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stevews
07-07-2005, 10:54 PM
This particular system came with pre-flared 5m x 10mm pipes and 5m x 6mm pipes.

Having installed the indoor unit carefully without kinking the copper pipes, I wasnít so lucky when I connected the last 10mm pipe to the outside unit. I gave the pipe such a bad kink I donít think the gas will get trough properly.

My question is two fold.

A) Can I simple purchase another fully prepared i.e. pre-flared 10mm pipe, 5m in length?

b) Purchase a few couplings to make the job easier in the first place and avoid another mistake of kinking a pipe when trying to bend it?

All I can establish about purchasing copper pipe is the thickness of it and how that tends to tends to be relevant to the preinstalled frigerant gas - my system uses R407c.

Can anyone recommend a supplier in the UK that could supply either of the two options above? a link would be great.

I would extremely grateful for any advice as I feel such an idiot about ruining the whole installation because of 1 stupid mistake.

Look forward to hearing from you guys soon.

Steve

Abe
07-07-2005, 11:02 PM
I would assume that this is one of those B& Q air condtioners.
Kink in pipe?? F

Is the pipe soft copper ? or flexible hose?
10mm , thats probably 3/8" I think.

All it needs is cut off the offending kink, fit a coupler and braze it on..........

Hope that helps. Better then buying a whole new set of hoses.......

A bit more info on the system itself would assist

eggs
07-07-2005, 11:03 PM
sorry mate, i only work here the weekends and holidays.

try the plumbing aisle.

i think you can use a 10mm radiator pipe repair kit.

cheers

Burt Quentin.

Brian_UK
07-07-2005, 11:17 PM
Now, now, Burt... calm down.

It sounds like the man is going to break all the environmental laws anyway so we ought to try and help him a little bit. :cool:

Steve, a couple of questions of you first if we may.

Do you have ANY experience of fitting systems containing refrigerants; it doesn't sound as though you do but we have to ask.

Is the equipment you are fitting supposedly "ready to run" once you had connected all of the pieces ?

You will find it hard to purchase pre-formed (fitted) piping from wholesalers. It is generally cut/brazed/flared etc on site by the installing engineer to suit the particular job itself.

If the pipework you have damaged has open ends may we ask what you proposed doing next in your installation.

If the pipework you have damaged has sealed ends which then you are, my boy, in deep do-do.:eek:

If you can give us more info then we may be able to help and point you in the right direction.

Andy W
08-07-2005, 07:15 AM
You need to weigh up the cost of purchasing new lines or paying a refrigeration engineer to finish off the job, personally I do not agree with places like B&Q selling these DIY systems as they are prone to leak gas etc through poor design and construction and it is only a matter of time before Goverment legislation bans these DIY systems but only after someone has been badly injured. Have you ever seen what liquid refrigerant can do to the skin? I once burnt myself so bad that I had to have my hand in a flamazine bag (sterile burns bag filled with cream) for two weeks, boy was that painful!

stevews
08-07-2005, 07:32 AM
Hi Brian and Co.

You were dead right, I am not a professional, nor do I have any prior experience of installing air-conditioning units.

I purchased the unit as a kit on Ebay a couple of months ago. It was sold on the basis that anyone with good DIY skills could fit themselves.

Because I was already familiar with plumbing and electrical work I thought I would be able to cope with it easily. What I didnít realise was the copper pipe work supplied had already been pre-insulated (heat-resistant insulating material) and had "speedy connection nuts" with pre-flared ends. Both lengths of pipe supplied were 6mm thick and 10mm thick and were made of soft copper.

The specification of the system is:

Indoor Unit ASW-H09A4/HAR - Cooling rated 960, Heating capacity 960
Outdoor Unit AS-H09A4/*R - Refrigeration material - R407c.

Cooling Capacity (W) 2500
Heating Capacity (W) 2750

Specification and length of connecting pipe (mm)
Liquid Tube = 6. 35x0. 6x3600 (4500\5000\7000\7500)
Vapour Tube = 9. 52x0. 6x3600 (4500\5000\7000\7500)

I believe the outdoor unit is made by Toshiba.

