Electrolux switch on neutral... [Archive] - Refrigeration-Engineer.com forums

norseman

19-10-2010, 06:50 AM

Hi to all

The power system is not the same all over Europe.
Many countries have the system based on cycling between two phases so it is not used neutral at all.
Ideally it should then turn 115volt either ways to create 230volt. In Norway as several countries, the low power systems has a plug and socket made so you can put the plug into the socket either way. An Electrolux as an example will get the same kind of input whatsoever way you put the plug in the wall.
USA and GB has a plug to socket style which arrest the way to connect them, but Scandinavia, Germany etc. use a non directional plug/socket system. Normally the producers make a fuse or safety cicuit on both lines and mostly a main switch who cut the both lines. The newer systems use a 400volt by 3 phases and N. We up in the north get then a circuit done as 230volt againt N, but still using the same plug socket with unlocked direction. The neutral can go on the blue or brown line depending on the "luck" in what way you put the plug into the socket. So a dedicated wire or colour code on single phase is
mostly for the beer drinking GB guys
:)
Have a nice day
Norseman

NoNickName

19-10-2010, 07:25 AM

Don't mix things up.
It is a FACT that it is FORBIDDEN to switch on neutral.
If the 230V is made up of two phases, then it doesn't matter with one to switch, but it's still a phase not a neutral.
If the plug is symmetric, then the switch is done on BOTH cables, as both can be live at any given time.

In all cases, switching to neutral ALONE is forbidden.

properdouble

19-10-2010, 10:36 AM

NoNickName

19-10-2010, 10:57 AM

Either he was putting you under test, or he simply chauvinistly implied that Zanussi Electrolux, being an italian product, is wrongly wired.

chilliwilly

26-10-2010, 11:15 PM

The switching on neutrals only applies to polarity on socket outlets, switches and isolators/disconnectors on fixed wiring and circuits supplying power to loads. In all electrical regs/codes around the world, the live/hot poles are always broken as a priority over the neutral. In the UK, distribution supplies in the form of a TT supply are recommended to have all poles switched. I can honestly say I've only ever seen certain heating loads double pole swiched, but never lights or sockets in this type of supply.

On appliances, plant, or machinery its a different story altogether. As monkey spanners pointed out, the common on single phase pots. Is wired through the neutral pole and then interupted by the klixon. On some of the other circuits such as interior lights are also switched through the neutral. This is commonly found on North American appliances, imported into Europe decalling the so called "CE mark."

On some control circuit wiring found on plant machinery utilising reduced low voltage 110v, (UK adapted universal/international crude standard). The voltage can be typically somewhere in the potential of 62/48volts to earth/ground, on either two of the poles. Instead of 55volts to earth on either pole. Control is acheived by switching one pole only, still leaving the other pole live/hot.

Either way the unbroken pole voltage is approaching the limit of < 50v safe working voltage allowed by the electricity at work regs and BS7671 17th edition wiring regs. And is often metered at a higher voltage than 48 volts. Sometimes the wrong pole is switched leaving the 62 volts to earth live/hot, but often is overlooked. And then there's the other version of it being 110 volts to ground, same as the reduced low voltage for power tools. But a much easier task to fault find. But utilising a PEN conductor as a neutral.

At the end of the day like the old saying goes "If in danger or if in doubt, switch it off, or pull it out!"

NoNickName

27-10-2010, 07:43 AM

In all electrical regs/codes around the world, the live/hot poles are always broken as a priority over the neutral.

Not true. It's also forbidden by EN60204.

Is wired through the neutral pole and then interupted by the klixon.

Not true, unless it's switched on the secondary circuit of the auxiliaries trafo.

On some of the other circuits such as interior lights are also switched through the neutral. This is commonly found on North American appliances, imported into Europe decalling the so called "CE mark."

Not true. It's simply ridiculous and bashing.

On some control circuit wiring found on plant machinery utilising reduced low voltage 110v, (UK adapted universal/international crude standard). The voltage can be typically somewhere in the potential of 62/48volts to earth/ground, on either two of the poles. Instead of 55volts to earth on either pole. Control is acheived by switching one pole only, still leaving the other pole live/hot.

Not true. The center star is grounded every 100 meters of the power supply line. Otherwise, any unbalance on one phase of the distribution network would case differences in voltage. Infact, the highest impedance circuit would have the highest voltage, because the center star would be floating.
What you are saying only happens on secondary circuits of transformers, when the zero wire is not grounded.
If it was true, then any differential switch would break open at any time.

taz24

27-10-2010, 08:42 AM

Hi All
Thank you for replies as i live UK the plug is straight forward the only thing that comes up in to my mind is that i must have missundertod that engineer anyway iam pretty sure that he said all electolux freezer are switched on neutral and he couldn't explain it to me wich is another dodgy sign. why would he give wrong information to trainee who hasn't started yet??? Strange situation.Anyhow i was thinking that it is some bull****.

