Breaker pops with compressor in circuit

[Deniver45]

Hey guys,

I have a customer hit by lightning on a medium temp copeland F-series condensing unit; BELIEVE IT OR NOT , he moved and his "pal" moved the unit, PUT THE WHOLE condensing unit on the concrete floor OUTSIDE, out back = no ground, NO COVER, and NO cover on the controls box! I have replaced EVERYTHING but one of the condenser fans. He had a 60 amp breaker going into a 50 amp breaker and all that was roasted. I brazed a NEW CR38KQ-PFV into the condensing unit and the breaker POP's. When I take common, run and start OFF the compressor ( all = 118V ); the fans run, crankcase heater runs, all voltages are OK, and the compressor ohmes out FINE! Man, THIS ONE IS KICKING MY A$$! WHO has had this problem before! IS IT POSSIBLE that the start cap the supply house gave me is only 250V and NOT 330V? I didn't check that today, but I DID take the new breaker out, PULL the outer breaker ( J-BOX) OFF and replace the 50 amp indoor with 60 amp 220 and put a simple disconnect outside rather than another breaker which is to code.:confused:

[FEISTY]

For that much damage, and depending on his " insurance ", he could have had a new unit and a lot less headaches by now. Only you can see the rating on the cap so check it first. You can always replace a cap going UP in voltage but NEVER DOWN. Pull wiring off compressor and ohm out each WIRE with nothing in the circuit but the wire. You may have shorted or melted 1 or more of them in the power surge. Also double check the model of compressor against the condenser. I've been given the wrong match by counter and just took their word for what I asked for. Sounds more like bad wire[s] you don't see...yet !! Let us know what you find. It may help someone else. Thanks.

[Deniver45]

For that much damage, and depending on his " insurance ", he could have had a new unit and a lot less headaches by now. Only you can see the rating on the cap so check it first. You can always replace a cap going UP in voltage but NEVER DOWN. Pull wiring off compressor and ohm out each WIRE with nothing in the circuit but the wire. You may have shorted or melted 1 or more of them in the power surge. Also double check the model of compressor against the condenser. I've been given the wrong match by counter and just took their word for what I asked for. Sounds more like bad wire[s] you don't see...yet !! Let us know what you find. It may help someone else. Thanks.
Thanks for the reply Feisty! I don't know if he has insurance........"good point" though! That is what my pal at the supply house says = a BAD wire! I have replaced JUST ABOUT every single wire. I have ohmed all three at the compressor. FUNNY = the com / start ohm looks like the com / run number and visa versa. HAVE YOU EVER SEEN COPELAND SEND OUT A NEW COMPRESSOR W the start and run terminals REVERSED ON the compressor shell? Today I will pull that relay and check from 2 to 5 and also the compressor is the same number that was hit by the lightning. I will double check the start cap rating......... the old run cap is here, still ohmes OK, but is all rusted and swollen. There was SO MUCH WRONG here, it was unreal, I would have LOVED to throw a new condensing unit in there............... I charged only $1400 for this job! NEVER AGAIN! Next time = $3000 or I walk away....thanks again Fiesty.

[Deniver45]

Fiesty,
It turned out to be a shorted compressor from Copeland. DEFECTIVE FROM THE MANUFACTURER; in fact the 3 terminals on the compressor are as clean as new.......NO shorts here. I had REMADE every wire in the unit. I had wired its potential relay set-up THREE different ways. I know that you know as long as common and run go straight off the contactor to the compressor and the run wire is in the "start circuit", then it can be done 3 ways. I knew something was up when it didn't even go to overload, I actually thought it was STUCK IN overload. I never assumed that Cope would send out a 38,000 BTU defective, but here is the thing on those hermatic's. IF someone dropped this 75lb compressor, then it could have sent the common winding down to the compressors shell. I am aware that most compressors that go back are a wire out of place; but on a potential relay system with start and run cap it must be wired correctly or it will not get the surge it needs to start.

HERE IS HOW I WIRED THE SYSTEM =
A #1 on the relay goes to the start cap (usually a thin blue wire )
B #2 on the relay goes to the run cap (usually fat yellow)
C #5 on the relay goes to the contactor ( T1) where common comes off the contactor ( usually a blue wire)
D There is a THIN red jumper wire from the run cap to the start cap.
E Run (red OR orange wire) comes off (T2) off the contactor and also from T2 to the run cap is another yellow OR orange wire. It is OPOSITE the red jumper on the start cap.
F Sometimes a jumper from #1 and #2 of the relay is necessary depending on the amperage.
When I got the replacement compressor, I bolted her to its condenser place and the first thing I did NOW and forever aging is ohm from common to a GOOD ground on the condensing unit. ANY VALUED THERE = WINDINGS TO GROUND. I homed run and start to ground and all three = "OL" which means rock and roll. I left the supply house @ 5PM with the CR38KQ and had replaced the dryer again, reclaimed 10lbs of R-22, de-soldered, re-brazed with nitrogen......pumped up to 200lbs with dry nitrogen and "big blued" it and then pumped it down and re charged it, and by 7:30 PM she was running. The fact that the heat at the condenser was NOT that hot bothered me; still I had to go! They closed at 7 and I was out back in the dark. THE NEXT MORNING I get there, AND I WALK INTO THE COOLER AND IT WAS NOT THAT CHILLY. I had the end of the evap off ( a HUGE WATT 5 fan evap with only ONE TXV), well $HIT! There was a block of ICE there, and I suspect the 2 O-RINGS in the TXV were roasted from the lighting as I use the old rag in the bucket when I braze ( since 1983 ) and I WAS FOCKING PI$$ED! Again I reclaimed and opened the system, this time I capped the TXV (2 dryers now brazed in = NOT A 3rd), the only good thing was the TXV was 1/2 and 3/8 FLAIR. The person that moved this cooler 4 months ago put the TXV at an ELBOW behind the evaporator!

