Please help - Legal case pending

[coffeeandice]

Hi all. I am new to this website but thought I would ask the experts their advice.

I am not an engineer but own a shopfitting company that deal with mainly ice cream parlours. We use excellent sub-contractors who generally know their stuff. We supplied a ventilated ice cream display to a customer who did not have any problems for months after delivery.

5 months after delivery, the customer had some problems which were due to not defrosting not cleaning the condenser. We sorted these problems out but he kept on calling us out with nothing wrong with his display 9we checked all temperatures and found the cabinet was working correctly).

Now the customer is trying to take us to court saying the cabinet is not fit for purpose and they got another engineer to change the evaporator as a TEMPORARY repair 8 months after delivery.

Please help me with the following:
1. Can changing the evaporator be considered temporary?

2. They say evaporator was damaged on delivery. If so we believe the gas would have leaked more quickly than 8 months. Is this correct?

3. Could the cabinet have held temperature for many months after delivery if there was a crack in the evaporator?

4. The cabinet is working still to date nearly s year on but the customer says it is not fir for purpose.

Obviously we know many people in the industry that all say the same but I would like to know your genuine thoughts. we try to give good service to the customers but this is obviously difficult with this customer.

Please help. Thanks in advance

[Tesla]

Hi coffeeandice (http://www.refrigeration-engineer.com/forums/member.php?u=45503)
Sorry this situation has come to legal action. You wil likely need to employ a consultant who will employ others. Check and become familiar with contract law in you area, here we have "duty of care". 1 = yes. 2 = possible. 3 = yes. 4 = Debatable on technical and local law.
If he is taking you to court you have no choice but to defend it (on principle) if you think you are right or settle. There may be other avenues but stick to the law and follow just principles - your profits should have some funds for this.

[chillin out]

Is this not the time of the year when ice-cream sells the most???

I would go round and threaten to remove the display, then see how he sells anything.

If he objects to the machine getting removed then it's obviously fit for purpose...

Chillin:):)

[B G Scott]

First get your conditions of sale checked by some one with legal qualifications.
Your contract with the customer should have been based on your conditions of sale.
Did you confirm the order stating that the order was accepted subject to your conditions of sale?
I feel that by getting a third party to work on the equipment means any guarantee would have been invalidated.
Further if it comes to court have you documented the service visits with results, temperatures etc.?
Make sure all your information and documentation are water tight.
If the man is intent on getting his day in court you must be well prepared, get the service man to hand write any observations in addition to copies of the work sheet etc.
The better prepared you are the more likely it is you will be successful in defending this matter.
First consult your legal adviser and get their feelings but by and large it is always better to resolve these matters without going to court, it will cost you even if you win.

[coffeeandice]

thanks for your replies everyone. sorry I may not have made myself clear!
We have a full legal company dealing with it and we are positive about our case. My issue is mainly just to clarify the 'technical' side:
1: If the evaporator had a crack from manufacture or delivery, how quickly would the cabinet stop performing to the correct temperatures?
2. This is a 'hot gas defrost' and as such would be under high pressure - would this shorten the timespan before the cabinet stops working?
3. Can changing an evaporator be considered 'temporary'? surely that part is a major component and therefore if changed would be considered for the long term.

Basically your expert refrigeration advice would be appreciated. Just in your own opinion how long would it take for a cabinet to stop working properly.

By the way..... I would love to take the cabinet out and watch his face but as he has already threatened me before I would rather stay businesslike.

Thanks again for your advice

[frank]

Please do not post the same question around the forum. One post will do the same job.

[coffeeandice]

sorry.... just trying to get some clarification. won't do it again!!!! wrist slapped :)

[coolhibby1875]

like chillin say's, go around and tell him you are taking the case away and offer a full refund! he will not agree to this and demand to keep the cabinet, at court at least this will go a long way in the eyes of the judge, but to answer your question, if this come out the factory with a cracked evaporator, and the system is hot gas defrost, there is no way in the world it would last 5 months! it sounds like the guy is just trying to mug you off, stick to your guns and fight him all the way, after all its a bit of machinery, and we all know that machinery breaks down from time to time!!

[monkey spanners]

I wouldn't regard replacing the evaporator a temporary fix, unless they have fitted the wrong one because it was all they could get at short notice.