Hi proper....

On your original question of switching the neutral.

The switch on somthing, is always in the live side of the circuit
because if it was in the neutral, when switched off, the
whole supply would be live all the way up to the point of the
switch. If there was then a problem with the component and or
an earth fault or if you were working on the system you could be
electrocuted.

So switching the neutral is not alowed and is not done (anymore).

But some older engineers (is your guy an older engineer) still remember
when some fridges were switched this way (before standerisation across Europe)
I even remember working on domestics with red earths :rolleyes:.

So why your engineer told you this, I do not know.
Ask him, tell him you researched it and you don't think it is switched in
the neutral. If he says good lad have a digestive, he was teasing and testing you.
If he gets angry at being questioned and found to be wanting then, he is not the guy
HE thinks he is and take what he says with caution in the future.

Just because he is teaching you, it does not mean he always knows what he is doing.

All the best

taz

.

chilliwilly

27-10-2010, 10:19 PM

Not true. It's also forbidden by EN60204.

Not true, unless it's switched on the secondary circuit of the auxiliaries trafo.

Not true. It's simply ridiculous and bashing.

Not true. The center star is grounded every 100 meters of the power supply line. Otherwise, any unbalance on one phase of the distribution network would case differences in voltage. Infact, the highest impedance circuit would have the highest voltage, because the center star would be floating.
What you are saying only happens on secondary circuits of transformers, when the zero wire is not grounded.
If it was true, then any differential switch would break open at any time.

Sir

Are you for real? Or are you just trying to wind me up?

Might I suggest that you read my post again and focus on what I'm stating. And if you ever get a chance to read a copy of the British wiring regs, The Canadian CEC, and the US NEC, they will stipulate what I have stated, in their own words.

All countries break the live/hot circuits, as a priority over the neutral on fixed wiring and supply leads/cords. And the neutral is broke for a different reason. Even a standard BS 1363 13 amp socket only requires the live/hot pole to be switched and the neutral pole remains unbroken. Might I also suggest that you read BS EN 60204 again. Which by the way isn't a legal requirement in the UK, but only another guide where no more information or specification is available.

If the common of a pot isn't wired to the neutral on a single phase supply, then its not going to work. The klixons are sometimes wired through the live/hot pole primarily, before it is wired to the artificial starter device, but the neutral is still wired through the klixon on numerous North American systems. And still found on some European models as well. But either way you will still find the circuit live at some point in either case. As I said in my other post if in danger or if in doubt, switch it off and or pull it out.

Sorry I don't know what a trafo is.

Ridiculous and bashing. I don't understand what you mean by that. There are numerous types of equipment being manufactured and imported into the UK and Europe donning the CE mark. But when you work on it, you can see the non compliances in there. How on earth can a metal chassis don a class 2 insulation sticker on some of the sh!te that is manufactured and imported into the UK?

Other than auto motive production, (which is usually interfaced with network wiring between control circuits) what plant control wiring have you worked on that has wiring looms greater than 100 meters, let alone anywhere up to that length? In all my 30 years experience as an electrical/electromechanical engineer, working on both sides of the pond. I have never ever seen a reduced low voltage system earthed/grounded every 100 meters, or at any other length for that matter. I think you are refering to a different system to the one used here in the UK.

The transfromer primary on a RLV control wiring system can be either 415v or 240v fed, sourcing a secondary voltage of 110 volts to earth or dual tapped to potentially divide into two voltages of similar voltages, in phase with each other in the case of 240v. And is located in a control panel. It isn't making up part of a distribution sub station network.

You may find that a 110v RLV to earth/ground, system having an earthed/grounded leg (PEN conductor) throughout its circuit. But even on the potentially divided system, even if the secondary was centre tapped, you would still have a higher voltage than 49/50 volts on one side (the neutral side or "A2") of any control component, even when the other leg is switched by single pole means. The latter isn't the ideal means of control, but still can be found on a number of control circuits. The 110 volt to earth/ground RLV is the more preferred method.

This kind of system has been in use in the UK for over 30 years now. So any control panel built in the UK, can be exported to any country in the world that uses single phase voltages equal to or less than 230/240 volts, 50/60 hz. Ie all of North America and most of south America. All they need to do is wire a single phase supply to the secondary of the control transformer, and then they're away. Or in the case of a three phase supply find the appropriate tapping on the primary.

NoNickName

28-10-2010, 07:53 AM

Sir

All countries break the live/hot circuits, as a priority over the neutral on fixed wiring and supply leads/cords. .

Yes, they do. You wrote the opposite in fact.

And still found on some European models as well. But either way you will still find the circuit live at some point in either case.

It is forbidden. Full stop.