I HAD TO mount the new sensing bulb VERTICALLY on the manifold there, When you do that it MUST be 1/3 way down, on the "2 position on the clock”.... as usual, it can be #2, or 4 or #8, or #10 position on the clock; BUT there was no room except to #2, AND the bulb off the TXV must be mounted with the end of the bulb facing down to the ground, in other words the "pinched off" tip to the cap tube on the sensing bulb must be on the top when mounting the TXV vertically,and of course the tube comes out there too where she is pinched back to the TXV. So I cork insulated it again, THEN as pumping down, the frickin micron gauge would not drop off from "OL", Now I have a old thermal pump, but THAT pump is the bad boy, SO I held it @ -30 atmospheric ( the old fashioned way) and LEFT and went to a pal's house to get HIS 5 CFM pump and guess what? My NEW Fieldpiece micron gauge was bad, because I use ALL Ritchie ball ****s on all my hoses and the screw on "low loss" fittings too and RIGHT AFTER the micron gauge is a bullock and I DID turn it off with my pump and the SVG2 micron would NOT drop, so I assumed MY PUMP, then Brian's pump did the same thing = NO value on the micron. I then pulled it another 5 minutes, and dumped the 10 lbs back into the Parker 6 X 12 receiver = 10 lbs with R-22 and she got SO COLD, SO FAST, remember I flushed this baby with "quick flush" and after seeing this guy mounting a TXV bulb on AN ELBOW, I KNEW this person is just one of those guys who didn't care.
On the Parker receivers:

4" wide X 10 high = 4 pounds AND
5" wide X 10 high = 6 pounds AND
6" wide X 12 high = 12 lbs AND
6" high X 18 high = 16 pounds AND that is 90% capacity on R-22 and 134a, on 404a and 507, you must MULTIPLY that ammount of refrigerant X 0.9 which will give you LESS refrigerant. i live by that rule on initial charge in commercial refrigeration and MOST times, my super heat and subcoolant is on the money by 3 or 4 ounces. NOW ABOUT Fieldpiece, THEY make the most AWSOME meters for HVAC, on another page here I read guys ohming and AMPING capacitors, and my SC77 has the "MFD" where I take my leads on this clamp meter from Fieldpiece and in 10 seconds it tells me the MFD rating or goes to OL. WHAT MORE COULD YOU ASK FOR?

Thanks Pal,
D

"NEVER ASSUME IT IS ONLY ONE PROBLEM"

[goshen]

Hi seems rather intresting,from my experience when this happend to us only a new unit,no fixing !!

[monkey spanners]

Pleased you got her running!

Those Fieldpiece meters do look good but we don't get them over here.

I got a fluke clamp meter that did mfd when they firstr came out, but the first time i used it the selector knob fell off! took it back to the wholesalers and am still waiting, must be a couple of years now! for a replacement. I forgot about it until recently, but checked and the fluke rep just hasn't bothered doing anything about it! Last time i buy fluke stuff for me or anyone in my company.
I have a Di-Log meter now which does what i need but the mfd range doesn't go high enough for some start caps.

Jon :)

[Deniver45]

Jon,

If you need ANYTHING from FieldPiece, then you let me know. I know the head engineer there as well as the head designer..............and Warranty / Repair of course. I can personally ship anything to anyone on the globe; but they will do it for me!

I have been riding these guys for a SMALL plactic thermocouple ( they have 3 ) that is small to 1/8; which they have as their "black one" ( the other 2 are blue = HVAC ), now they have to 1/8, but the clamp is TOO BIG to take good super heat readings at the evaporator. After I was done with this one, she blew to freeze the beer bt 2 degrees, so I moved the cold control higher.

I know that Fluke stuff is not cheap, I bought some long leads for my SC77 meter with the "clamp" option and they were $65 alone, BUT at least when 100 amps is going through those = I have "piece of mind" and THAT you can't buy for a million dollars!

"NEVER ASSUME IT IS JUST ONE THING BAD"

One TXVs sensing bulb was on an elbo last week, and that bulb was crossed over an elbo.

[paul_h]

Pleased you got her running!

Those Fieldpiece meters do look good but we don't get them over here.

I got a fluke clamp meter that did mfd when they firstr came out, but the first time i used it the selector knob fell off! took it back to the wholesalers and am still waiting, must be a couple of years now! for a replacement. I forgot about it until recently, but checked and the fluke rep just hasn't bothered doing anything about it! Last time i buy fluke stuff for me or anyone in my company.
I have a Di-Log meter now which does what i need but the mfd range doesn't go high enough for some start caps.

Jon :)
I use fluke for a basic multimeter, but I find better to get dedicated stuff for other things.
Here a local retail electronics shop sells some capacitance meters that go up to 200uF for about $70. Accurate, but easy to break, unlike my old fluke 87III multimeter. I used that retailers home brand multimeters for a while until I got sick of breaking them, which is why I bought the fluke, it's unbreakable and it's best feature, but of course isn't good for capacitance tests.

Speaking of breaking stuff, I saw a good bit of gear from fieldpiece, measured accurately in milli ohms for inverter compressor windings. Instead of the general "1/1/1 ohm" you'd get from any multimeter, you could measure the windings exactly as they are, like 250/300/300 milli ohms. But yeah, very breakable too.
Useful though, like the capacitance meter I have, just that you'll have to buy more than one.
That's the one good thing about older fluke multimeters, they will last.

Of course annies measure capacitance too if you ever get around to getting one.
Don't forget a soldering iron, as the annoying things about start caps is you usually have to sweat off the resistor just to test.