[coolhibby1875]

Please do not post the same question around the forum. One post will do the same job.


why? i have been using this forum for a few years now (much to my enjoyment may i add) and only ever venture into only 4 or 5 different sections of the forum, so what harm does it do to post your question in more than 1 section of the forum? and is it really worth making the poster feel small for having to appolgise to everyone at your say so, i am not trying to push the boat here but i would love to know why moderators feel the need to felx there muscles for something so petty?:confused:

[coffeeandice]

Thanks for that. I have asked many engineers the same question and all come back with the same answers..... no way the refrigerant would stay in there that long and that the cabinet would be having problems in a matter of days.... possibly weeks but no longer.

Thanks Monkey for the reply.... correct evaporator they say it was damaged either when manufactured or on delivery. No other damage to cabinet though and the evaporator is an internal one! Is it possible that this could have been damaged when chiseling ice off to try to defrost rather than turn the cabinet off?

[coolhibby1875]

Thanks for that. I have asked many engineers the same question and all come back with the same answers..... no way the refrigerant would stay in there that long and that the cabinet would be having problems in a matter of days.... possibly weeks but no longer.

Thanks Monkey for the reply.... correct evaporator they say it was damaged either when manufactured or on delivery. No other damage to cabinet though and the evaporator is an internal one! Is it possible that this could have been damaged when chiseling ice off to try to defrost rather than turn the cabinet off?

i have never seen an internal evaporator which has been changeable, external yes, internal no!!

[monkey spanners]

I have seen a few evaporators that have been damaged by customers chipping ice off...

[coffeeandice]

Thanks again. This evaporator isn't 'changeable' but in this case had a major repair done that we believe couldn't have been done on delivery.

Really appreciate your help.... it confirms all our proof that this cabinet was ok on delivery, ok 4 months later (apart from neglect to defrost) and damaged by the customer.

[cool runings]

.

Evaporators are quite weak by nature and if one had a problem from manufacture or building then 6 or 8 months for the fault to show is perhaps unlikly.

If the case has had no mantenance done and it has iced up over time then somone defrosting the evap manualy could damage it and I have seen it happen countless times over the years.

I would ask why the ice cream parlar felt the need to get someone else in if it was still under warrentee.

UNLESS they had damaged it and had somthing to hide.

But you need an indipendent expert to inspect the freezer and give a report of the condition and any damage that may be seen.

If it has been damaged while defrosting it will be easy to see to an experienced eye.

So start by getting an indipendant second opinion and see where that leads.

It may stop the court case if nothing else and it will indicate your responsibility or the customers responcibility. If he is responsible then his warentee is void and he will owe you for your time.
If it is your responsibility you will have to make good.


coolrunnings

[coffeeandice]

The customer has changed this part and now has the new one without the old part so it is impossible for us to inspect. All we have is some pictures of the damaged one that was changed.

This customer obviously want to go to court. he is not asking for the repair money but for a brand new cabinet, compensation, court costs etc. The brand new cabinet is because his solicitor is saying the evaporator change is only a 'temporary repair'.

He called us out for non warranty work so we charged him for this and he has never paid. He preferred to pay 5 times our invoice for the evaporator change through someone else rather than paying or invoice and letting us continue to warranty the equipment.

Some people I guess just want their day in court but we feel we haven't broken the agreement.

1. From when they said their were problems they wanted "money". More than they even paid.

2. The first problem was due to non-defrosting and the draining ppe were clogged up with nuts, crumbs etc. The condenser and evaporator tray were filthy.

3. We went out to that non-warranty work and another 2 times.

4. We charged him for the 4th visit which he didnt pay.

5. He complained still problems (now 6/7 months after delivery - cabinet still freezing on or visits). We said he needed to pay invoice before any further work would continue.

6. He threatened court for more money than he paid.

7. He still continues to use the cabinet (various people have gone in there to check).

aaarrrgggghhhhhh.... sorry but this is frustrating as you can imagine!

My main reason for the post was the technical side of the evaporator (how quickly the refrigerant would leak). For us it makes no sense that if it was damaged on delivery or manufacture (he has signed to say all ok on delivery) in August, that there were no issues with the evaporator until January. surely it would have struggled to reach temperature before not working at all??? The evaporator was changed finally end April / May. Could it still be working at this time?

4. We charged

[frank]

why? i have been using this forum for a few years now (much to my enjoyment may i add) and only ever venture into only 4 or 5 different sections of the forum, so what harm does it do to post your question in more than 1 section of the forum? and is it really worth making the poster feel small for having to appolgise to everyone at your say so, i am not trying to push the boat here but i would love to know why moderators feel the need to felx there muscles for something so petty?:confused:
If your question is posted in the correct section the first time, it should generate responses from the people who have an interest in that section and therefore, you should not need to repeat the post in other areas. Posting a 'Transport' problem in the 'Domestic' section would not generate many replies as the Transport guys don't normally visit the Domestic section.
Some members get frustrated when they visit different sections and read the same post over and over, which generates complaints.

