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joscon
09-02-2001, 04:39 AM
I must say that I was excited to see this site, however I'm alittel disappointed not seeing anything posted in this section.

Are there any other NH3 "stinky":-) techs out there or am I alone?

Please don't take me wrong as there is nothing wrong with the "little" machines,however a central system certanly has alot more personality. (my opinion)

subzero*psia
09-02-2001, 04:57 AM
Hey Stinky...

No, I am not an ammonia tech. But from what I have seen it just looks like a huge system. In fact a buddy of mine says it is very much like a captube system. Can't say for myself, haven't really worked on it.

I think it looks very interesting... is the payscale any better? I am very seriously looking to get back into refrigeration... I am a sick individual... the greater the capacity the more I like it. Nothing like a Niagra to stiffen things up a bit. LOL!

By the way, I thought the goal was not to stink.

WebRam
21-02-2001, 12:21 AM
I have had quite a few people email me privately asking about "Stinky" and training for this area.

Any ideas?

joscon
22-02-2001, 12:09 AM
The best training (other then on the job) for industrial refrg. I have come accross is the R.E.T.A. courses Ind. I & II. (For those of you that don't know RETA is: Refrigeration engineers & technicians association).

One thing people need to realize is that industrial refrg. is not too much different then any other(the basic cycle never changes), just bigger & has some components not found on commercial equipment.

I think that when someone first sees a big central system, they become overwhelmed by it's size.
After they calm down & look over the system, however most people came figure out it's operation.

Cool-Ed
14-03-2001, 11:21 PM
Yes there are a few of us out there, but not all employed since SPL ****ed it up for us. I've now been in the industrial game a long time thanks to Rock in the mid 80s, so I've well and truly developed the fridge engineers smile. (To the uninitiated that is the contortions your face goes into after a whiff of R717, as displayed on the smiley)The industrial game also has a bigger share of prima donnas than any other.

Steve
14-03-2001, 11:55 PM
As a commercial engineer I had to cover a couple of ammonia sites untill the industrial guys could turn up. 5am calls for when the alarm claxon used to go off for no reason and wake the entire welsh valley where this site was.:(

Used to double up with the industrial guys when they where about to learn a bit more. Me in the escape mask because of the god awful stench and them just grinning at me saying this was nothing :confused:

Stick to commercial me thinks :cool:

Cool-Ed
15-03-2001, 12:23 AM
Well Steve I hope it taught you a lesson not to have covered for them, as it could have resulted in an incident which could have then involved the HSE. Even with my experience I've had an incident that involved HSE when a passer-by saw a way of making a quick buck put in a complaint and even though after the HSE were satisfied all precautions and working practices where correctly in place, he still put his claim into the company, yet we were in the thick of it without a problem, you also do not attempt to enter any area in an escape mask, as it suggests it is only for escape, but even in a full BA (after training of course) you DO NOT attempt to enter the area alone or without someone on stand-by in another BA should you come into difficulty. If the leak is so bad it is a cloud then no attempt should be made to enter the area but to ensure the area is evacuated and that the Fire Brigade have been called, as special suits will be required as well as full BA. I hope thats been some help to you and that I'm not teaching you to suck eggs. Good luck.

Steve
15-03-2001, 08:27 AM
I did a couple of ammonia courses and we where only really there to hold the fort untill the industrial guys turned up.

Like most fridge calls though it was usually a control fault and the occasional pump cavitating or tripped out, we never actually had any ammonia leaks.

If there had been you would not have seen me for dust :D

I did find it intresting though as any change from the norm always is.

Cool-Ed
15-03-2001, 10:40 PM
Did you want to add anything Frosty

Frosty
17-03-2001, 07:06 PM
Originally posted by Cool-Ed
Did you want to add anything Frosty

Hi all

Personally, I much prefer to work with NH3, you know where you stand with it. I have had many years with Ammonia systems ranging from DX, through to pump circ and flooded low pressure receiver systems. Working with NH3 provides you with some serious education as well(you need to know what your doing). So come on you commercial boys, ditch those TEV's, you don't know what your missing!!!!

Frosty
17-03-2001, 07:07 PM
Originally posted by Frosty

Originally posted by Cool-Ed
Did you want to add anything Frosty

Hi all

Personally, I much prefer to work with NH3, you know where you stand with it. I have had many years with Ammonia systems ranging from DX, through to pump circ and flooded low pressure receiver systems. Working with NH3 provides you with some serious education as well(you need to know what your doing). So come on you commercial boys, ditch those TEV's, you don't know what your missing!!!!

PS Why does it list me as an appretice? I must have served the longest apprenticeship ever!

WebRam
17-03-2001, 07:12 PM
look in the page announcement section Frosty :)

Cool-Ed
17-03-2001, 07:28 PM
I agree we can have very taxing situations at times no matter what the application, but that is where experience proves effective doesn't it chaps?

Frosty
18-03-2001, 12:40 AM
Originally posted by fridgetech
You're most likely labelled as an apprentive engineer because you've retired from the challenges of the industry to the back waters with Star :)

Pumped liquid systems, ammonia or not, are far simpler and even idiot proof compared to working with DX TEV systems. Especially if you want to be good at what you do.
Hey guys, we are certainly not relinguishing in the 'back waters' I agree, pump circ systems are old hat, we are now into volatile CO2 systems, what about the rest of you? still playing with R22/404A DX?

Cool-Ed
18-03-2001, 12:38 PM
We'll let you experiment with it and the rest of us will pick up the pieces and improve on it!!!

