Anhydrous Ammonia Leak Detection.

[Grizzly]

Is it Sulfur or Sulphur?
I guess it depends upon which version of English You use!
Does anyone know where I could purchase some Sulphur Sticks?
Also known as Sulphur Tapers!
Reason being I was trying to trace several small but annoying Ammonia leaks on an Industrial system today.
Where the customer had spent many days trying to pinpoint the leaks.

Just like him, my colleague and I could locate the general area using Gods own detector ( Your nose!)
I also have a Electronic Ammonia Detector from America. A brilliant bit of kit! But not local enough in this instance!

I resorted to Snoop and Gotec leak detection fluids.
Still no good!
Then I realised anything water based would be useless with Ammonia.
Eureka! I remembered several Sulphur sticks lurking in the back of my toolbox.
10 minutes later and the leaks were identified.

These have gone out of fashion in recent years, but I still don't know of a better method for identifying Ammonia leaks- (small ones of course!).

So repeating myself can anyone help?
Google brings up loads in America. But I have yet to
find a U.K. supplier.
Cheers Grizzly

[monkey spanners]

Just curious, how do the detect the leak?

Jon :)

[Andy]

Is it Sulfur or Sulphur?
I guess it depends upon which version of English You use!
Does anyone know where I could purchase some Sulphur Sticks?
Also known as Sulphur Tapers!
Reason being I was trying to trace several small but annoying Ammonia leaks on an Industrial system today.
Where the customer had spent many days trying to pinpoint the leaks.

Just like him, my colleague and I could locate the general area using Gods own detector ( Your nose!)
I also have a Electronic Ammonia Detector from America. A brilliant bit of kit! But not local enough in this instance!

I resorted to Snoop and Gotec leak detection fluids.
Still no good!
Then I realised anything water based would be useless with Ammonia.
Eureka! I remembered several Sulphur sticks lurking in the back of my toolbox.
10 minutes later and the leaks were identified.

These have gone out of fashion in recent years, but I still don't know of a better method for identifying Ammonia leaks- (small ones of course!).

So repeating myself can anyone help?
Google brings up loads in America. But I have yet to
find a U.K. supplier.
Cheers Grizzly
Hi Grizzly,
I think Pete at Polar Pumps brings them in from the US.

Kind Regards Andy:)

[Brian_UK]

Just curious, how do the detect the leak?

Jon :)
Got me thinking as well, good question.

Slow Google got: The smoke from the lighted stick increases in the precence of ammonia.

[Grizzly]

Hi MS.
Basically you light the taper, which is similar to a Joss stick or candle lighting taper.
Coloured Yellow on account of the " Sulphur impregnated in the stick.
When it is burning there is little or no smoke which is virtually colourless,
When ammonia vapour is present a dense white smoke cloud is formed.
Literally you can pass the stick over a valve etc. and watch the smoke spiral down to the source of the leak.
The only downside is as the stick burns it gives off sulphur dioxide.
Which can cause severe irritation to the eyes, nose, throat and lungs.
Much the same as Ammonia then!
Basically used for short periods sensibly they are brilliant.
But I suspect the "You can't do that".
Brigade are scared of them so. We all cannot use them!
WHATEVER!
Grizzly

[Gingerair]

As Andy said Polar Pumps in Donny, last time i got some off them they were in relatively small packets.
Also Pendle Refrigeration in Bury could also supply last time i asked, but think they were in larger amounts..

Ginge

[monkey spanners]

Hi MS.
Basically you light the taper, which is similar to a Joss stick or candle lighting taper.
Coloured Yellow on account of the " Sulphur impregnated in the stick.
When it is burning there is little or no smoke which is virtually colourless,
When ammonia vapour is present a dense white smoke cloud is formed.
Literally you can pass the stick over a valve etc. and watch the smoke spiral down to the source of the leak.
The only downside is as the stick burns it gives off sulphur dioxide.
Which can cause severe irritation to the eyes, nose, throat and lungs.
Much the same as Ammonia then!
Basically used for short periods sensibly they are brilliant.
But I suspect the "You can't do that".
Brigade are scared of them so. We all cannot use them!
WHATEVER!
Grizzly

I've always wondered how they worked.

The only ammonia stuff i've seen was the MMB (milk marketing board) plant in Felinfach, wales as a kid, dad was there fixing a fridge truck, they had three big cream coloured (appropriatly enough!) compressors with three banks of cylinders in a plant room, i think they were 200 ton systems.
The guy on site showed us round another plant room with row upon row three cylinder prestcold comps running on R22.
Scared me to death! the biggest thing i'd worked on before was a 1.5hp prestcold :D

Jon :)

[william_wye]

Hi does anyone have good literature on ammonia refrigeration.

[Tony]

Hi Grizzly,

Seward Refrigeration Ltd, 0161 7240357 sell them.

