When does it become snake oil?

[mad fridgie]

I have designed a widget, that can increase net cooling effect by 55% without using any more power on a LT application. (R404a -30C SST, 35C SCT) This being a theoretical optimum maximum.
"Bull Shyte" I hear you say! Would you out right dismiss any product that claimed such a high level of performance increase? "just pure snake oil"
I know that any refrig system never runs under complete steady state conditions, therefore maximum optimum, is very rarely likely to be achieved, thus max possible savings will never be achieved.
At what point would you look at such a product.
If i said the SST ranged from -25C to -35C and your SCT ranged from 25C to 45C and your net increase in refrigeration effect averaged 10% across the range, would you look at this with an openly or disregard as snake oil again, especially if the widget used technologies and principles that were very new to you?

[Magoo]

geeeez MF.
get off your arz and sell the concept to Fontera. Go staright to the big guy thingo Ferria, the canuk guy. Then registar the design and possibly patent the widget concept.
magoo

[lowcool]

not black adder buy any chance

[Magoo]

Hi Low Cool.
black adder a favourite program, check his cod peice though, not a lot of equipment in it, yeeeha.

[mikeref]

Mad, If no-one had bothered to explore possibilities, where would we be today? Any one can claim efficiency increases, its the proof that counts. So patent the widget and get it ready to fly!!.. 10%, good, 2o%, maybe, 40%.. sounds like B.S... Mike.

[desA]

Proof-of-concept is your next step.

Too many ideas seem good on paper, until tested. :)

[NH3LVR]

Mad:
First of all I wish you great success with your invention. Although I might have some reservations without knowing the details, great innovations are always met with skepticism. I am sure the first guy who said they could recycle the condensate back to the steam boiler was looked at as odd.
That being said, all the greatly heralded inventions I have seen have ignored one fact: Refrigeration capacity is based on the amount of Refrigerant circulated through the system. Of course Subcooling, Superheat and Flash Gas also have an effect. But you need to evaporate more refrigerant to carry away more heat.
Let me know when you have it patented.

[mad fridgie]

Mad:
First of all I wish you great success with your invention. Although I might have some reservations without knowing the details, great innovations are always met with skepticism. I am sure the first guy who said they could recycle the condensate back to the steam boiler was looked at as odd.
That being said, all the greatly heralded inventions I have seen have ignored one fact: Refrigeration capacity is based on the amount of Refrigerant circulated through the system. Of course Subcooling, Superheat and Flash Gas also have an effect. But you need to evaporate more refrigerant to carry away more heat.
Let me know when you have it patented.
Thanks NH3 for your words of wisdom
I presently produce different patented systems that do use commonlly known principles which are applied differently, ie; my Avatar.
This is change for me from conceptual application, looking at how we can use what is already commomly known, to conceptual theory, hence the widget.
I have proven concept "a" by theory as stated amd practically where I am achieving approx 20-30% of optimum, whilst knowing where my problems lie between actual and optimum.
I have had independent academics look over the parts of the widget to confirm that at least in theory it also does work. (just incase i had missed the obvious)
I have laid my cards on the table to a large US multinational refrigeration component manufacturer. I just hope, I hope I do not get stiffed.
My practical goal is to achieve a constant 50% of optimum across a broad range of applications.
The answer to your technical observation is "YES"

[desA]

Provisional patent.
Proof-of-concept.
Final patent.
International patent protection.

Then only open discussions. You are being foolish in exposing your concepts too early, in my view. If any of us manage to break your code - you lose your innovative steps.

Marketing too early is not wise, in my view.

Yes, until you've proven your statements - it may very well be only snake-oil. :)

[mad fridgie]

Provisional patent.
Proof-of-concept.
Final patent.
International patent protection.

Then only open discussions. You are being foolish in exposing your concepts too early, in my view. If any of us manage to break your code - you lose your innovative steps.

Marketing too early is not wise, in my view.

Yes, until you've proven your statements - it may very well be only snake-oil. :)
To get full international patent takes close to 5 years, and close to $200,000, but of course you are right. During this period it is open to all, so can be copied. Especially by our freinds in Asia, who do not care about patents.

At present the theorectical max, is pure snake oil, even if it was not, in the short to medium term, it will always be classed as snake oil.
looking at other products like XTX, EEV, Arcticmaster, Savawatt,VSDs etc, all promote the therorectical max performance, indicating that it is being sold by a snake oil salesman, so should products like these be promoted with more realistic/practical data, if so would the take up be greater, knowing that you are not really get the wool pulled over your eyes.. Hence my original question.
As far as my "widget", I am sure, when fully design for a very specific system, in a lab, under test conditions very close to max could be achieved, but i know lab conditions do apply to the real world, so max is never (or at the very best rarely) going to be achieved. So how would market the data?

