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View Full Version : Interpreting the latest F gas and R22



Grizzly
27-10-2010, 09:57 PM
How should "We" advise a new customer.
If on the first maintenance visit to site.
A full 25kg bottle of R22 is discovered in their refrigerant gas cage?
Grizzly

monkey spanners
27-10-2010, 10:23 PM
Get sharpie and draw a little 'r' after the R22 then all will be well with the world :p

Or if you were doing things by the book i think it would need to be sent back so that the gas manufacturers can draw a little 'r' on it then customer can buy it back at £££ a kilo.

Its a mad world.

Jon :)

Quality
27-10-2010, 10:31 PM
Don`t say any thing sneak it into the van

only joking

It is ultimately their responsibility as they are the owners of it but it would be wise to explain that they should have it disposed of

or tell them to call 0161 874 3663 and to be honest they may well carp their pants

Defra F Gas support 0161 874 3663

Fri3Oil System
03-11-2010, 10:05 AM
... or, you can simply recycle it and keep it ina recycling cylinder as "recycled refrigerant". That's cheaper than sending to someone who will give it back to you at the lovely price of €€€/kg... if you do the things by the book, that person is out of the regulations since he is keeping original product which is banned since January, and he should have got rid of it during last year.

Regards,

Nando.

NoNickName
03-11-2010, 11:33 AM
Already existing, legitimately obtained, R22 cylinders can be used until 2014.

Fri3Oil System
03-11-2010, 11:41 AM
Hi NNN,

what do you mean by "legimately obtained"? If someone purchased it legally in December 2009, i.e., and did not put it in an installation, but kept it in his warehouse, that is illegal, to store/keep original R22 in cylinders, even if they purchased it correctly.

Maybe I misunderstood your message, if so, so sorry. :)

Regards,

Nando.

NoNickName
03-11-2010, 07:14 PM
31 December 2009 was the dateline for the placing on the market, use and importation of HCFCs.
Detaining virgin R22 is not forbidden.

monkey spanners
03-11-2010, 07:29 PM
Detaining virgin R22 is not forbidden.


This is the oposite of what we were told here in the uk.

It was said that any new R22 not used by 1 jan 2010 had to be sent back to the wholesalers. We could not keep it and use it. This was to prevent people stock pilling it to use later.

I would not be much surprised to learn that what we were led to believe was not true...

acnerd
03-11-2010, 07:50 PM
This is the oposite of what we were told here in the uk.

It was said that any new R22 not used by 1 jan 2010 had to be sent back to the wholesalers. We could not keep it and use it. This was to prevent people stock pilling it to use later.

I would not be much surprised to learn that what we were led to believe was not true...

That's what I was taught too. No stockpiling virgin R22 .....

Quality
03-11-2010, 08:26 PM
31 December 2009 was the dateline for the placing on the market, use and importation of HCFCs.
Detaining virgin R22 is not forbidden.

In the EU this statement is incorrect.
Virgin i.e. refrigerant that is brand new has nothing to do with placing on the market

the legislation is there to stop it being placed on the market - virgin that is

NoNickName
03-11-2010, 09:43 PM
He's not stockpiling. He a legitimate owner of one cylinder. No where it says he is forced to return it.
That was only true for reseller or retailers, because they are "placing on the market".
But a user does not place R22 on the market.

Lodiev
04-11-2010, 09:49 AM
So as a end user u may have a stockpile of R22????
So the advice is to end users( Buy R22 as long as u can afford it)

Lodiev
04-11-2010, 09:51 AM
So this mean a end user may stockpile R22???

NoNickName
04-11-2010, 10:19 AM
He's not stockpiling. HE OWNS ONE CYLINDER.
As long as he does not sell the cylinder, he's ok with the law.
A stockpile is a pile or storage location for bulk materials.

Lodiev
04-11-2010, 10:30 AM
He's not stockpiling. HE OWNS ONE CYLINDER.
As long as he does not sell the cylinder, he's ok with the law.
A stockpile is a pile or storage location for bulk materials.

Understood. But what if a end user buy a lot of R22 for his own use wile he still can to prevent rising cost as the phase out continue and R22 are becoming more expensive?
What states the law to a end user on stockpiling?