[brian_chapin]

In the states you can get them from almost any anhydrous ammonia supplier. I suspect the same might be true the world 'round.

[R717Kid]

Just about any refrigeration contractor of size has a parts department where things like this can be ordered through.

There are three other methods.

One is the use of litmus paper which will react in the presense of ammonia.

In the past, when changing chlorine cylinders at a water treatment facility, and wearing a respirator, the use of cloudy ammonia (diluted) was used in a bottle that when squeezed will produce vapor. That in turn was used to check for chlorine leaks(produces white whisp). However, the opposite method can be used with diluted bleach. I can't emphasize caution enough though. But it will show the sources of small leaks.

If the portion of the system in quesiton can be pumped down and isolated, use dry nitrogen to pressurize it and then use dish washing liquid (on the outside of course). Bubbles will form at the source of the leak.

[Quality]

Is it Sulfur or Sulphur?
I guess it depends upon which version of English You use!
Does anyone know where I could purchase some Sulphur Sticks?
Also known as Sulphur Tapers!
Reason being I was trying to trace several small but annoying Ammonia leaks on an Industrial system today.
Where the customer had spent many days trying to pinpoint the leaks.

Just like him, my colleague and I could locate the general area using Gods own detector ( Your nose!)
I also have a Electronic Ammonia Detector from America. A brilliant bit of kit! But not local enough in this instance!

I resorted to Snoop and Gotec leak detection fluids.
Still no good!
Then I realised anything water based would be useless with Ammonia.
Eureka! I remembered several Sulphur sticks lurking in the back of my toolbox.
10 minutes later and the leaks were identified.

These have gone out of fashion in recent years, but I still don't know of a better method for identifying Ammonia leaks- (small ones of course!).

So repeating myself can anyone help?
Google brings up loads in America. But I have yet to
find a U.K. supplier.
Cheers Grizzly

PM me your Address I will send ya some, Ive got loads;)

[CHIEF DELPAC]

Grizzly The best leak detector for small or hard to find NH3 leaks is any small scratch or nick on your fingers. Ive become aware of leaks many times by the burning sensation when NH3 hits injured skin. Mind you I am not recomending this as away to find leaks. I have found over the years that the sulphur sticks will get you to the general area of the leak then I pinpoint it with litmus paper or my wounded fingers. C.D.

[CHIEF DELPAC]

R717Kid Interesting using Chlorine for leak detecting I am not so sure that I would want Chlorine around any electrical controls or any seals or glands. I think I will give it a try. The smoke from sulphur sticks and NH3 is rather nasty. hopefully Chlorine for leak detecting will not be so vile. C.D.

[Grizzly]

Thanks guys,one and all!

Andy, Gingeair and Tony.
Thanks for the info, very kind.
MS you have been sniffing Milk to long my friend.
Brian Chapman. Sadly in the U.K. it is not always as easy as the USA to locate and purchase commodities.
Hence my post!
717 kid. Just way to scary options, way to scary.
No BA necessary with Sulphur sticks!
Quality. Thanks for your kind offer, I will pm you.
I suspect that I will be able to return the compliment sometime!
Chief Delpac.
They must come "Hard" around your part of the world.
You use your pain detector, I will stick to the afore mentioned method.
By the time I have bits of me on fire!
I am thinking about a calculated retreat from the area!
Been there done that, not recommended!
Grizzly

[Peter_1]

I use Litmus paper on a small handy roller (+/- 5 cm diameter and the paper is +/- 6 mm wide), I roll it out, tear a piece of +/- 4 to 5 and make it wet my tongue. You go around the suspected places and as soon there's a leak, it discolors from blue to purple. If you have a scratch and it itches, then you already have normally seen a big leak.http://www.mn-net.com/Portals/7/Images_FT/Fotos-Web/907-Web/907-Web-200-150/91107-2.gif

[Peter_1]

I use Litmus paper on a small handy roller (+/- 5 cm diameter and the paper is +/- 6 mm wide),

Looked in my van this morning, it 's coming from Merck http://www.merck-chemicals.com/united-kingdom/ph-indicator-paper-litmus-paper-blue/MDA_CHEM-109486/p_sfib.s1LeHQAAAEWMeIfVhTl

[R717Kid]

Grizzly,

Again, using caution is of utmost concern. The mixture is usually 50/50 water/bleach and using only the vapors of the mixture. I prefer the other methods, but this works in a pinch.

[Grizzly]

Hi Peter.
I have some Phenolphthalien (Red Litmus).
But I must admit I gave up on it years ago.
By the way we were always told to use water preferably distilled.
As your spit is not always at a neutral Ph.
But like you I used to lick it!
717kid thanks for the further explanation.
As they say knowledge is power.