[desA]

So how would market the data?

In such a way as to make money. :D

[mad fridgie]

In such a way as to make money. :D
Saves energy, loose 90% of your body weight, makes you more attractive the opposite sex, keeps the house clean, and is the only implement you will ever need in the kitchen, Buy Now for 5 easy payments of $99.99,
But wait there is more, order in the next 5 minutes and get a free leak detection system, valued at $1,000,000,000,000.

I think that should do it.

[mikeref]

Mad, I can imagine you thought long and hard about posting your question, knowing there would be people out there curious enough to get a closer look at your work. With your concept having gone overseas, i would probably run with a local newspaper interview giving out just enough details to make interesting reading. This might help as proof incase some details... LEAK ..elsewhere.

[desA]

Mad, I can imagine you thought long and hard about posting your question, knowing there would be people out there curious enough to get a closer look at your work. With your concept having gone overseas, i would probably run with a local newspaper interview giving out just enough details to make interesting reading. This might help as proof incase some details... LEAK ..elsewhere.

The problem here is that once the idea gets out, all chance of patenting disappears into a distant vapour trail. This, in my view, is disingenuous.

MF, if your idea is so good, you would first tie up the IP. Too late to cry later once the horse has bolted.

[DTLarca]

I have designed a widget, that can increase net cooling effect by 55% without using any more power on a LT application. (R404a -30C SST, 35C SCT)

This sounds like an erroneous statement? Heisenberg's principle is not easily defied :)

[desA]

I'd suggest that the inventor plot the cycle both before & after addition of his widget. Using Coolpack could be a good place to begin.

[Segei]

I'm focused on energy efficiency for many years and I know how hard to save 10-20% of energy for properly designed and operated refrigeration plant. This is the reason that I'm skeptical about 30%, 40%, 50%...energy savings. Affinity law is behind VFDs, EEV can help to reduce head pressure and work done by compressor. Arcticmaster, savawatt are snake oil. In energy savings is very important to estimate efficiency of whole refrigeration plant and real life baseline operation should be chosen. However, I'm open to new approaches. Give us a hint. What are going to improve?

[mad fridgie]

Performance increase stated, was simulated using both coolpack and copeland select 7 (scroll compressor)
When designed on larger system and different compressor manufactures we still achieve the same net cooling effect, but a slight increase in power.
I did say a 55% increase in net cooling effect, not a 55% saving,
just for a second imagine that at optimum my figures are correct, but we do know that all refrigeration systems running conditions do change, so the widget will not run at optimum (I am practical and i know this). The performance increase will diminish, from a range of 55% to 0%, no negatives as far I as can asertain (this where most of my testing is focused)
Each system will have different levels of performance increase.
So from what I have just decribed
55% increase in theoratically possible, but practically is not, Would you be selling snake oil using these figures.
I am using the principles of!
"Carters Law of Widgetology"

[chillerman2006]

Thanks NH3 for your words of wisdom
I presently produce different patented systems that do use commonlly known principles which are applied differently, ie; my Avatar.
This is change for me from conceptual application, looking at how we can use what is already commomly known, to conceptual theory, hence the widget.
I have proven concept "a" by theory as stated amd practically where I am achieving approx 20-30% of optimum, whilst knowing where my problems lie between actual and optimum.
I have had independent academics look over the parts of the widget to confirm that at least in theory it also does work. (just incase i had missed the obvious)
I have laid my cards on the table to a large US multinational refrigeration component manufacturer. I just hope, I hope I do not get stiffed.
My practical goal is to achieve a constant 50% of optimum across a broad range of applications.
The answer to your technical observation is "YES"

Now I am this far I need to look into Boost ! Aswell

[mad fridgie]

This is not boost or i should say ecoboost in the UK and europe

[mad fridgie]

I am only a simpleton, I look for the simple not the excotic.

[chillerman2006]

This is not boost or i should say ecoboost in the UK and europe

Would this be the Flash Tanks (econimisers) that York currently run in their YCIV (variable speed screws)

The latest silver units in my pictures :o:o:o I have been working on ?

[mad fridgie]

No Boost is a machine that is attached to another refrigeration unit (this machine is being released in the UK soon, hence my up and coming visit, it has just taken time (lonnnnnnnnnnnng) to sort patents and copy rights.
Widget just uses the vessel, but unless we can resolve the stream issues the widget seems to be very tempremental, some times does as predicted other times no different and other times makes the system worse.
The widget is designed to increase the compressor mass flow (small to medium systems), hence increase the net refrigeration effect. Run out of cash, I will no longer be developing concepts, it just to damn hard to sell technology.