Cool-Ed
18-03-2001, 02:06 PM
Well said Marc, but the problem arises when these people design this stuff, we're left to pick up the pieces as I said.

Cool-Ed
18-03-2001, 04:50 PM
Maybe its not the uniforms but their hoses they like to play with.

Cool-Ed
18-03-2001, 06:28 PM
Originally posted by fridgetech
I can just picture the Star engineers:) When I was a kid in the Rhodesian summer heat we used to hang round the club swimming pool. When the ice cream man came riding his dry ice cooled box tricycle we all used to go nuts. We used spend out ice cream money buying dry ice, screw the ice cream, you know how much fun it is playing with dry ice in the swimming pool? Great fun when you're a kid. Volatile stuff I tell you, that's why it was so much fun :)

I can't see the Star engineers playing with any hose other than the one you suggest:) I mean when they want to charge a system they just have to ride their tricycle into the plant room and throw blocks of dry ice into the system :)
They'll all be wearing firemans uniform and ringing their little bells making money on the side selling dry ice to the kids on the block :)
It seems to have gone very quiet on the frosty front, but maybe as the company name suggests he only shines and comes out at night.

Frosty
18-03-2001, 08:05 PM
Originally posted by fridgetech
So Star Refrigeration are working on some oversized fire extenguishing plant hey. Whenever I play with my CO<sub>2</sub> fire extinguisher I'll think of Star.

I wonder what the dangers of leaking CO<sub>2</sub> are, induced hyperventilation perhaps?

What happens when it leaks, you get showered with CO<sub>2</sub> snow (Dry Ice powder)? Dry Ice has twice the letent heat of melting that water ice does so things could get a little chilly. But then at atmospheric pressure Dry Ice volatizes, or should we say sublimes, so in one straight act it absorbs both heat of melting and heat of evaporation with specific between.

So for a typical -35°C SST and 40°C SDT what are the pressure and specific volume numbers, what is the average superheated gas C<sub>p</sub>/C<sub>v</sub> numbers during compression? What is the h<sub>-35°C SS-Gas</sub> - h<sub>40°C SC-Liguid</sub> number?

Why do Star think the fire extinguishers big brother is such a novelty?

Are Star engineers now walking around in firemans uniform?

Well you can carry on taking the piss if you want too, thats your perogative! But think about the future, what happens when the HFC's are banned and the only refrigerants available are hydrocarbons, what then? Who will still be in business?

Think on - open your minds, because CO2 is no more dangerous than NH3, in fact, it isn't as dangerous. By the way, CO2 has a critical temperature of 31 Degrees K, so has to be cascaded.

Steve
18-03-2001, 09:12 PM
Maybe Im missing something, but why are you slating "Star" is there some history here that we all dont know about....?

Dan
18-03-2001, 09:31 PM
This thread is interesting, being that I am in Florida and haven't a clue. I would hazard that in Marc's view, Star management is less than stellar. Still would like to learn more about CO2 fridge, though.

Dan

Cool-Ed
18-03-2001, 11:00 PM
Originally posted by fridgetech
<b><i>Well you can carry on taking the piss if you want too, thats your perogative!</b></i>

Why, thank you squire.

<b><i>But think about the future, what happens when the HFC's are banned and the only refrigerants available are hydrocarbons, what then? Who will still be in business?</b></i>

Who would you say?

I'd say anybody with an ordinary understanding of basic vapour compression refrigeration, absorption refrigeration, thermoacoustic refrigeration etc. etc.

Is CO<sub>2</sub> refrigeration not another example of the old industry standard vapour compression refrigeration? The stuff is highly soluble in water, perhaps we could look at CO<sub>2</sub> absorbtion too?

<b><i>Think on - open your minds.?</b></i>

Lol, that's rich coming from a Star fella don't you think :)

<b><i>Because CO2 is no more dangerous than NH3, in fact, it isn't as dangerous.</b></i>

You don't say :-)

<b><i>By the way, CO2 has a critical temperature of 31 Degrees K</b></i>

31K is what? -242°C? Are you sure? You don't perhaps want to sleep on that one?

<b><i>so has to be cascaded.</b></i>

Gosh, what do you cascade it with, helium?

I thought you guys were supposed to be familiar with the stuff? Why can't you give me operating pressures, densities, average isentropix index, and typically acheived specific enthalpy change? Perhaps you'd have to phone Glasgow for that info hey?
Marc there is no way I could compete with you in your ability to quote all the correct formuli without some sort of reference books, but you certainly have my interest with your radical views with certain applications, I am more than ready to listen, as I've always said I will listen to anyone with something to say, whether it turns out to be right or wrong, but at least you've learnt. Noboby knows it all, as some of the best engineers I have had the pleasure of working with have told me and I in pass on to others, as I've said in a previous post tye industrial game not only has bigger plant but, it also has the biggest PRIMA-DONNERS, most of whom are covering their own weaknesses and evenually creep that much they become management.(YES MEN)

Dan
19-03-2001, 01:34 AM
There is only one thing missing from this discussion:

Details about CO2 refrigeration systems.:)

Dan

Dan
19-03-2001, 02:19 AM
Huh?

Dan
19-03-2001, 02:22 AM
Ok. Found a good site. My apologies.

Dan

C J
22-03-2001, 04:42 PM
I do not know where you are located or how much your company has to spend for Tech school (s) , here is another web site to check out . They even offer courses over the internet with certificates of completion . It is
http://www.AMMONIA.COM , Industrial Consultants offer Initial HAZMAT, recurrent training , Level 1, 2 and level 3 certification . They also traing scene Commander and Train the Trainer courses. Hope this will help ....

Later C J