs in a day how to install a split type air conditioner and to understand how it operates,

Why do you think that AC engineers only fit splits?

We air condition 2000 seat bingo halls to achieve 21C at table top height - you can't do this with splits. What about air change rates? smoke extraction? these all have an effect on load. What about the 2000 seat club being only part full? this also has an effect on load.

There is much more to air conditioning than fitting splits :(

Andy W
10-08-2005, 10:53 PM
Why do you think that AC engineers only fit splits?

We air condition 2000 seat bingo halls to achieve 21C at table top height - you can't do this with splits. What about air change rates? smoke extraction? these all have an effect on load. What about the 2000 seat club being only part full? this also has an effect on load.

There is much more to air conditioning than fitting splits :(Yes I do know there is more to air con than fitting splits I have been involved in plenty of projects, I am generalising on my own experience and the local companies that I do know of who install only splits. I personally have air conditioned night clubs, operating theatres, telecommunications centres in remote locations but my point is give an engineer who is used to installing splits a DX coil and tell him to fit it into that length of ducting or into that air handler, size up a valve, fit a LG mixer valve and hot gas capacity control, hook it up to the PLC in that control panel there I bet the AC engineer would look at you blankly, the fridge guy would have more of an idea of what to do, like I said it is from my experiences of 27 years in the trade and working for commercial and industrial refrigeration companies, air conditioning only companies as well building services companies and also from an engineers point of view as well as a service manager dishing out the calls to so called engineers who are carried by the other engineers, an enginnering manager designing systems and a contracts manger trying to find people on the company who are capable of installing a good job.

fraij
16-08-2005, 09:18 AM
Dear All,

I am not trying to compare between Air conditioning and refrigeration engineers! Both are good. I am trying to give advice to Kevin that some contactors will be understanding refrigeration in a pretty good level so he wouldn't surprise if one ask him a smart question.

Anyway, I have mention that it seems Andy does not has pretty good idea about air conditioning field. All things he has mentioned apply to the A/C units, for intance, in heat pump units we use all types of defrost controllers, oil separators, pressure regulators...etc.

Andy, A/C field is not only mini-split units!

Reagrsd

A. Fraij

Lc_shi
16-08-2005, 09:55 AM
Dear sir
I think the diff between AC and refrigeration guy is not due to the principle but its application area. My education is mainly focused on refrigeration. I can understand compressor \condenser\evaporator\TXV etc well, but feel hard to use psychrometric chart. AC guy is more keen at air paremeters and refrigeration guy is more keen at refrigerant. Of course,you can be good at both field if you spend enough time and work experience,but I think it's unnecessary:)

rgds
LC

Renato RR
24-03-2006, 01:29 PM
The man who wants to learn refrigeration will at the end bee good.The one who wants money from refrigeration will blow up things.So it is mater of mind and love to that kind of work.
I work AC and refrigeration and still learning.So I dont see the problem.

Renato

munesh
31-01-2007, 02:18 PM
Need to know more about the supermarket cooling

Can I get names of some of the prominent players in India

munesh
31-01-2007, 02:21 PM
Please send me information about the players in India involved in the Supermarket cooling

LRAC
31-01-2007, 08:35 PM
This thread is turning into the time old question who is better a/c or fridge engineer, it doesn't matter what you think about each other we all do our days work for a days pay. If you don't like a/c you do fridge and vice a versa.

I am biased from my previous postings the fridge guy understands what the refrigerent is doing and where, but that comment is directed at the split guys and i do understand that proper air conditioning and not just comfort cooling are completely different area's of the trade.

carrying on with the question who is best will turn you all into angry engineers.

Kind regards
Lrac

taz24
31-01-2007, 09:27 PM
carrying on with the question who is best will turn you all into angry engineers.

Kind regards
Lrac


Hi mate The dates say it all. This post ended last March. Someone has restarted it with a troll me thinks.

Cheers taz.

LRAC
31-01-2007, 11:07 PM
Hi mate The dates say it all. This post ended last March. Someone has restarted it with a troll me thinks.

Cheers taz.

had me again
Lrac

Brian_UK
31-01-2007, 11:56 PM
Yep reading back through this I wonder whether US_Iceman wants to 'edit' his post now that he's a Mod ? ;)

As a for Menush, forget him.

joe magee
01-02-2007, 04:11 AM
I love to see egos collide:)

munesh
01-02-2007, 01:13 PM
I tried the copeland site for the supermarket referigeration but could not get anything.
Would anyone please provide me the link so that I could get the details.
Is there anything else available where from I could get the details.