NoNickName
04-11-2010, 12:12 PM
The word "stockpiling" is not mentioned on the 842/06. It is forbidden to place on the market or use.

‘placing on the market’ means the supplying of or making available to a third party within the Community for the first time, against payment or free of charge, products and equipment containing or whose functioning relies upon fluorinated greenhouse gases, and includes import into the customs territory of the Community;

‘use’ means the utilisation of fluorinated greenhouse gases in the production, refilling, servicing or maintenance of products and equipment covered by this Regulation;

Detaining R22 is free from any obligations for everybody (as long as they don't use it or place it on the market).

Lodiev
04-11-2010, 01:24 PM
Thanks that explains it very good.

r.bartlett
04-11-2010, 05:18 PM
He's not stockpiling. HE OWNS ONE CYLINDER.
As long as he does not sell the cylinder, he's ok with the law.
A stockpile is a pile or storage location for bulk materials.

Stockpile does not necessarily relate to amount. It is a term for a reserve of supplies which may be used later. Thus the fact that it is only one cylinder may not be relevant.


If your premise is correct that to hold is not illegal (TBC) nether the less he will have great difficulty explaining why he holds virgin R22 on his premises.

In UK law there is such a thing as specific intent and the Judge would almost certainly side with the idea he had kept it back with the specific intent to use or at the very least allow himself and/or contractors to be tempted to use this illegal substance if circumstances arose.

The main point is that he has little alternative than to return it to the suppliers who will forward it for destruction. Morally if not legally

I would advise the client of his responsibilites and suggest the best thing for him would be to get it off site. -Or hide it better!

NoNickName
04-11-2010, 08:27 PM
While I may agree with you, detaining R22 with the intent of using it doesn't constitute a felony. I think judges have some other more important work to pay attention to.

Quality
04-11-2010, 08:39 PM
I would like to imply that R22 is not actually regulated under F Gas regs EC 842/2006 - but in fact EC 2037/2000

mmmm

r.bartlett
04-11-2010, 09:56 PM
While I may agree with you, detaining R22 with the intent of using it doesn't constitute a felony. I think judges have some other more important work to pay attention to.

You possibly misunderstand. I contend intent may constitute a felony if the Judge is minded to believe the defendant kept it with the intent to use it.

Mute point: Judges don't get asked what to judge on -that is the remit of the C.P.S (Crown Prosecution Service)

Quality
04-11-2010, 10:06 PM
C.P.S (Crown Prosecution Service)

Bugger me I thought they made Gauge manifolds

NoNickName
04-11-2010, 11:04 PM
But, is the use of R22 a felony in your country, set aside the intent of it?

r.bartlett
04-11-2010, 11:26 PM
But, is the use of R22 a felony in your country, set aside the intent of it?

Virgin R22 =yes
recycled = no

Your country too: but you know this already

http://www.comserve.co.uk/uploads/files/e68636_carbon%20trust%20r22-fgas%20feb09.pdf


Five further clauses in the Regulation affect the use of existing HCFC systems. These are:
c) Use of virgin HCFCs for maintenance will be banned from December 31st 2009.

Lodiev
05-11-2010, 08:11 AM
But, is the use of R22 a felony in your country, set aside the intent of it?

Well from next year till 2013 we will still be able to buy new R22 gas but only a specific quantity will be imported witch was estimated in the last 2 years. after 2013 the import quantity will decline yearly. but the cost of R22 will rise steep to force the user to stop using it and change to a new gas. We buy about 25 to 30 tons of R22 yearly and a price increase can make a huge difference to our budget.

The owning of R22 are not illegal in SA till 2040 so this is not a problem, but the price is.
I would like to change to a newer gas asap. because i believe in global warming and can see it for myself.:cool:

NoNickName
05-11-2010, 08:36 AM
Virgin R22 =yes
recycled = no


Is it punished with a fine or imprisonment?

r.bartlett
05-11-2010, 09:59 AM
Is it punished with a fine or imprisonment?