Your method may prove of use one day.
Once again thanks Guys!
To all the other Stinkies out there cheers and breathe carefully!

[McFranklin]

The company I buy them from in the U.S. is: Kobbe-McCawley LLC.
If you are really interested you might try contacting them and see if they have a European distributor.
135 Ore Knob Road
Jefferson, NC 28640
(336) 982-3107
I'm not at work so I got the address and phone number off the web, so I'm not certain they are correct. We sell them at work, but they are a courtesy item. And international shipping and customs are not things to be taken lightly.

[Magoo]

Hi Grizzly.
If you really get stuck get some sulphur powder and burn it in a teaspoon, same result. You can buy small amounts from local pharmacy, cheap as chips.
magoo

[Grizzly]

Hi Grizzly.
If you really get stuck get some sulphur powder and burn it in a teaspoon, same result. You can buy small amounts from local pharmacy, cheap as chips.
magoo

Hi Magoo.
I was thinking along the lines of getting some flowers of Sulphur, (I believe that's the name).
And some candle wick material to make some sticks myself.
Thanks for the info though!
Grizzly

[HallsEngineer]

Honeywell,
Crowcon,
There are lots depends howmuch you want to spend.

[Grizzly]

Honeywell,
Crowcon,
There are lots depends howmuch you want to spend.

Did you read my post or just the Headline?

Grizzly.

[zolimer]

I don't know if this has been covered due to the sheer volume of participation in this thread and my unwillingness to read all of the replies but, Sulfur sticks are great for localizing the source of the leak but, Soap and bubbles are best at pinpointing the source!

Litmus paper is another tool that is used for localizing the source, But it's use involves much more work to find the leak! Therefore a waste of time in my opinion!

One of my favorites is the old rub the the site of the potential leak and then sniff the hand trick! And that doesn't cost anything!

[Grizzly]

Soap and bubbles are best at pinpointing the source!
Whenever I try and use soap and bubbles I find it a wast of time.
On account of the fact that the water is absorbed to readily by the Ammonia!




One of my favorites is the old rub the the site of the potential leak and then sniff the hand trick! And that doesn't cost anything!
Cant stick your hand up to a Say! Leaking Shaft seal.
Not without stripping Half the drive/ Guards etc off!
[/QUOTE]

Sorted now I am glad to say.
Many thanks Grizzly

[IceMan_4000]

Grizzly The best leak detector for small or hard to find NH3 leaks is any small scratch or nick on your fingers. Ive become aware of leaks many times by the burning sensation when NH3 hits injured skin. Mind you I am not recomending this as away to find leaks. I have found over the years that the sulphur sticks will get you to the general area of the leak then I pinpoint it with litmus paper or my wounded fingers. C.D.


Thanks Chief Delpac

That made me laugh. many a time have a found a leak I was not looking for via hang nail or a cut.

but I do not think I have gone out of my way to find a leak with a wounded finger.

:o

[Tycho]

We have lots of them, and I know KER in Ireland buys them from us (www.ker.ie)

you can also use hydrochloric acid to find ammonia leaks, pour a little in a plastic squeeze bottle with a nozzle on it, you use the fumes from the hydrochloric acid by squeezing the bottle to blow the fumes around the area of the suspected leak. it will create a white smoke much similar to the sulfur sticks, but without the noxious fumes.

it takes a little longer to use, as each time you have squeezed the bottle, it will pull in air, and you have to wait a second before the fumes build up again.

http://images.buyitsellit.com/1035495.jpg

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GGgSpX3k_5I

[Quality]

You learn something new every day
Is it as good as a sulfur stick? my experience and experiments with sulfur sticks prove they can detect leaks at less than 5ppm

[zolimer]

Whenever I try and use soap and bubbles I find it a wast of time.
On account of the fact that the water is absorbed to readily by the Ammonia!



Cant stick your hand up to a Say! Leaking Shaft seal.
Not without stripping Half the drive/ Guards etc off!


Sorted now I am glad to say.
Many thanks Grizzly[/QUOTE]
Grizzly,

Soap bubbles have never failed me as long as the systems pressure was relatively higher than atmosphere!
Sure you could discount the usefulness of touching the potential leak and smelling it because it may require some disassembly in about 1 fifth of 1 percent of the system that I have been charged with!

Heck I would counter that there is no such thing as a perfect leak detection method! How would your sulfer stick do in 50 mile per hour winds? In that case the sniffing your hand trick would work!

[Grizzly]

Sorted now I am glad to say.
Many thanks Grizzly
Grizzly,

Soap bubbles have never failed me as long as the systems pressure was relatively higher than atmosphere!
Sure you could discount the usefulness of touching the potential leak and smelling it because it may require some disassembly in about 1 fifth of 1 percent of the system that I have been charged with!

