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jonjon
14-10-2010, 07:36 PM
just found out the a certain fm company i work for have decided that there going to get all engineers to give up 2 hours of there day for free to travel to sites ! anybody else work within the fm business ?

Brian_UK
14-10-2010, 08:09 PM
Hi Jon, I'm so glad that I left your favourite company last Easter.

Keep hearing about the ongoing crap that they are giving everyone.

If they shot the bean-counters and started understanding that they have customers at the end of the telephone and not postcodes then things could be improved.

My sympathies.

jonjon
14-10-2010, 08:18 PM
yes i no the sooner i get the hell out of here the better cannot wait to join a proper a/c firm again!

r.bartlett
14-10-2010, 08:44 PM
The people in the office don't get paid travel -so why do engineers?

Pingo
14-10-2010, 09:41 PM
The people in the office don't get paid travel -so why do engineers?

The days of being payed from the time you leave home till the time you get back home have now gone,

If you live close to the office - leave the company vehicle there overnight.
pick it up at your start time in the morning after your cup of tea in the office then drop it back at the end of the day.

Regards Bob

jonjon
14-10-2010, 09:50 PM
The people in the office don't get paid travel -so why do engineers?


well my role is a mobile engineer my van is my office!

jonjon
14-10-2010, 09:53 PM
The days of being payed from the time you leave home till the time you get back home have now gone,

If you live close to the office - leave the company vehicle there overnight.
pick it up at your start time in the morning after your cup of tea in the office then drop it back at the end of the day.

Regards Bob

i would but my nearest office is in Portsmouth a good 6 hour drive :) it wouldn't be to bad but when they want you to work from 7 am till 5pm everyday and expect you to be at your first site for 8am takes the p*ss a bit

Grizzly
14-10-2010, 10:06 PM
i would but my nearest office is in Portsmouth a good 6 hour drive :) it wouldn't be to bad but when they want you to work from 7 am till 5pm everyday and expect you to be at your first site for 8am takes the p*ss a bit

Don't forget the very helpful tracker, just in case you forget here you are.
The office can then advise you!:rolleyes:
Grizzly

jonjon
14-10-2010, 10:12 PM
Don't forget the very helpful tracker, just in case you forget here you are.
The office can then advise you!:rolleyes:
Grizzly

exactly n restricted vans as fun as it is doing 67mph :( wots next? camera in the cab?

monkey spanners
14-10-2010, 10:13 PM
Its gone cr@p everywhere, one guy i know of is being paid (don't know how much) to sit at home as they have no work for him.
Trouble is he is now working for 120 a day for someone we do subbie work for. Or did. So now we get to sit at home and not get paid...

coolhibby1875
14-10-2010, 11:57 PM
The people in the office don't get paid travel -so why do engineers?

are you taking the piss?

Grizzly
15-10-2010, 06:54 AM
are you taking the piss?


My thoughts exactly!
Well said.
Grizzly

r.bartlett
15-10-2010, 07:12 AM
are you taking the piss?

I know many many people who travel over an hour each way to get to work. They don't get paid travel time.

What makes you so special?

Grizzly
15-10-2010, 08:24 AM
I know many many people who travel over an hour each way to get to work. They don't get paid travel time.

What makes you so special?

May I explain.
Our office staff like many commute to work daily.
Unlike them my terms and conditions are such that. I am expected to operate from home.
I have to give 1hr a day travel time which used to be 2hrs. Changed because the more "mobile" engineers were being penalised monetarily compared to our local site based guys!
My travel time is unless I am on emergency call out
at flat rate. (out of hours weekends etc.)

Because like coolhibby I suspect we use the office as a central hub. Operating all over the South West,
Many times it suites both parties to respond via the most direct route from home.
We give our customers as immediate a response as is possible at any given hour. (4hrs max)
Even when we are not rostered to be on call!