Is it simply a question of fitting a coupler and brazing it on - where do I get the couplers from? Are 10mm plumbing pipes and couplers okay to use from Wickes? I was slightly concerned that it might not be sufficiently thick and could burst or leak.

The refrigerant is still in the main outdoor unit. I wasnt going to touch the outdoor unit until all the pipes had been feed through and after that I was going to follow the instructions about connecting up the pipes.

I had come across the site below http://www.mc-distribution.fr/liaisons-gb.htm#05 - SEE INSULATED FLARED PIPING - thatís the type of pipe work that was supplied. Unfortunately the company is in France. Does anyone know of a UK based supplier?

Or does anyone recommend that I cut out the kink and use a coupler and a small piece of pipe to join the two ends? If so what type of copper pipe and coupler would you recommend I buy (giving that thickness of these pipes seems to play such an important role in refrigeration).

What supplier would you recommend for either option?

Does Eggs suggestion of using "a 10mm radiator pipe repair kit" sound okay?

If you need any further information then please just ask away.

Thanks

Steve

frank
08-07-2005, 09:17 AM
Hi Steve

I think Eggs was pulling your leg :D

If and when you get your pipework completed, do you intend to evacuate the pipework before you release the refrigerant from the outdoor unit?

stevews
08-07-2005, 09:30 AM
Hi Frank,

The instructions given in the manual suggest you remove all the excess air from the pipes. It then guides you how to do that using the release valves.

I presume that is what you meant by "evacuate the pipework"

Any ideas on what type of pipe and couplings I should buy?

Thanks for your note about Eggs response - I wouldnt have a clue whether he was right or not.

Steve

davo
08-07-2005, 10:22 AM
This particular system came with pre-flared 5m x 10mm pipes and 5m x 6mm pipes.

Having installed the indoor unit carefully without kinking the copper pipes, I wasnít so lucky when I connected the last 10mm pipe to the outside unit. I gave the pipe such a bad kink I donít think the gas will get trough properly.

My question is two fold.

A) Can I simple purchase another fully prepared i.e. pre-flared 10mm pipe, 5m in length?

b) Purchase a few couplings to make the job easier in the first place and avoid another mistake of kinking a pipe when trying to bend it?

All I can establish about purchasing copper pipe is the thickness of it and how that tends to tends to be relevant to the preinstalled frigerant gas - my system uses R407c.

Can anyone recommend a supplier in the UK that could supply either of the two options above? a link would be great.

I would extremely grateful for any advice as I feel such an idiot about ruining the whole installation because of 1 stupid mistake.

Look forward to hearing from you guys soon.

Steve


steve, i would head down to the local plumbing shop or if you no a plumber, and grab a flaring kit and re-flare the pipe, its not hard. if you got this far in the installation i think you could work it out. you have to remove the kink. or if you are extremmely handy i have seen the pipe soldered to the valve fitting on the side of the unit. the copper will have to come from a refrigeration wholesaler. or if you don't need much hit a local fridgy up for a metre or so. or try asking for 5m with two flares on either end and swing them some cash. but all i can stress to you is once you have it piped up evacuate the system with a vavuum pump. do not purge refrigerant to atmosphere. it sounds like a small split and if you over purge you will loose half of your gas charge anyway. i would go the extra effort to try to re-flare it and of you do it right it will never bother you if you do a quick fix in refrigeration you are asking for trouble

Karl Hofmann
08-07-2005, 10:25 AM
Steve, to evacuate thoes pipes, you'll need access to a vacuum pump, whoever wrote those instructions needs to be beaten about the head with a wet fish, the kink is not a problem, it can be either cut out and the pipe re brazed (NOT soft soldered) or replace the pipe and re flair the ends, the pipe is available at refrigeration wholesalers, please dont be tempted to use the pipe used for heating systems, it is just not up to the job, besides your pipe is imperial and plumbers pipe is metric.

From what I understand the instructions they suggest that you purge the pipes using refrigerant, this is not acceptable, and illegal. This is what I fear most from DIY kits, not that this is a proper DIY kit, rather than a split system sold with a bit of copper tube.

chemi-cool
08-07-2005, 04:30 PM
Now that all my distinguished friend said their words, let give you another aspect,

Get a pro to finish the job and you will be able to enjoy your purchase.