[chillerman2006]

No Boost is a machine that is attached to another refrigeration unit (this machine is being released in the UK soon, hence my up and coming visit, it has just taken time (lonnnnnnnnnnnng) to sort patents and copy rights.
Widget just uses the vessel, but unless we can resolve the stream issues the widget seems to be very tempremental, some times does as predicted other times no different and other times makes the system worse.
The widget is designed to increase the compressor mass flow (small to medium systems), hence increase the net refrigeration effect. Run out of cash, I will no longer be developing concepts, it just to damn hard to sell technology.

Argh ! after what you have done for me tonight, I wish i had an answer

[mikeref]

No Boost is a machine that is attached to another refrigeration unit (this machine is being released in the UK soon, hence my up and coming visit, it has just taken time (lonnnnnnnnnnnng) to sort patents and copy rights.
Widget just uses the vessel, but unless we can resolve the stream issues the widget seems to be very tempremental, some times does as predicted other times no different and other times makes the system worse.
The widget is designed to increase the compressor mass flow (small to medium systems), hence increase the net refrigeration effect. Run out of cash, I will no longer be developing concepts, it just to damn hard to sell technology.I feel your pain Mad. Banging your head against a wall, or caught between a rock and a hard place..http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=K8zzimrIN-s&feature=related

[mad fridgie]

I feel your pain Mad. Banging your head against a wall, or caught between a rock and a hard place..http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=K8zzimrIN-s&feature=related
"SPOT ON" mike

[MikeHolm]

Sometimes we all feel like Wiley. MF, the first thing to do is to send all the info to yourself and to a lawyer, un-opened. That way, at least, you can prove "prior art". I have little respect for patents myself. Once they are filed they are out there for everyone to see. At least if you build it on an as need or sold basis, locally, you will be able to build up that part of the business. It's a lot slower with a lack of investment money but with the investment money comes a LOT of pressure to perform. I have lost one business to pushy investors and i know many others who have lost out on either control or ownership.

Just my 2 cents worth. I'm not rich for a reason......damn it

[mad fridgie]

Sometimes we all feel like Wiley. MF, the first thing to do is to send all the info to yourself and to a lawyer, un-opened. That way, at least, you can prove "prior art". I have little respect for patents myself. Once they are filed they are out there for everyone to see. At least if you build it on an as need or sold basis, locally, you will be able to build up that part of the business. It's a lot slower with a lack of investment money but with the investment money comes a LOT of pressure to perform. I have lost one business to pushy investors and i know many others who have lost out on either control or ownership.

Just my 2 cents worth. I'm not rich for a reason......damn it

Unfortunatly development is some what more difficult that just building a system (even though I have spent a bit having ago) Because this is a different approach i am struggling to obtain practical information, and the component manufacturing theory is over head. It is really chicken and egg, to get investment i have some for of working proto type and to have a working prototype I need investment. Plus there is still risk, maybe i have missed some form of basic fundemental and maybe it will never work. I can not find any one who says it will not, different arguments on how well it will work.

[desA]

It's a lot slower with a lack of investment money but with the investment money comes a LOT of pressure to perform. I have lost one business to pushy investors and i know many others who have lost out on either control or ownership.

Wise words, Mike.

Gave a huge investment group the boot a few weeks ago. Signed an NDA, but felt that they were trying to gain additional info beyond the NDA limitations. Kept closing doors from my side. In the end, they were a waste of time & effort, but, thankfully I did not lose any IP. My product builds continued undamaged outside of their clutches.

Learning to box smarter in my old age. :)

[MikeHolm]

Looks like we have all gone down similar paths to the same conclusion. Mad, unless you can find an angel investor who just likes your idea, IMHO, and I hate to say this but it might be best to find govt support programs that can pair you up with either not quite enough money and/or some of the university brainpower that you may need.

we have some programs like that here but you have to spend a lot of time doing the paperwork for them and sometimes the University takes a percentage. None the less, they do weed out the vultures.

[MikeHolm]

To me NDAs aren't worth the paper they are printed on, although they are still necessary.

[mad fridgie]

To me NDAs aren't worth the paper they are printed on, although they are still necessary.
I am bring it into open forum "Carter widget revealed"

[desA]

Snake oil - he rub off. Widget, he shine like moon. Oh great and salubrious one.

[chillerman2006]

Snake oil !

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cqk5of8LgLE