So to have to commute to the office is neither cost effective or practical.
I personnaly live 50 miles from the office so fuel costs are relevant also.
We are also expected to provide a large proportion of the tools and equipment we use.
I would have issues if my own tools were left in my vehicle, sat on the company car park overnight.
The local "Nasties" would have a field day.

I understand that when you join a company it's terms and conditions are what you accept.
What this post is really about is the way that most of us certainly with the larger companies.
Are having terms and conditions changed without any say in the outcome.

I suspect that you could give a rational and sensible answer as to how any changes you may deem necessary within your company.
And I know I would respect them. But you are not part of a huge inverse pyramid!

(I say chaps! Why are the engineers walking around with dirty tabards on... But Sir, they get dirty because they wear them whilst they are working!)

The size and composition of the company is relevant.
But not all operate the same and if what was suggested (operating from the depot) became fact.
I suspect I would have to leave as my position would be compromised. I accepted a set of terms and conditions that were and at the moment still are acceptable.

1 size does not fit all and I agree with coolhibby. Anyone suggesting depot operation to "Us" is taking the piss!

coolhibby1875
15-10-2010, 02:58 PM
if i travel to the office for my normal start time of 08.30 then i dont get paid to travel there, but if your told to be at a site for 08.30 and that site is over 2 hours away then i expect to be paid for it!!

TRASH101
15-10-2010, 04:02 PM
I find myself on unstable ground here for the following reasons.

1) What do we get paid for?
a) for producing a product or a service (and/or)
b) to compensate us for commiting time and experience (b,s & tears) to accomplish the above.

2) At what point is the above deemed to begin and end.

3) What is in the companies best interest (within the law obviously;))

I understand that office staff may face a "commute", but this is optional isn't it (there is always b&b or the option to move)?
A mobile engineer will always face a commute regardless of geographical residence and b&b/ other accommodation is used as an option to negate the commute and is funded by the company as it will, in most circumstances, reduce service/product cost whilst labour costs can be enhanced as the engineers will not be flagging (or paid) due to an unneccessary commute.

As far as skill levels go for "office" staff go, if they have to be sourced from an hours commute away then they will have weighed that against renumeration and incentives before taking the job, wouldn't they?????????

jonjon
15-10-2010, 05:29 PM
if i travel to the office for my normal start time of 08.30 then i dont get paid to travel there, but if your told to be at a site for 08.30 and that site is over 2 hours away then i expect to be paid for it!!

my point exactly !

r.bartlett
16-10-2010, 12:19 AM
May I explain.
Our office staff like many commute to work daily.
Unlike them my terms and conditions are such that. I am expected to operate from home.
I have to give 1hr a day travel time which used to be 2hrs. Changed because the more "mobile" engineers were being penalised monetarily compared to our local site based guys!
My travel time is unless I am on emergency call out
at flat rate. (out of hours weekends etc.)

1hr seems reasonable. 2 maybe pushing it but I do like the sound of it I must admit :D





Because like coolhibby I suspect we use the office as a central hub. Operating all over the South West,
Many times it suites both parties to respond via the most direct route from home.
We give our customers as immediate a response as is possible at any given hour. (4hrs max)
Even when we are not rostered to be on call!


If they insist on a back to base working arrangement then they have to suffer the consequences of you not being able to meet that 4hr when your van is 50miles away in the wrong direction..



So to have to commute to the office is neither cost effective or practical.
I personally live 50 miles from the office so fuel costs are relevant also.


This is dependant on the engineer and the distance to the office. I live 64 miles away from my office but I don't go there if I have to go to London that's for sure ...


We are also expected to provide a large proportion of the tools and equipment we use.
I would have issues if my own tools were left in my vehicle, sat on the company car park overnight.
The local "Nasties" would have a field day.

I understand that when you join a company it's terms and conditions are what you accept.
What this post is really about is the way that most of us certainly with the larger companies.
Are having terms and conditions changed without any say in the outcome.

That cannot be the case. Changes to employees contracts cannot be done without proper consultation with the employees. That is the law. I would encourage that you seek legal advice with regard to any changes in T&C.