Is this relevent to the argument?

http://www.racplus.com/issues/r22-phase-out-round-table/8601664.article

What is going to happen to companies who don’t give the cylinders back?
Ray Gluckman There is nothing illegal if a cylinder is not used after 1 January, but it is not logical for them to have it, particularly a half full one. So maybe the protocol should be to charge a monthly rental fee for that cylinder. F-Gas Support is not the regulator, but we would talk to the relevant local authority - and there is a
budget for local authorities to make regulatory visits. The visit would start with a friendly caution saying: “You have done xyz wrong… Please don’t do this again, and we will come and see you again in a month.” It might stimulate the company to send the cylinder back. If the regulator went back and found the cylinder was still there, they might issue an enforcement notice, which is a legally binding order. If they still don’t do anything it might then lead to a prosecution. If the cylinder was found to be less than fifty per cent full on the subsequent visit, that would obviously be grounds for prosecution, because it would have had to have been used. If it goes to a magistrate’s court, the maximum fine is £5,000, but if it is judged serious enough for a crown court, the fine could be unlimited.

Quality
05-11-2010, 03:03 PM
This reply is direct from defra

Thank you for your query.

R22 is an HCFC refrigerant, and as such is covered by the EC Ozone Regulation.

Since 1st January 2010 it is an offence to buy or sell virgin HCFCs. It is an offence to use this fluid. We would advise that all supplies of virgin HCFCs be returned to a fluid supplier for destruction. They may charge you for this.
From the 1st January 2010 until the end of 2014 qualified personnel undertaking maintenance and servicing of equipment containing HCFCs can only use recycled or reclaimed HCFCs, see RAC 8 Section 5 for more details.
We hope that the information provided answers your query. If not, and you require further information, please do not hesitate to contact us again (details are at the bottom of this email).

Kind Regards,
Emmanuel

Emmanuel Kwafo
F-Gas Support Help Desk

I at least the facts are now here for everyone

NoNickName
05-11-2010, 06:47 PM
Yes, it's relevant to the argument, because a fine does not configure a felony, but just a misdemeanor.

And for Quality, "WOULD ADVISE" is a recommendation, not an obligation.

Grizzly
05-11-2010, 08:54 PM
Yes, it's relevant to the argument, because a fine does not configure a felony, but just a misdemeanor.

And for Quality, "WOULD ADVISE" is a recommendation, not an obligation.


What has happened since you changed your Job NoNickName.
You used to be so helpful, nowadays you just seem to want to argue with anyone who disagrees with your opinion of things?
Even when given the interpretation of the rules as defined in the U.K.
We in the U.K.will adopt the British interpretation
as defined above.
If you don't agree fair enough.
But as they say over here "Get of your soap Box".

We have advised the multi national customer concerned.
That the referred to above cylinder of R22, which was left by the last maintenance company.
Needs to be returned to the original supplier for disposal.
We are quite happy to do this for him. But as of yet the charge for doing so is unknown.
I and all of my colleagues are not allowed to use any Virgin R22.
Discussing as to how the rules are interpreted by you in Italy. Is totally irrelevant to Us in U.K. as we are bound by the above.
Please feel free to continue to advise on the many subjects you are known to specialise in.

But give us a break with all the I,I,I,
Grizzly.
No Moderators were consulted in this post, I am just tired of reading you verbal bashing everyone.

Chill Out, you used to be so helpful, nowadays you just want to argue.

NoNickName
05-11-2010, 09:43 PM
We will agree to disagree, not on an interpretation by UK nationals on EU rules, but on actions relied beyond the law wording.

al
06-11-2010, 12:17 AM
In Ireland as in the Uk (and this may be a surprise to some, ireland is not part of the UK), the law states no virgin 22 to be stored on sites, this has been the case since 1st January 2010.

My interpretation wrong as it may be is:

EU directives are enacted, each individual parliament passes this directive into its own national legislation, i believe this is where each country puts its own interpretation on it, hence the possible differences between us and say Italy or Spain.