If you look around the forum, you will see that it is kept clear of spam and adverts, for the benefit of the members, by the Mods.

My post was not intended to make the OP 'feel small' it was just a simple request to prevent further multi posts. If you read the Forum Rules there is further information there regarding this.

I hope you continue to enjoy the Forum.

Muscle flexing over now :D

[martinw58]

ask for the evaporator to be returned so that it can be tested by the maker to check if it is faulty

[B G Scott]

ask for the evaporator to be returned so that it can be tested by the maker to check if it is faulty
Martinw58
I think this is the best advice on this problem, any court will expect the defendant to have the opportunity of examining the evidence.
Very good point, I am sorry I missed the original basis of the post, I thought it was one of a legal nature rather than a request for an opinion on the technical nature of the fault.

[Peter_1]

Hi all. I am new to this website but thought I would ask the experts their advice.

I am not an engineer but own a shopfitting company that deal with mainly ice cream parlours. We use excellent sub-contractors who generally know their stuff. We supplied a ventilated ice cream display to a customer who did not have any problems for months after delivery.

5 months after delivery, the customer had some problems which were due to not defrosting not cleaning the condenser. We sorted these problems out but he kept on calling us out with nothing wrong with his display 9we checked all temperatures and found the cabinet was working correctly).

Now the customer is trying to take us to court saying the cabinet is not fit for purpose and they got another engineer to change the evaporator as a TEMPORARY repair 8 months after delivery.

Please help me with the following:
1. Can changing the evaporator be considered temporary?

2. They say evaporator was damaged on delivery. If so we believe the gas would have leaked more quickly than 8 months. Is this correct?

3. Could the cabinet have held temperature for many months after delivery if there was a crack in the evaporator?

4. The cabinet is working still to date nearly s year on but the customer says it is not fir for purpose.

Obviously we know many people in the industry that all say the same but I would like to know your genuine thoughts. we try to give good service to the customers but this is obviously difficult with this customer.

Please help. Thanks in advance

I can only speak for Belgium: if someone else is changing or working on something still under warranty, even just attaching his manifold to the unit, then the end user looses all his warranty and he can't claim anything.

[lowcool]

i actually agree with peter,this bloke has actually put his head in the noose.

[Magoo]

as a supplier of other manufacturers equipment you can only offer a manufacturers waranty. If the operator has bypassed that warranty and used another service supplier, warranty null and void he is on his own, no legal recourse on your company or the original manufacturer. The technicalities are a side issue, not relevent to the legal requirements as per warranty policies. Black and white differences

[RSTC]

I'd be careful, the law varies from state to state but many view warranty differently to legal requirement. A warranty is a legal agreement (usually) for a period of time, however statutory rights say the product must be 'fit-for-purpose' and 'of saleable' quality. The judge will know nothing about ice cream or refrigeration and it may be up to you to prove that the equipment is what was ordered and you dealt with a query/complaints as required.

[Gingerair]

All sounds a bit fishy to me..

Who has deemed the new coil a 'temporary fix' ?
Why wasn't it repaired properly at the time ??
Why if it is evidence & pivotal to the dispute did the customer throw the 'faulty' coil away ???
You say your company fit's out alot of ice cream parlours, do you use this type of display regularly & have you had similar problems elsewhere ?
Have you contacted the display manufacturer/importer to discuss the alleged faults ?

How many times have we all seen coils that are chewed up because of defrost problems....

How can it be proved either way if the coil was 'faulty' if he's binned it ??
He should have at least given you the opportunity to put right any defects..

I'm agree with Peter on this one...

[Abe]

The claim, how much is it for? and what is the Claim , ie: breach of which law

I would say , whilst under warranty, you get some one else look at it, touch it, repair it.......Your warranty is void.

How would you know that person was competent, gor the right prognosis, etc

You need to obtain an independent expert report into the equipment

[Abe]

why?
and is it really worth making the poster feel small for having to appolgise to everyone at your say so, i am not trying to push the boat here but i would love to know why moderators feel the need to felx there muscles for something so petty?:confused:


Coohibby

Kindly excuse my thoughts on this thread which have been addressed very adequately by Frank

The Mods know what they doing.

Multiple postings are not allowed. They dilute the point being made. Essentially this is a question about a technical issue. Confine it to that area.

Muddling it up will not assist the cause.