I suspect that you could give a rational and sensible answer as to how any changes you may deem necessary within your company.

I am currently looking at all sides of the business with regards to cost savings.

Engineers, because of their isolated lives always believe
1 The company would fold without them
2 The boss sits in his office all day counting money
3 The office workers are rubbish and lazy
4 Any cut backs is always at the expense of the engineers and no one else.
5 They are the hardest working, best engineer the company has ever had the good fortune to employ
6 The boss is a complete idiot and would never rumble them fiddling their hours,mileage or the odd 10w fan motor for their local pub bar cooler etc



And I know I would respect them. But you are not part of a huge inverse pyramid!

I have never been in a very large corporation big as Carillon etc so yes I don't have experience of the inverse pyramid but in all honesty small companies have the same problems only smaller. Engineers feel like mushrooms, mainly as I say because they lead a lonely isolated life.
The problem is that driving along they have plenty of time to tot up the hours they work and the travel and mileage and x it by the company going rate and convince themselves the company is raking in millions off their backs. It ain't so, believe me it really isn't

Example:
Big companies buy big maintenance contracts to stop smaller ones getting a look in.

Connaught were a prime example of a very large company losing millions. I bet the workers did not have a clue why the company lost so much money and ended up bust. They just see themselves working 50 hrs and it's obvious they must be raking it in. Sure the Boss had a big car but that's 100k and they went down for 220m !


(I say chaps! Why are the engineers walking around with dirty tabards on... But Sir, they get dirty because they wear them whilst they are working!)

Nope you've lost me here. This isn't a class issue



The size and composition of the company is relevant.
But not all operate the same and if what was suggested (operating from the depot) became fact.
I suspect I would have to leave as my position would be compromised. I accepted a set of terms and conditions that were and at the moment still are acceptable.


I don't know if you're unionised but they can't enforce a contract change without employee approval. If the job no longer suits then perhaps it's best you do start to look round. Top engineers like yourself will always find positions or even have a work round sorted by the boss who knows you're too valuable to lose..



1 size does not fit all and I agree with coolhibby. Anyone suggesting depot operation to "Us" is taking the piss!


Work is getting tight everybody is looking to cut costs. Sometimes things are thrown out to see what the response is.
Big companies can suffer from silly decisions made elsewhere aboard even and they can become unworkable or cause a mass migration of engineers. Sometimes these things are done to force that very thing to drive out the dross without redundancy pay. It's business and that's how business is and has to be run when times are tight...
Sadly we're not in the hi tech world with big money rolling in with little or no effort. The fridge game is a poorly paid thankless grind both for the boss and the workers..

When times are good bosses turn a blind eye to the excesses of staff because money is OK. For the last 13 years the 'workers' have had it easy. Living Gordon Browns miracle economy has made workers fat and lazy. I know most here will be up in arms but I refer you to number 5 above...
Sadly that gravy train has well and truly hit the buffers and the workers are starting to have a bit of a cold wake up call. The last time we were like this (late eighties early nineties) it was bad but we didn't have cheap labour willing to take up the slack, Now we have less work and more workers. It doesn't look good. This latest mob suggest the private sector will make up for the public sector job losses. Forgetting the private sector is shedding jobs at a faster rate

When things turn round like they have the boss has the upper hand he will make hay, when the next boom starts in a few years it will turn around again and you can claw back some of the lost ground. Till then hold on it's going to be a bumpy ride..