Sorry I don't know what a trafo is.

Transformer.

How on earth can a metal chassis don a class 2 insulation sticker on some of the sh!te that is manufactured and imported into the UK?

By following the provisions of EN60204, which apparently you are not familiar with.

what plant control wiring have you worked on that has wiring looms greater than 100 meters, let alone anywhere up to that length?

It's called power grid. And no one is supposed to work on, except the utility company.

sourcing a secondary voltage of 110 volts to earth or dual tapped to potentially divide into two voltages of similar voltages

Exactly what I wrote. "Not true, unless it's switched on the secondary circuit of the auxiliaries trafo."
So, summing up, you can't have unbalance on a live wire, because it's coming from a power grid whose neutral is forcefully tapped to ground. The only possible way to have two live wires is on the secondary of a trafo.
But, going back to the original posting, an appliance connected to a plug only has got one live and one neutral, and if you are sure the wires can't be swapped, then the switching must be done on the live wire. If the wires of the plug can be reversed, then the switch must be on both.
Nowhere switching on the neutral alone is allowed.

chilliwilly

28-10-2010, 09:05 AM

"I GIVE UP"

Say whatever you like, but remember you will come across the situation where it is so. Then maybe you will realise that what is wrote in front of you isn't what is going to be put in front of you.

And I am familiar with the BS EN60204, and have consulted with for a number of years now, but yet to take a blind bit if notice of it.

coolstuf

29-10-2010, 09:08 PM

Worked on an Italian (Big surprise) glass washer that switches the heating element on neutral. :rolleyes:
Better stick with fridges:D

chilliwilly

30-10-2010, 12:19 AM

Yes I know what you mean, I have worked on Angelo Po equipment on and off for years now, which is also Italian. And some of there equipment switches the High limit stat through the neutral, especially on some of their fryers and boiling tops.

The latest equipment switches through the live/hot, and the stats break all phases and neutral. But that doesn't mean that the previous method shouldn't be repaired or disconnected and taken away.

acb

30-10-2010, 09:49 AM

NNN, ive got to add most of the italian stuuf ive worked on, switch the neutral on the control side, especially when its a older modular zannotti or porrka coldroom, ive found this to be due to small cheap relays on the p.c.b to stop them burning out. i changed one only yesterday, it was the one with old cpc square controller on it, it controlled the hot gas valve and the condenser fan by their neutral.

also about years ago in scotland a shopfitting company called new concept were fiiting out a lot of italian restraunts with various italian made stuff, bearing the iFi logo and all of these had a built in on/off switch which only shut off the neutral supply.i couldnt get to mains plug and found this out to expense of my snips while changing a condenser fan.

so in response to the original poster, YES you do have appliances that switch the neutral.

NoNickName

30-10-2010, 11:11 AM

coolstuf

30-10-2010, 11:59 AM

Now, now, NNN, don't take it so personal:D. Maybe blue is the live colour in Italy and you just forget to tell the rest of the world:o

chilliwilly

30-10-2010, 12:27 PM

Red to red, black to black, and blue to bits!

chilliwilly

30-10-2010, 12:46 PM

Porrka is finnish, but please don't stop bashing.
It makes me think on why more than half of european hvac appliance is produced in Italy. There must be a general stupidity of european customers still buying from such incompetent manufacturers.
Is it not that appliances for commercial applications are supplied without plugs and the installers need to care which one is the live and which one the neutral?

All commercial equipment with 3 KW rating or less were supplied with thirteen amp moulded plug tops at the firm where I used to work. If they're not then the managing director gives the manufacturer the choice of either... coming out and putting them on, knocking off the time it takes to put one on and the cost of the plug top off the bill, or simply just sending them back due to breach of contractual agreement.

Digressing slightly.

Even the smaller Grandimpianti laundry equipment comes supplied with a plug top, and they're an Italian company. But their machines got sent back quite often for a different reason. Just as you would expect a Lada to be taken back with a Rolls Royce badge on it. Thankfully the penny has dropped and now they're back in the top ten European manufacturers of laundry equipment. But more close to number ten than number one.

NoNickName

30-10-2010, 03:05 PM

All commercial equipment with 3 KW rating or less were supplied with thirteen amp moulded plug tops at the firm where I used to work. If they're not then the managing director gives the manufacturer the choice of either... coming out and putting them on, knocking off the time it takes to put one on and the cost of the plug top off the bill, or simply just sending them back due to breach of contractual agreement.

Unfortunately commercial equipment with a plug becomes a household appliance. For that, a completely different set of regulations apply.

I now understand how it happens that they switch on neutral: the subhuman contracting engineer plays a role.

chilliwilly

30-10-2010, 08:40 PM

Unfortunately commercial equipment with a plug becomes a household appliance. For that, a completely different set of regulations apply.