Chemi :)

eggs
08-07-2005, 05:30 PM
Stevews, you really should have done some research before you bought that pile of trouble.
I presume you have paid about £250 for your DIY set ?
For appx £900-£1000 you could have had profesionally installed system, complete in less than a day, complete with a GENUINE 3 year warrenty, Manufactured by a high quality Japanese company, with a houshold name. eg Mistsubishi, Hitachi, or even a GENUINE Toshiba, not just an old, excess stock Tosh compressor.

Count your losses, get onto a local contractor and get a quote for a pro install and some pro kit.

If you want to check your quote, ask away.
Anybody here can beat the pro systems "comet" are trying to flog for £2500.

Cheers

eggs

frank
08-07-2005, 06:24 PM
Hi Steve

Basically, you are in a bit of a mess.

You have kinked the suction line trying your hardest to install the system and now you have a choice.
1) Try to buy some replacement pipework and attempt to make a repair - you need to braze the joint by the way not solder. For this you will need an expander set (£200), minimum Mapp gas torch and cupro rods (more £££'s) + soft coiled refrigeration quality copper pipework.
2) After the repair you will need to pressurise the system to eliminate any leaks and to strength test your installation. (Bottle of OFN from BOC + service gauges) (more £££'s)
3) Once you can determine that the system is gas tight you then need to evacuate the system (service gauges you have already bought + vacuum pump) (£400)
4) Then you can open the valves and hope that you have sufficient refrigerant in the outdoor unit to produce a balanced system. If you have too much refrigerant you will lose the compresser fairly quickly (very much expensive £££'s) or if you have too little refrigerant you will not get the cooling effect you expect and you will eventually lose the compresser through a lack of cooling gas (£££'s).
5) As you have purchased the service gauges (a must!) you will be able to see all this happening in front of your eyes - but as you are not trained in refrigeration you will not be able to see what the gauges are telling you.

This seems like you are trying to save a penny to make a pound.

Would you honestly try to fit a new boiler and central heating? or a new electrical distribution board in your house? why think that refrigeration (or air conditioning) is any different?

To do any job correctly you need 2 things
1) the correct tools for the job
2) knowledge about what you are doing

I've been to recent installations on R407c where the correct vacuum proceedures have not been applied and the refrigerant absorbs moisture and turns into a black slimey concoction. Not only does this cause the loss of the compresser but it also contaminates the system which then has to be scapped.

Cut your losses mate and contact a local fridge guy to finish your installation, it will be cheaper in the long run :)

benijoseph
08-07-2005, 06:52 PM
Mr, stve,
R u Learning airconditioning ? then it is fine, or
u want to try thinking that U can do it your self ? then U R
WRONG . TAKE help of a R&C mechanic , TRY to help him
in the process U will able to do some thing for that AC,
other wise U will be spending on it and finaly it will be in your Attic!


all the best, :D
BENI JOSEPH,

jamcool
08-07-2005, 07:20 PM
get a pro. mate in the long run u will save money when it is done properlly.
all the best.

piston broke
08-07-2005, 07:29 PM
Now then Mr IT Engineer, now you know why the server rooms you work in have proper a/c installed by proffesional tradesmen.

Stop trying to take our jobs from us get the right people to carry out the installation.

PIST :D

Andy W
08-07-2005, 08:10 PM
What area are you in by the way, if you are in my area I would gladly offer you help or advice.

bobjob
08-07-2005, 08:59 PM
Hi steve

If I am local to you no problem for me also to help, i will just send the apprentice around with flare block etc to try and get the kink out of the pipe.

I have just installed a number of D.I.Y. systems for local people
and for the price they payed for the equipment at around £250 -£300 for a 3.5KW heat pump unit with 4m of insulated pipes plus electrical cable. I think they are good value for money.

I cannot condone the installation instuctions about purging the air from the pipes by cracking open the smaller shut off valve for 8 secounds and blowing the air and (some refrigerant) out of the scraider valve of the suction valve, but I guess if you do not have the correct equipment that is the only way

Bobjob

Abe
08-07-2005, 09:10 PM
Hi Steve
Cut your losses mate and contact a local fridge guy to finish your installation, it will be cheaper in the long run :)


I second...........

stevews
09-07-2005, 11:05 AM
Hi steve

If I am local to you no problem for me also to help, i will just send the apprentice around with flare block etc to try and get the kink out of the pipe.