Heck I would counter that there is no such thing as a perfect leak detection method! How would your sulfer stick do in 50 mile per hour winds? In that case the sniffing your hand trick would work![/quote]


Each to their own, as they say.

I must say I have never tried to leak check in 50 mph winds. (must be big bubbles?)
The last thing i would be doing is sniffing my hand.
If you bother to read my post correctly.
I actually refer to gods own leak detector.
I just did not where to do the sniffing.
Grizzly

[RANGER1]

On the east coast of Australia we submerge the whole system under water & check for bubbles.:eek:
I also found a leak which I could'nt forget.

Was working on a S87 Sabroe(Stal) package where they have a blow down valve on the dischage line.
you have to lean over it to work on the couplingetc, its about groin height:rolleyes:

[Grizzly]

On the east coast of Australia we submerge the whole system under water & check for bubbles.:eek:
I also found a leak which I could'nt forget.

Was working on a S87 Sabroe(Stal) package where they have a blow down valve on the dischage line.
you have to lean over it to work on the couplingetc, its about groin height:rolleyes:

I have to say with such a brilliant sense of Humour, you just have to have some Brit in you.

I have been working on some mini stals lately but have yet to discover the delights of an Ammonia vasectomy.:D
Even worse if you like to bend over back-wards to help!
Cheers Grizzly

[Quality]

I could not take the theory on board at first !!
But I Now think its the best way without a doubt

chin up

[RANGER1]

Grizzly,
Grandparents were from Isle of Mann but don't know if that means anything
good or bad!

[Magoo]

Hi Ranger 1.
has the tide gone out yet at your place.
Had to laugh at your Stal experience. Reminded me of a call out several years ago with leak in ceiling space from a PM solenoid vav when the pilot decided to let go spraying sub cooled liquid. The alarm system and vent fans worked a treat but I was walking around in a mist about waist height, the plant engineer was on the end of life line doing the highland fling, after isolating leak and going back outside the plant engineer dropped his tweeds and stuffed a water hose down his shorts, much to the delite of all female staff in assembly area.
He was young and newly married and had explain really hard why his bollocks needed massaging [ regularly ] with cold cream.

[Grizzly]

Hi Ranger 1.
has the tide gone out yet at your place.
Had to laugh at your Stal experience. Reminded me of a call out several years ago with leak in ceiling space from a PM solenoid vav when the pilot decided to let go spraying sub cooled liquid. The alarm system and vent fans worked a treat but I was walking around in a mist about waist height, the plant engineer was on the end of life line doing the highland fling, after isolating leak and going back outside the plant engineer dropped his tweeds and stuffed a water hose down his shorts, much to the delite of all female staff in assembly area.
He was young and newly married and had explain really hard why his bollocks needed massaging [ regularly ] with cold cream.

Priceless:D

You can't make this stuff up can you.

I had a good blast right up my nose the other week.
I was opening up a SMC 108 which had been off for a week and well purged. (Or so I thought.)
This machine was suffering from fluctuating oil pressure.
Where as the oil pressure dropped off so did the running amps of the comp motor.
As Historically this particular machine had, had the same problem before.
Where the oils strainer assembly had rotated exposing some of the perforated filter area to suction pressure / gas as the oil level did likewise.
Anyway as I pulled the sump cover off on the withdrawal studs. I stupidly took a large breath.
I had forgotten how much it hurts your nose.
Good to get a reminder occasionally.
For those who do not know it's like taking a good sniff of smelling salts.
Not harmful but unpleasant all the same.
The filter assembly was Sound as it turns out the state of the oil was the issue.
A quick oil change resolved the issue.
Grizzly

[Plank!]

Hi Peter.
I have some Phenolphthalien (Red Litmus).
But I must admit I gave up on it years ago.
By the way we were always told to use water preferably distilled.
As your spit is not always at a neutral Ph.
But like you I used to lick it!

Licking Phenolphthalien paper is a REALLY BAD idea - it's used as a commercial grade laxative and linked to bowel cancer.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Phenolphthalein
http://www.jtbaker.com/msds/englishhtml/p2015.htm

wet with distilled water, mineral water, melted ice from a valve station etc...It works well, just not worth the risk of licking the stuff ;)

[Grizzly]

Nice to see you back Plank.
Thanks for the info.
I guess I will give the litmus Paper a miss.
Thanks Grizzly

[Plank!]

Nice to see you back Plank.

It has been a couple of years since I posted, good to see many of the same names/faces and even some of the same threads still here ;)

[samlee12]

I usually use nose to find appr. leak area, then use sulfur stick to then locate to smaller area then finally lipmus paper to pinpoint leak, soap will also work.

[Quality]

It has been a couple of years since I posted, good to see many of the same names/faces and even some of the same threads still here ;)
Where have ya been Plank ?

[Plank!]

Where have ya been Plank ?

Busy etc ;)