I now understand how it happens that they switch on neutral: the subhuman contracting engineer plays a role. Don't talk so bloody soft. All "low duty" Meile, Electrolux, Grandimpianti, Primus, Girbau, ADC, Cissell, Huebsch laundry equipment come with a plug top, whether commercial or domestic. If its not required its simply cut off and permantly connected.

As do all "low duty" refrigeration and catering/food service equipment come with a plug top as well. Including Angelo Po, Fosters, Williams, True Line, and Hobart.

Fellah... you really need to get that head of yours from up your arse. Its been up there that long you have gone blind to the obvious. And now only see black and white documentation that you think is the law, that you dare not apply a higher specification to. Or maybe you don't realise that you can actually do that.

NoNickName

30-10-2010, 11:01 PM

monkey spanners

30-10-2010, 11:38 PM

All the Surge milk tanks i worked on switched lives or neutrals seemingly on a whim. They also stopped the three phase fan motors by only switching two of the phases...

This was all factory wiring and not due to being serviced by sub humans :D

chilliwilly

31-10-2010, 09:50 AM

It doesn't mean a thing. Show me one, just one wiring diagram with a switch on a neutral.
For what it's worth, it's even forbidden to cut a plug away from an appliance. And again, I'm not surprised it ends up being connected the other way around, after being severed. Forbidden by who? And in which country?

I'll say it again for you. Just because an appliance switches a neutral as part of its control does not mean it should be decommissioned and removed from site. The latest edition of BSEN 60204 only applies to European manufacturers of plant machinery and appliaces, not to fixed wiring systems feeding power or final circuits. It carries no clout whatsoever in the rest of the world, unless they are importing into Europe in which case they just stick on a CE label, and no more is said about it.

They still switch on the neutral on some of the appliances and machines in North America, but they are swinging away from it as the CSA, CUL, UL and NEEMA harmonise their ideals.

Even with compliance with BSEN 60204, the starting relay is still switching the neutral. Leaving the start winding live/hot with no current flowing through it, so nothing is actually gained by doing it that way. When I worked in electrical design, the customers specification that I worked to far exeeded the requirements of BSEN 60204, as they didn't beleive it covered enough for their requirements. And at the end of the day if anyone working on any such plant or appliances isn't aware that it could be live/hot in there. They shouldn't really be in their for obvious reasons. Going back to the old saying "if in danger or if in doubt, switch it off and or pull it out"

NoNickName

31-10-2010, 10:41 AM

Forbidden by who? And in which country?

In European Union by the European Parliament. The CE conformity only applies to an untouched appliance. When you cut the plug, the conformity expires and the unit can't be commissioned any longer, unless a new DoC is produced by the installing company, including insulation, rigidity and applied voltage test.

I'll say it again for you. Just because an appliance switches a neutral as part of its control does not mean it should be decommissioned and removed from site.

It needs to be fixed.

The latest edition of BSEN 60204 only applies to European manufacturers of plant machinery and appliaces, not to fixed wiring systems feeding power or final circuits. It carries no clout whatsoever in the rest of the world, unless they are importing into Europe in which case they just stick on a CE label, and no more is said about it.

It applies to all electrical machinery built or imported in the EU, as recalled by the low voltage directive 2006/95/EC.

They still switch on the neutral on some of the appliances and machines in North America, but they are swinging away from it as the CSA, CUL, UL and NEEMA harmonise their ideals.

I don't know what they are doing in the USA or Canada, but I would bet switching on neutral is forbidden there, as it is here.

Even with compliance with BSEN 60204, the starting relay is still switching the neutral. Leaving the start winding live/hot with no current flowing through it,

You don't understand the concept of insulation. The starting can't switch on the neutral ALONE.

Going back to the old saying "if in danger or if in doubt, switch it off and or pull it out"

This has nothing to do with conformity or compliance.

chilliwilly

02-11-2010, 12:16 AM

The next time I repair a lead and replace a plug top, I will write to Brussells and beg them to forgive my actions. Then when they've have done that they can ask you to issue a new document for the appliance. If for some reason you have misplaced the appropriate document, you could always look in your adult mag collection, or peel a peice of wall paper of the wall. As I'm sure you have your front room decorated with it.

Then in turn I can report you to Brussels for certifying an appliance that has been in use for at least 5 plus years and has run as safe as it did the day it was delivered and commisioned. And that also has a control system that switches the neutral on one or more components within it. In turn its plugged into a 13 amp switched socket outlet fed by fixed wiring complying to the latest edition of BS 7671.

Then they can try you in the European court of human rights for BS EN non compliance treason, and putting all the lives and property of everyone in Europe at risk of using an appliance that complied with an earlier version of certain BS EN numbers.

