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CHIZEL010
26-10-2010, 09:14 PM
Hi. Does anyone know if it is illegal to sell a 410A Heat Pump with 1/4 service/gauge ports, in the UK. Looked though all my Fgas Stuff and cant find any info on this. Cheers

chilliwilly
26-10-2010, 11:50 PM
I don't know, but if it has 1/4" instead of 3/8" schraders, the system will enable the standard 1/4" guages to be connected to it. As the 410a guage connections are always 3/8".

Case scenario.

Keeping the standard 1/4" schraders on the system would be like wiring a 13 amp socket to 415 volts, and putting a notice on it saying 415volts only. How many people do you think would still plug in everyday appliances in there? Change it to 3/8" schraders, and maintain the expected standard.

You never know, the next time you connect your standard 1/4" guage lines to a unit, it might be 410a inside there with a small and dirty label displaying 410a. And it could be painful.

Have you checked the chemical companies safe use and guidance of 410a. I'm sure I've either seen a BS number or a Suva guidance note about the schraders being 3/8" for 410a.

Quality
27-10-2010, 07:02 AM
Quick correction there as R410a service schraders are 5/16 flare;)

CHIZEL010
27-10-2010, 01:10 PM
Hi Thanks. I know all about 410A, and the problems occurred if you connect standard gauges etc. due to pressures/cross contamination etc. and that is why we have seperate gauges.
I had a meeting yesterday with an American company and they use the same gauges for R407C as for 410A. So they must have the same gauge port size. They are thinking of selling in the UK. But they would come with 1/4 gauge ports. Hence the question.

jpsmith1cm
27-10-2010, 05:42 PM
In the USA, R410 units are available with standard 1/4" schraeders.

While it would be nice to have different sized ports to deter use of the wrong gauges, it would also be a pain in the neck to have to run back to the truck to get the correct fittings/hoses/manifold to service the equipment.

chilliwilly
27-10-2010, 10:25 PM
In the USA, R410 units are available with standard 1/4" schraeders.

While it would be nice to have different sized ports to deter use of the wrong gauges, it would also be a pain in the neck to have to run back to the truck to get the correct fittings/hoses/manifold to service the equipment.

Hey JP

Is that you from the other forum. We need your experience on here. How you doing anyway? good I hope.

chilliwilly
27-10-2010, 10:44 PM
Quick correction there as R410a service schraders are 5/16 flare;)

Thats what I meant to say :).

I've only ever worked with it a few times. And I just borrowed the 410a gauges from a friend. I just noticed the hoses and the schraders were slightly bigger than 1/4". And to be honest I would have thought by now that they would have been standardised to 5/16."

They've looked into all the other factors and overlooked the obvious one :eek:.

jpsmith1cm
28-10-2010, 12:51 AM
Hey JP

Is that you from the other forum. We need your experience on here. How you doing anyway? good I hope.


Yes, the one and (hopefully) only JP.

I hang out here occcasionally, but the topics of discussion tend to range a bit away from my area of expertise so I generally refrain from commenting unless I KNOW something.


There are some VERY smart dudes that hang out here.

WE in the states could use a few like these guys. Knock our refer mechanics about a little. Rough 'em up and make them realize that simply posessing a gauge manifold does NOT make one a professional technician or engineer, which I actually prefer but has a different connotation on this side of the pond.

CHIZEL010
28-10-2010, 08:45 AM
We have to carry seperate sets of gauges for the different gasses. 1 for R22 etc. with 1/4 schrader and and 1 for 410a with 5/16 schrader. This is mainly to stop cross contamination of the different oils used and to stop someone connecting up their standard gauges with a maximum suction gauge pressure of 150 PSI to a 410a system and blowing them up with the higher pressures.

Argus
28-10-2010, 03:31 PM
.





Hi. Does anyone know if it is illegal to sell a 410A Heat Pump with 1/4 service/gauge ports, in the UK. Looked though all my Fgas Stuff and cant find any info on this. Cheers





Not sure about the legal part of it, but going back a few years (quite a few, actually) to when R410A was first touted as an alternative to the alternatives at the time that were replacing R22, the one thing that was apparent, that gave a lot of safety concerns was the much higher opperating pressures that you get with R410A:
It was recognised that the safe opperating pressures for much of the range of service equipment available at the time, (gauges, manifolds and the like) would be exceeded to the point where they may be unsafe.

It was this point that prompted many of the Japanese manufacturers at the time to design in a larger service port to exclude service gauges designed for R22, R407C and the like that were not safely designed for the higher pressures.

So, if you can demonstrate that your manifolds and gauge sets are equal to or exceed the Maximum Allowable Pressues for the sytem they are attached to, it doesn't matter what size the gauge ports are.

In the EU the standards to read to understand pressure safety are EN 378 and the Pressure Equipment Directive if the equipment is covered by it.
I think that this would have been covered in your F Gas work.

So, the law, to my knowledge, does not specifically pronounce on what sizes you should use, but it is a requirement of sale that the equipment is safe and further as an expert, you are aware of the safety issues.



.

jpsmith1cm
28-10-2010, 10:53 PM
We have to carry seperate sets of gauges for the different gasses. 1 for R22 etc. with 1/4 schrader and and 1 for 410a with 5/16 schrader. This is mainly to stop cross contamination of the different oils used and to stop someone connecting up their standard gauges with a maximum suction gauge pressure of 150 PSI to a 410a system and blowing them up with the higher pressures.


I have always thought that the oil cross contamination issue to be very much over-blown.

The amount of oil that would be transferred by a service manifold set during normal service work is minimal.

CHIZEL010
02-11-2010, 10:32 AM
Thanks all. Pretty much as I thought. But trying to get an exact answer from anyone is not easy. They make these governing bodies who you have to pay to be registered with and you get no straight answers, is that because they dont know and we are all wasting our money. I agree this trade should be regulated to stop the cowboys, but help the people who are trying to do everything correctly, with some better info.

lawrence1
03-11-2010, 06:09 AM
I don't know any fridgy who doesn't have 2 sets of guages,,,,,one for 410 and one for the rest.

djbe
13-11-2010, 12:08 AM
I don't know any fridgy who doesn't have 2 sets of guages,,,,,one for 410 and one for the rest.

At the very least?:D