I have just installed a number of D.I.Y. systems for local people
and for the price they payed for the equipment at around £250 -£300 for a 3.5KW heat pump unit with 4m of insulated pipes plus electrical cable. I think they are good value for money.

I cannot condone the installation instuctions about purging the air from the pipes by cracking open the smaller shut off valve for 8 secounds and blowing the air and (some refrigerant) out of the scraider valve of the suction valve, but I guess if you do not have the correct equipment that is the only way

Bobjob

Hi Bobjob and Andy W,

I cant thank you two enough for showing some human compassion. I have been really surprised at the way some people have responded to my problem. They all sound narcissistic (most of them probably wont know what that means anyway if you look at their command of English), obnoxious, sarcastic and damn right rude.

Itís no wonder that some businesses go bust if they employ people with such low standards, especially when it comes a distinct lack of customer care. Perhaps I could recommend they attend a training course on Customer Care?

Yes I do work in IT and have been for the past 18 years with the same company (so I must have done something right).

All I wanted was to learn more about air conditioning and at the same time do my best with installing a system at home.

It has now turned out to be more complicated than I first realised, so I am putting that down to experience. Some of you might say that I was gullible believing that I could do it in the first place. Unfortunately when you are guided by these so called ďair conditioningĒ suppliers who advertise on the Web and state in their adverts that a system can be installed by anyone with good DIY skills then I am afraid that its companies like that which are failing the general public and should be prosecuted by Trading Standards for displaying such misleading or inappropriate information.

Bobjob and Andy W, I would jump at the chance of taking up your kind offer of help but I am afraid being based in Lewisham (SE London) you are too far from me to travel?

If anyone is local to me or is perhaps travelling to London and could help me complete the installation then please get in touch.

stevews

Karl Hofmann
09-07-2005, 12:10 PM
Hi Steve,

I'm afraid that you'll find that the attitudes of engineers towards DIY ers and DIY Kits vary greatly, some see DIY as the end of their profession, others such as Bob and Andy see it as an opportunity, as for myself, well I'm not too sure but I feel that DIY may be a good thing for me also. I guess the problem with the British is that we only see the finished product and say to our selves "Ha! any fool can do that" The fact that we see our computer networks working just fine leads us to the conclusion that a job in IT is a soft job, but what we don't see is the work that has gone in to make such a slick system, dont be too hard on the guys, they really do know their stuff, but dont want to be devalued. As for Customer Care, people only want to know us in the Summer when our work load is never ending and will take the first engineer that they can get, grumpy or not. My view is that a smile never hurts, unless you have chapped lips :D Sadly I'm in Crewe, and rarely travel far in the Summer but perhaps someone else further south can help you out.

piston broke
09-07-2005, 05:24 PM
Hi Bobjob and Andy W,

They all sound narcissistic (most of them probably wont know what that means anyway if you look at their command of English), obnoxious, sarcastic and damn right rude.

stevews


To quote Woody Allen - If were to compare myself to a Greek God it wouldn't be Narcissis, it would be Zeus.

By the way you don't require a capital 'E' on the word english.

On a more serious note, you are being mis-sold. I don't blame you, I blame these evil marketing men. Why not take it up with them and let us know how you get on.

Sorry if I upset you. Good luck in getting it sorted out.

PIST :D

frank
09-07-2005, 05:50 PM
I cant thank you two enough for showing some human compassion. I have been really surprised at the way some people have responded to my problem. They all sound narcissistic (most of them probably wont know what that means anyway if you look at their command of English), obnoxious, sarcastic and damn right rude.

I was only trying to be realistic and helpful :eek:

Daddy Cool
11-07-2005, 09:55 AM
Hi Steve,

Don't take it too personally, you have stumbled onto a hornets nest. if you work in IT, you must have encountered people who can change their screen savers and think they can re-write windows NT after reading windows for dummies, but end up breaking it.

Good luck.