They in turn will lock you in the tower of London with no laptop, phone, or internet whilst they're deciding sentence. After reviewing the evidence and your plea of not guilty due to diminished responsibility caused by an overbearing indulgence and misconstrual of definitions of BS EN numbers. And all the other Billy Hoo that comes inside box's of spare parts that most people throw away. And also your lack of ability to read posts correctly and understand them.

And the fact that your numb and insular to everyone elses knowledge gained mainly from experience, and following other guidance notes that contain a higher spec than that given just within BS EN numbers. The lack of ability to understand what action to take when working on equipment that were built before the ammendment of any such BS EN numbers.

Then because you have carried out such an evil and wicked crime, they can sentence you to death by hanging you, drawing you, and quartering your body. And scattering it to the four corners of England, after they have got planning permission from the local authoroties for the safe disposal of hazardous contaminated waste of course.

They will probably consider the fact that you won't feel a thing due to your numbness. And will almost certainly allow you your most obvious last request which probably would be to read BS EN 60204 whilst mastibating to it. Then last words you would speak when your blowing your load, would most likely be a demand for the ammendment of the associated BS EN numbers for the correct use of surgical implements for dismembering the bodies of tw*ts. Just think, your head can be used in the place of skull and cross bones on a BS5609/HW1056 series warning notice .

http://www.refrigeration-engineer.com/forums/../ProdImages/hw1056a_g.gif

After the ammendment of the code of course, don't want you getting upset now do we?

NoNickName

02-11-2010, 08:19 AM

I can't see your point.
There's a law, stick to it.
Switching on neutral is forbidden in the EU. You can't beg for forgiveness, not even being the most experienced engineer in Europe. You just need to fix it and do it right.

And it was forbidden since ages... no matter it is Italian or Iraqi.

Hope we can agree at least on abiding the law.

p.s. Did you mean masturbating?

chilliwilly

02-11-2010, 02:35 PM

Yes I meant masturbating, but the BS EN standard for spell check on my computer didn't comply and agree with what I was typing. So for this post, I skipped it so it would allow me to spell it properly!

BS EN numbers are not law, they are only guides.

The electricity at work regulations are law in the UK, and only recognise BS EN numbers as a means of basic guidance where no other specification or design is available. But they are not a guarantee of a strong defence in a libel court case. Whom ever follows any such spec, can still be liable to prosecution for loss and or damage.

Equipment manufactured outside and imported into the UK, still has some of its control components switched through the neutral due to its specific design. And until this method has yet to be proved to be dangerous, and cause losses due to it being used as a way to control a circuit. And not to be confused with switching off or isolating a fixed circuit supplying power that primarily interupts the live/hot pole, or both live/hot and neutral together. Or doesn't have a means of switching, but a readily available means of disconnecting by unplugging the connection. Therefore Compliance with BS EN 60204 does not need to be adhered to, or applied to when switching neutrals through certain controls at this moment in time, unless they are likely to cause danger.

chilliwilly

10-11-2010, 11:24 PM

NoNickName

11-11-2010, 07:35 AM

This is a completely different matter, and for your info EN60201-1 applies here, not EN60446. Red is a proper color for live wire for a command circuit. Tape is not a suitable way of designating wires and needs to be removed altogether.
Black is a correct color for the three phases (BS7671 only applies in the UK). There is just one big mistake there: the blue conductor for neutral. Everything else is ok.

I'm still waiting for a proof of a wiring diagram with a switch on neutral.

chilliwilly

12-11-2010, 09:26 AM

This is a completely different matter, and for your info EN60201-1 applies here, not EN60446. Red is a proper color for live wire for a command circuit.

Not true EN 60201 only applies to the safe use of equipment, and not for the general electrical requirements. Red is no longer used for live/hot/phase/line on flexible cords or fixed wiring and hasn't been used for over 30 years on flexible cords in the UK. But its still used in North America (and Italy it would seem).

Whats a command circuit?

Tape is not a suitable way of designating wires and needs to be removed altogether.

Tell that to Grandimpianti, they're an Italian manufacturer. The NICEIC and the ECA recognise tape as marking/flagging a conductor.

Black is a correct color for the three phases (BS7671 only applies in the UK).

Its in the UK and it only applies to one of the phases, the other 2 should be grey and brown.

There is just one big mistake there: the blue conductor for neutral.

Does it comply then or not? Blue is now the recognise colour for neutral.

Everything else is ok.

Not true

I'm still waiting for a proof of a wiring diagram with a switch on neutral.

The next time I get a call where there's one on the sites I work on I'll copy it and prove it to you, in the meantime the appliances and plant are still working safely and keep passing their safety tests. I

I've spoke to the MD of the main contractor, and he has withheld payment for the container load of equipment shipped in from Italy. As non of it complies with the standards specified on the agreement, which keeps on being breached by the Italian manufacturing and supplying company. Which is suppose to use the relevent BSEN numbers as a basic spec requirement.