I agree with you NNN, it is farcical that refrigerant purchased in Dec 09 is now illegal to hold, and it was such a beautiful refrigerant.............:)

alec

nevgee
06-11-2010, 12:29 AM
Ah this is where we (UK) get it wrong.... or right .. we follow the rules to the letter while our erstwhile EU cousins adjust, reassemble, or just apply a skewd interpretation onto the rules ... knowing full well their Officers of the law are more interested in meatier feasts?

Just take a look at their politicians and leaders. They don't have pompous stuffy attitudes like ours ... they just adjust their views accordingly to the pressures of the population. xxx xxx for instance .... what a man!

NoNickName
06-11-2010, 11:01 AM
This is totally off topic, unrelated and offensive political comment. Reported to the mods.

El Padre
06-11-2010, 06:31 PM
Ciao Fratelli,


Just seen this thread, as I understand the the regs, an equipment owner/end user has the right to retain R22 untill 2014, I know of a few sites that were contemplating buying some empty cylinders and storing refrigerant on site last year, it is the re-selling that is against the current directive/law.

Apologies if I have repeated something that has been mentioned, its mayhem here man!!

Cheers

Peter_1
07-11-2010, 05:24 PM
What if you say you charged this R22 into a system, recovered it again via a filter-dyrer (it is cleaned), then it becomes a recycled and used refrigerant which may be used legally in other systems?

Peter_1
07-11-2010, 05:36 PM
I also want to add we have to refer to the latest EU- regulation which is 1005/2009.
A regulation is valid immediately in all EU countries and doesn't need to be translated to national laws.
11.3 -11.4 and definition 21 of art 2.

If you go to court NNN, you will loose this one.

http://eur-lex.europa.eu/LexUriServ/LexUriServ.do?uri=OJ:L:2009:286:0001:01:EN:HTML

Grizzly
07-11-2010, 07:10 PM
What if you say you charged this R22 into a system, recovered it again via a filter-dyrer (it is cleaned), then it becomes a recycled and used refrigerant which may be used legally in other systems?

Provided the systems are owned by the same owner as the original system that the gas came from.

All this is good info but Recycled is not Virgin refrigerant as per my original Question.
Thanks for the input all the same Peter.
Grizzly

r.bartlett
07-11-2010, 08:44 PM
What if you say you charged this R22 into a system, recovered it again via a filter-dyrer (it is cleaned), then it becomes a recycled and used refrigerant which may be used legally in other systems?

A valid question and one which I discussed last year with a client who is a big user/loser of R22.

We both agreed that it was a legal way round the reg's but morally wrong and against the spirit of the regulations and therefore they refused to do this even though they knew it was going to cost them shed loads in the next few years..

Brian_UK
07-11-2010, 11:44 PM
What if you say you charged this R22 into a system, recovered it again via a filter-dyrer (it is cleaned), then it becomes a recycled and used refrigerant which may be used legally in other systems?
As of now you can't do that because you are using virgin gas.

Peter_1
08-11-2010, 08:32 AM
[/B]

Provided the systems are owned by the same owner as the original system that the gas came from.

A

Art 13 of 1005/2009 says that you can use it in any similar system, as far as I read it, it's not limited to the same plant,...at least, in Belgium this is the case.

@Richard, you're right, it's legally right but morally wrong.

But is it morally right that some new elected members in a very big country deny completely that Global Warming is provoked by humans.

@Brian, indeed, you're right, you only can say :o you recovered it, you may not charge it any longer. But, if you deliver those cylinders to your gas supplier, they will do exactly the same and re-distribute it in the gas circuit as a recycled refrigerant. This gas will come back. You then have added additional CO2 in the atmosphere due to transport and recycling energy which could be avoided. But legally, you're completely right.

Quality
08-11-2010, 08:49 AM
Art 13 of 1005/2009 says that you can use it in any similar system, as far as I read it, it's not limited to the same plant

This statement is correct as I have had a similar query confirmed by F Gas support;)

r.bartlett
08-11-2010, 11:45 AM
@Richard, you're right, it's legally right but morally wrong.

But is it morally right that some new elected members in a very big country deny completely that Global Warming is provoked by humans.

.


As I personally do not believe in man made global warming I am perhaps the wrong person to ask..

But that's for another thread..