Moderation

We adopt a focussed approached and do not allow a multi posting scatter burst of shots by posters into various areas hoping one will elicit a response.

Mods have a duty to ensure the points raised are clear, on target and focussed. We dont like clutter. Most of all we want to keep this professional and with good etiquette.

Thank you for your support and we hope you will continue to enrich this forum.

I find your posting of your post and the manner you address your point unacceptable as the Mod did not intend or display anything to make him feel "small" something I find you are trying to achieve.

[coffeeandice]

Thanks everyone for your replies!
This is our point exactly. We have supplied many of these cabinets never having had a problem like this in the past. The cabinets all work perfectly but obviously need defrosting regularly.

The cabinet worked perfectly for 4 months, then the customer complained not reaching temperature. We checked and it hadn't been defrosted or cleaned at all. All drainage pipes were clogged with crumbs and nuts which did not allow for the water to drain therefore building up ice. We then sorted this problem out FREE OF CHARGE even though it was not warranty.

He then called us out time and time again with no problems for which in the end we charged him which he wouldnt pay.

8 months after delivery he got another refrigeration company in who said the Evaporator needed changing 'as a temporary repair'. It needed changing because it had a leak made when delivering the cabinet or on manufacture.

HOW IS IT POSSIBLE that a cabinet like this could work well for months if there was a leak on the evaporator?

The manufacturer has checked the pictures and believes it to be because of not defrosting or hacking the ice off!!!

[coolhibby1875]

Coohibby

Kindly excuse my thoughts on this thread which have been addressed very adequately by Frank

The Mods know what they doing.

Multiple postings are not allowed. They dilute the point being made. Essentially this is a question about a technical issue. Confine it to that area.

Muddling it up will not assist the cause.

Moderat
We adopt a focussed approached and do not allow a multi posting scatter burst of shots by posters into various areas hoping one will elicit a response.

Mods have a duty to ensure the points raised are clear, on target and focussed. We dont like clutter. Most of all we want to keep this professional and with good etiquette.

Thank you for your support and we hope you will continue to enrich this forum.

I find your posting of your post and the manner you address your point unacceptable as the Mod did not intend or display anything to make him feel "small" something I find you are trying to achieve.


Lol, and your last paragraph is ment to do what? when someone is told of for doing something it genarly makes them feel put out and causes embarrassment, fact!!

the point was quite clearly explained by your fellow mod, and his points were taken on board, although i dont agree with them, or yours as a matter of fact.
i dont see how this dilutes anything, if you see and read it in 1 section of the forum great, if you see it in another just dont read it, as i stated in my original post i only ever go into a few sections on the forum, and no doubt other members do as well, however i bet that almost every member has an opinion on the point raised by the poster above, so as to get maximum exposure to your question i dont see the harm in listing your question in a few places within the website, if you go to ebay as a seller you list a item (here a question) and list it in as many catagories as possible to get your item (here question) as much exposure as possible, and i can assure you that doesnt dilute ebay, its quite clear that things are run differently here and i accept that, however getting back to the last paragraph of your post i never thought that for 1 minute that the mod intended to make someone feel small, but it probally did as the poster felt the need to aplogise, and i wasnt trying to make someone feel small either, i was in a round about way saying sometimes the mods need to lighten up a bit.

and if anyone is trying to deliberately make someone feel small, try reading your last paragraph again, and ask yourself was there any need? :rolleyes:when one of your fellow mods had answered my point already.

[RONB]

From what you have said this guy is talking a load of crap. These cases have probably no more than a couple of lbs of refrigerant charge. Even if the case was not hot gas defrost I doubt it would have lasted no more than a couple of weeks. Also if the fault was from manufacture I guess the time between manufacture and delivery to you the refrigerant would have leaked from the faulty evaporator by then. So the case would probably not worked from day one. Fight you case all the way.

[Contactor]

He is being robbed by his lawyer.

Personally, I would let them go to court and then counterclaim for my own costs, how much time has this taken out of your life?

I don't know if I would even bother getting help, it's so clear cut you could defend it yourself.

[Contactor]

You could always get the mods to help out, it seems they have lots of time on their hands............

[Peter_1]

They make time....:off topic:

[coffeeandice]

ha ha at least u r all making me smile!!!! Yeah loads of time spent on this with the solicitor! To be honest we have looked at all aspects and we feel we have a really strong case.

Cheers everyone for your help

[Brian_UK]

You could always get the mods to help out, it seems they have lots of time on their hands............
Have we upset you somehow to justify this comment ? :(

[Contactor]

See what i mean?

I call brian, first witness for the defense