CE marking eh, I sh!t it.

NoNickName

12-11-2010, 11:35 AM

In a european regulatory market I **** on BS norms. EN applies, and BS falls behind. Being an appliance EN60201 applies and not 60446, which relates to general requirement, and not to machines specifically.
Red is ok for command circuits, as I already said. If that's a command circuit, and not a power supply, red is ok. Tape is not allowed.
If it's a power supply, just remove the red tape and black is ok.
Neutral must be blue. Which is the only mistake there.

They are not forced to follow BS norms for exporting in the UK. UK must accept harmonised norms as EN60201.

chilliwilly

12-11-2010, 09:53 PM

In a european regulatory market

Ha Ha.

I **** on BS norms. EN applies, and BS falls behind.

I **** on the latter. We have had the BSI in this country long before you Europeans started importing your sh!te into Britain. If any electrical equipment, natural gas, or LPG appliance doesn't have the BS number on it, it will have an inferior one on it known as the EN mark. The British standards as I and anyone else know them have been lowered to harmonise with the inferior standard known as European Norms. Just so the imports can continue, and to make it easier for the Middle and Far Eastern manufacturers to import even more inferior goods.

God help the UK if they abollish the the coin of the realm with the correct face on the head side, and replace with the Euro. We might as well have let the Nazis march up to the capital and raise their swasticker. No disrespect to the Germans, they too have a good standard that exceeds the EN standard.

Remember most of the countries that were members of the commonwealth, based their standards on the British Standards, not the Euro norms. Exluding Canada of course because they border with the USA. As their standards (the CSA) is very similiar to the USA NEEMA and UL standards, and makes it easier to import and export to each other. Which by the way are good standards in their own right. But can be sometimes misconstrued when designing to them, as can other regulations.

Which country except Italy uses Italian regulations in their industry?

BS 1363 plug tops are fitted to all appliances rated under 3KW in the UK. There is no other standard that will enable it to be plugged into a 13 amp socket outlet. Unless you know of a EN number for 13 amp plug tops of course.

Being an appliance EN60201 applies and not 60446, which relates to general requirement, and not to machines specifically.

Crap

Both 60201 and 60446 apply to newly manufactured appliances and machinery, where there is no other spec available, as do many other standards. Especially where the power is fed by a flexible cord.

Red is ok for command circuits, as I already said. If that's a command circuit, and not a power supply, red is ok.

What's a command circuit? do you mean control circuit?

Tape is not allowed.

Crap

Tape is allowed for flagging cores of cables for identifying their designation and polarity, whether power or control circuits. Infact they supply it on small spools with letters and numbers on it just for that purpose. Shrinkband only applies to site applied insulation. The NICEIC and the ECA do not inspect wiring in your country, so how would you possibly know what they accept as sound practice?

If it's a power supply, just remove the red tape and black is ok.

Crap

I won't remove anything, the Italian manufacturer is in breach of a contractual agreement and not in compliance with agreed specifications. And in turn will, and continue to pay the penalty for breaching that agreement until they comply to it. After all its supposedly in compliance with European Norms, but clearly its not. And black is only correct for one of the phases, the other two should be grey and brown, not black. If they were all black, how would you connect to the correct polarity? Or is that something that you don't do, except in the case of the neutral?

Neutral must be blue. Which is the only mistake there.

Crap

There is no mistake with the neutral, and if you pay more attention you will see that it is blue.

They are not forced to follow BS norms for exporting in the UK. UK must accept harmonised norms as EN60201.

Crap

They comply to British standards already in stipulation primarily, and BS EN norms where there is no BS number, or any other spec available. Show me a gas appliance, any electrical equipment, a GSIU regulation, or any other BS number that states that a EN number has a higher spec than a BS number. There are more BS numbers for gas appliances and electrical equipment than there are BS/EN numbers, or self certified specifications.

NoNickName

13-11-2010, 01:46 PM

Good luck.

chilliwilly

13-11-2010, 11:04 PM

I don't depend on luck, but thankyou anyway.

chilliwilly

30-11-2010, 08:17 PM

:eek:

Look another appliance that uses neutral to switch as a form of control.

3875

3876

3877l

This was on a temperature holding cabinet that I repaired today that was imported from the US less than five years ago. And yes its CE marked. Personally I don't give A sh!t about the CE marking, as I find it nothing more than a novelty badge. That if you pay enough money for, you will be allowed to wear it. And I have had strong doubts with it for sometime now. It has got all the other North American NEEMA, UL, CUL, and associated standards stamped on it, which will do for me. As these represent a third of the recognised tri rated standards found on a lot of electrical equipment and apparatus found and used in the UK.