Grizzly
16-10-2010, 10:49 AM
Richard.
I cannot argue with your reasoning.
I have been there and had the teeshirt.
On both sides of the fence.
We as an industry have as we all know been squeezed for years.
The good should prevail but as was explained to me recently.
I am a commodity!
Whatever I say is irrelevant.
What my company decides to do is way above me.
My actual customers are generally happy with me as an engineer.
But in the environment we are in now that counts for didly squat.
Rational and sensible ideas / practises get more distorted the bigger the company.
From either side of the fence.
I must say We engineers will Bleed if necessary for our Supervisor/ Manager.
Because we respect him.
Respect is a 2 way thing and if my bosses talk to me as if I am irrelevant.
Then guess how I behave.
The pendulum has swung the other way and yes it will swing back.
I just like any rational adult want a happy balance.
It ain't there at the moment.
Grizzly

Oh! Companies can do what they want provided their employees want to keep their jobs.
I suspect that there will be a lot of movement within the industry when things have calmed down?
But for now put up and shut up!
It is good that guys on the forum are keeping US! informed though.
Whichever side of the fence we sit. By the way the fence does not have to be a big one.. does it?

Brian_UK
16-10-2010, 11:18 PM
Only one little comment Richard...

Engineers, because of their isolated lives always believe
1 The company would fold without them

In truth the company would if it is a service company. I don't mean that as an individual engineer but as a group.

We are not super-beings or the be-all and end-all of the business but to a certain degree the office (generic term) is there to support the mobile staff not the other way around.

Without a mobile staff attending your customers you do not have any customers. The follow on from that is that no-one has a job.

monkey spanners
16-10-2010, 11:58 PM
An excerpt from a teaching on the responsibilities of being an employer or employee from my Lama. Please ignore if its not to your liking :)


.....If we are the boss of a big company, it doesn't mean we are happy, do you know why? Its because we are still interdependant.
How is the boss is dependant on his workers, how? He needs their love and respect, he needs them to care for him.
What do the workers need from him? They need his financial help that arises from his care, not slavery, not that he makes them slaves and disrespects them and makes them work like animals, worse than animals, and pays them so they take the money grudgingly, unhappily because they are dependant on it, but they need him to give, supply money out of love and care, and what does the factory boss need from his workers love and care and respect.
Then both people are happy. So don't think we can escape with wealth, we can not, infact with wealth we create a time bomb, thats why a lot of wealthy people commit suicide or do drugs or alcohol. Why? Its a time bomb. Wealth only makes the situation worse and hides it better....

____________

I think the problem comes when the office staff think they are seperate from the engineers and vice versa, and when the employer thinks he is seperate from his employees. And to a degree also when we think we are seperate from our customers and suppliers and so on.

Jon :)

james10
17-10-2010, 08:29 AM
I used to work in FM, where i worked you were expected to give eight hours travel time per week which was in your contract, no problem i thought it's what i signed up for, then i found out that they were charging the customer premium rates for that travel time. Now thats whats taking the piss, needless to say i no longer work for them.

jonjon
20-10-2010, 05:59 PM
I used to work in FM, where i worked you were expected to give eight hours travel time per week which was in your contract, no problem i thought it's what i signed up for, then i found out that they were charging the customer premium rates for that travel time. Now thats whats taking the piss, needless to say i no longer work for them.


let me guess car illion? or mitie?

james10
20-10-2010, 06:10 PM
let me guess car illion? or mitie?
Neither one of the lesser known ones but still a national company

Pole Star
22-10-2010, 04:43 PM
As a supplier to pretty much the majority of FM services ee hear these complaints often from the engineers.

It is without a doubt a very delicate debate which pro's and con's to both sides of the story. Ultimately there is no "right" or "wrong" answer. But a company losing money hand over fist will benefit nobody long term as with an unhappy workforce, common ground must always be found.

But a nice debate never the less.

123-steve909
24-10-2010, 11:58 AM
i know many many people who travel over an hour each way to get to work. They don't get paid travel time.

What makes you so special?


any idiot can work for nothing!!!!

NB12
14-11-2010, 10:16 PM
The people in the office don't get paid travel -so why do engineers?


Office workers lead a MUCH differant working lifestyle to mobile engineers, they work in a nice clean warm enviroment with acess to toilets,washing facilities and tea and coffee machines all day, work the same hours every week of the decade. In my opinion i start work the second the van key goes in the ignition in the morning and should be paid from then until that key gets removed for the last time when i return home at night(or the following morning).