As you can see the neutral from the heating element is wired through the solid state relay and switched to control the temperature of the heating tank. On some of the older models, the klixon is wired through the neutral. When I come across one of them I will add it to this collection.

I didn't phone Brussells to discuss the matter in detail because they allowed it to be approved for use in Europe in the first place. And they might have told me to phone their standards co-ordinating advisor, who's based in Merate (LC) in Italy.
:eek: :rolleyes:

Quality

30-11-2010, 08:25 PM

As a British born sparky I can cement the argument that if it has wires and says Made In Italy this translates to Use Another Brand

:D
Yes Sir this is a dig remove if you need too but it has already been said that some posters used to be helpful

NoNickName

30-11-2010, 09:47 PM

Thread reported to moderators.

coolhibby1875

01-12-2010, 04:16 PM

i haven't enjoyed reading a post as much as this 1 in ages, nice 1 chilly willy, you have certainly brought a smile to my face with your excelent humour:)

FaultCode

01-12-2010, 08:21 PM

I don't know who makes Frigidaire but they switch on the neutral.

Check the defrost heater here..

http ://manuals.frigidaire.com/prodinfo_pdf/Anderson/240379017.pdf

coolhibby1875

01-12-2010, 09:54 PM

i was laughing that much i forgot to add there are lots of fridges that switch on the neutral, granted they are older but old arneg and old electrolux did switch on the neutrals, loving chillywilly's gag's :):)

chilliwilly

01-12-2010, 11:37 PM

Yes I know what you mean. I still do come across other equipment that still switches the neutral on part of its control. Until it can be prooved that its actually dangerous, I suppose they'll be some that will just keep on doing it that way. Despite rules and regs.

scales

02-12-2010, 04:21 PM

What an interesting argument, all i know is i have worked on Zanussi/electrolux commercial fridge/freezers for years and they do switch on the neutrals.

Fault finding is a nightmare so most engineers carry an extension lead wired incorrectly to carry out live testing, we know its wrong but hey too many jobs not enough hours.

beebarron

20-12-2010, 03:55 PM

Spooky - i have just replaced the evaporator fan in large electrolux freezer - and this was controled by a door micro switch in the neutral from the fan motor - but the freezer does have a DP on off switch. But it can be confusing when you dont have a wiring diagram.........

NoNickName

20-12-2010, 04:17 PM

Guys, you are confusing switches with thermal switches. The EN60204 doesn't prohibit to put switches on the neutral. It prohibits THERMAL SWITCHES on the neutral.
The frigidair wiring diagram posted earlier has a klixon on the live, and a on/off door switch on the neutral. It is perfectly compliant.

maddfridge

20-12-2010, 06:47 PM

Either he was putting you under test, or he simply chauvinistly implied that Zanussi Electrolux, being an italian product, is wrongly wired.

hi there all

BE VERY CAREFULL ITALIAN KIT DOES SWITCH THE NEUTRAL.

i was working on an an itailian ice cream making machine and the on off switch is wired after the mixer motor!

so it was live when switched off :rolleyes:

so like all electrical stuff test and test everything or it will zap you and i know :eek:

cheers

NoNickName

20-12-2010, 08:00 PM

it will zap you

It doesn't because differential protection switches on the power supply are compulsory (I assume British plant technology is compliant to EU regulation, or isn't it), while the on/off switch is not compulsory on the live conductor.

chilliwilly

20-12-2010, 10:25 PM

NoNickName

21-12-2010, 12:30 AM

I didn't say that because I didn't know you were all referring to on/off switches. In other languages, protection switches and on/off switches have different names.

chilliwilly

21-12-2010, 06:08 PM

We were all refering to the neutral being switched as part of the control circuit. Ideally it should be the live but is still found to be the neutral, even through the high limit safety's.

NoNickName

21-12-2010, 07:25 PM

Ideally it should be the live but is still found to be the neutral, even through the high limit safety's.

This is not forbidden, because differential magnetic switches are obligatory on the power supply line.
In absence of differential protection, that fridge can start at any time, uncommanded.

chilliwilly

21-12-2010, 10:02 PM

Differential switches? do you mean high and low pressure switches in the pipework?

NoNickName

22-12-2010, 12:29 AM

No, I mean residual current devices.
A residual-current device (RCD), similar to a Residual Current Circuit Breaker (RCCB), is an electrical wiring (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Electrical_wiring) device that disconnects a circuit whenever it detects that the electric current (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Electric_current) is not balanced between the energized conductor and the return neutral (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ground_and_neutral) conductor. Such an imbalance is sometimes caused by current leakage through the body of a person who is grounded and accidentally touching the energized part of the circuit. A lethal (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lethal) shock (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Electric_shock) can result from these conditions. RCDs are designed to disconnect (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Open_circuit) quickly enough to mitigate the harm caused by such shocks although they are not intended to provide protection against overload or short-circuit (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Short-circuit) conditions.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Residual-current_device

chilliwilly

22-12-2010, 08:19 PM

Yes I'm familiar with rcds/gfci, but they're not obligitory to be connected in circuits over here in the UK. They're only required to be installed on circuits supplying portable equipment outdoors up to 32 amp, within domestic and commercial bathrooms, within certain zones of swimming pools, and on fixed wired circuits installed within the fabric of the building in domestic/residential premises that are not suitably mechanically protected.

The wiring in my house doesn't have any rcd protection except on an outdoor socket. Infact all of the circuits have got BS 3036 rewireable fuses protecting them. The fridge I have recently given away, was an old Swedish made Electrolux that had the klixon connected through the neutral, and contained R12.

NoNickName

22-12-2010, 11:28 PM

Yes I'm familiar with rcds/gfci, but they're not obligitory to be connected in circuits over here in the UK.

Wiki says they are obligatory in UK since 2008. Not much time ago, I must admit.

The fridge I have recently given away, was an old Swedish made Electrolux that had the klixon connected through the neutral, and contained R12.

Wicked.

acb

26-12-2010, 11:59 AM

well done NNN, this thread was started by someone asking if you can find an appliance that switches a neutral, youve spent the whole time arguing that it cant happen because its illegal, but now, youve changed your tune, proving youre a fud that knows nothing, well done for arguing with a whole country and not even acknowedging you were wrong all this time.
btw porrkka maybe finnish but the zannotti pcbs that are in them are italian, heaven forbid any manufacturer chooses to put someone elses parts in their product.
once again......fud

NoNickName

26-12-2010, 05:50 PM

now, youve changed your tune, proving youre a fud that knows nothing

And you are a stupid moron that is welcome in my black list.
I already explained that if English was a technical language, it would give thermal switches and on/off switches different names.

Despite that, it is still very much deprecated to switch appliances on/off on the neutral, and it shouldn't be done despite not being strictly illegal.

mad fridgie

26-12-2010, 09:02 PM

I presume NNN native language is not english, therefore is converting and i think he has covered this. I do not always agree with NNN, nature of our industry, but I do think in this case i understood where he was coming from.
There is plenty of equipment where internally the neuatral is switched, and is a real pain in the arse!

Brian_UK

26-12-2010, 09:11 PM

Wiki says they are obligatory in UK since 2008. Not much time ago, I must admit.Incorrect.

You must learn to read what is written correctly and do not believe everything that is written in Wiki.

Quote from Wiki, your link, - the UK has only mandated the use of RCDs in new installations since July 2008

Quality

26-12-2010, 09:27 PM

Switching a neutral on an electrical installation without switching the live is not within 17th edition regs

but switching neutral on manufactured equipment is a playing field

please lets get the debate correct

are we talking equipment

or fixed installations

Ps not read every post to the word

NoNickName

26-12-2010, 11:56 PM

the UK has only mandated the use of RCDs in new installations since July 2008

In what this is different from my quote?

are we talking equipment

BS EN 60204-1 (british adopted since 2006) is concerning safety of machinery.
Everything it states is from the health and safety point of view. It states that, in case of short circuit or overload, the break shall be on the live wire, even if the fault is on the auxiliaries circuit.

Example:

http://www.consted.com/imptrad/macchine-elettriche/figura001macchine.gif

The above fault to ground activates the load and start the machinery. The switch is on the neutral.

The second example
http://www.consted.com/imptrad/macchine-elettriche/figura002macchine.gif
is not prone to activation when a fault to ground happens (the fuse burns).

chilliwilly

27-12-2010, 11:11 PM

The original post on this thread was about a question about Electrolux switching on the neutral. Many posts stated that neutral was switched especially on klixons and door switches. But certainly wasn't switched within fixed wired installations without switching the line primarily and the neutral secondary.

We are all aware of the importance of polarity and switching the correct poles. But the older equipment that is still out there and working in perfect order, still has the klixon switched through the neutral. The BS EN numbers that give guidance to manufacturers of equipment, are not always in compliance with the guidance laid down within the said standards. As we have all found out, especially on equipment made outside of the EEC. Although it has a CE mark on it when it is sold within the EEC.

NNN posted some interesting opinions on the matter, but unaware to NNN, his opinions and guidance notes that he had read. Differred somewhat with everbody's experiences within the UK and Ireland, especially on equipment manufactured within Italy and the rest of the EEC. At the end of the day which ever pole is switched makes no difference, because if there's a fault its simply switched off and unplugged.

But most of all, if anyone working on the equipment isn't aware that the neutral may be switched, or there may be a reduced low voltage control circuit present (110v) that still has a voltage on L2 when L1 has been switched, or the circuits in there are connected to a dangerous voltage, they shouldn't be in there in the first place.