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electro
07-07-2001, 06:30 PM
I've been wondering lately, I have quite a new PC with a high spec, but the problem is, the faster the component's and CPU's that go into PC's and motherboards - the more heat they chuck out.

I was thinking, Is it possible to find a working fridge, and disassamble it, and using the parts to make an A/C system for my PC's case, my main questions are:

1) Is it easy to connect all the components and copper tubing?
2) Is it a safe thing to do, IE, fire risks? electrocution?
3) How easy is to 'gas-up' the system? (I need a friend who is a refrigeration engineer...)


I visited the tip a few weeks ago, and there was what looked like a compressor/fan/radiator unit there, painted black, looked nice...
I only wished I got it now! :rolleyes:
What are the chances of finding a working compressor, for free, or very cheap?

Thanks in advance!

-Dave ;)

PS, this was posted in the refigeration section, but I just noticed that there was a A/C section, lol, sorry about that!

Gary
07-07-2001, 07:03 PM
Computer components are designed to run under near room temperature conditions. A small squirrel cage type fan, pumping room air through the computer case would no doubt be sufficient.

If you felt that you needed mechanical cooling, fridge components would be a poor choice. You would be better off with a small A/C unit (window shaker) with it's cool air output pointed towards the computer case, or ducted into it.

Is it easy to connect refrigeration components? No.
Is it safe? No.
Is it easy to "gas up"? No.

Better to leave the A/C unit intact and direct it's output.

WebRam
07-07-2001, 07:38 PM
Correct me if Im wrong ....... (red rag to a bull) :p

I believe that there is a AC unit for the larger PC's. I am sure I've read about this. I will go and have a look.

electro
07-07-2001, 07:49 PM
Thanks for the reply Gary ;)


Computer components are designed to run under near room temperature conditions. A small squirrel cage type fan, pumping room air through the computer case would no doubt be sufficient.

That was the case back then when we were all using 486's... ahh the good 'ole days....

You have'nt seen some of the things people have done to thier PC's cases yet then, LoL

We're talking about people cutting holes in cases for large fans to blast air into the system, and yes, they've already done it, water cooling... there are kit's available that allow you to water cool your CPU and case.

So I thought, why not go to the next step, AC systems for your PC!

A 'window shaker' as you call it, I think you mean a window AC unit, not many of those over here in the UK, very rare.

Is it easy to connect refrigeration components? No. *** Not even using pipe soldering skills ?? we had an engineer fix our fridge once, he replaced the expander and had so solder up the pipes and re-gas the fridge

Is it safe? No. *** How do you make it safe? / what is the dangerous part(s) ?

Is it easy to "gas up"? No. *** an engineer did it to our fridge once, he had a cyninder of the gas, and a large white box that I would suspect to be another compressor to put the gas into the fridge

Oh well, there's gotta be a small way to do this... there's not much difference to repairing a fridge.

Another option, use a peltier to cool water, or some other fluid, and pump that round a radiator in the case.

-Dave

Abe
07-07-2001, 10:26 PM
If you want to refrigerate your pc case, then no problem. Just get the largest case you can, I think they call them Tower cases. Now get in touch with Telecom companies. I was at Telkom Geneva some time back. Telecommunication racks are often cooled with *****. The compressors are tiny and yes, the rack has its own little refrigeration rack built into it to cool the electronics within it.

The technology is available, I do not have information at hand who the manufacturers are, but surf the net and you shall find. And dont even think of it if you want to scrimp on the costs, at most it will be unwieldy and will probably cause you more distress, if you get some bits together and get your mate to put it together. Im talking about moisture here.

Best solution is get a large fan, the type you get in frost free refrigerators, about 6" square, and this will work perfect, on the other hand if you want to make a million by inventing a refigeration system for PC's then by all means dabble. And I say again, it wont be cheap.

Thats my tuppence worth.......

Gary
07-07-2001, 11:14 PM
Let me rephrase my answers, then.

Is it easy to connect refrigeration components? Yes, if you know how. No, if you don't.

Is it safe? Yes, if you know how. No, if you don't.

Is it easy to "gas up" a system? Yes, if you know how. No, if you don't.

Every profession you can think of is easy for those who know what they are doing.

You seem to think repairing a fridge is easy. Try it. Remove all of the components, and then put them all back together.

Then call someone who has sufficient training and experience to make it look easy, and who will charge you accordingly.

Brian_UK
08-07-2001, 11:44 PM
Originally posted by electro
I think you mean a window AC unit, not many of those over here in the UK, very rare.There are quite a few over here actually.


Another option, use a peltier.........
You could use one of these directly mounted on the PC casing.

Really though I would the best option is to trust the PC manufacturer in having constructed and tested his product to work in most suitable conditions.

The worst thing that computers suffer from is rapid changes in temperature; the disk drive changes size and won't read or write. Steady conditions, within design limits, are best. Put AC in the room and enjoy the comfort cooling yourself at the same time.

Gary
09-07-2001, 06:17 AM
All of the PC components I am aware of are designed for near room temperature, and can therefore be cooled with room air. Problems arise as people add on more components and/or more powerful components. The heat load inside the case is greatly increased without increasing the exhaust air.

PC's are equipped with propellor fans. The logical next step would be a squirrel cage fan. Something along the lines of the flue vent fan found in high efficiency furnaces.

The problem with a propellor fan is that it has poor throw characteristics. It cannot push against a positive pressure, nor pull against a negative pressure. A squirrel cage fan can do both. Squirrel cage fans made duct systems possible.

WebRam
09-07-2001, 08:10 AM
I think the clue here is to look at his bio.

One of his joys is "overclocking" this is the act of speeding up the cpu over and above the manufacturers specifications :D

This in turn produces a lot more heat, so much so that, if one is not careful, one can burn out the cpu ...... quite costly.

abcdefg1675
14-07-2002, 03:01 AM
ive been thinking about refrigerating my pc too. large supercomputers are also airconditioned. watercooling (for me) its too messy and i cant afford the piping, radiators and waterblocks.

though, i can get many small cooling units from refriderators (the compressor and the radiator thats udner the freezer) for free.

i used to have a 1/8hp compressor that was 4"wide, and 6 inches long (it was shaped like a sphere). it wouldnt be too hard at all if you have the right tools and if you know what you are doing. i looked up the MSDS for 3 different refrigerents (*****, R22 and puron) and their all rated level 1. they dont ignite, they dont burn, explode or harm you in anyway. they only warning was frostbite.

in order to do this, you would need large amounts of styrofoam for insulation. just place the radiator outside the case, and the condensor at the top of the case, and have cold air blow downwards.

abcdefg1675
14-07-2002, 03:17 AM
Originally posted by Brian_UK
....
Really though I would the best option is to trust the PC manufacturer in having constructed and tested his product to work in most suitable conditions.

The worst thing that computers suffer from is rapid changes in temperature; the disk drive changes size and won't read or write. Steady conditions, within design limits, are best. Put AC in the room and enjoy the comfort cooling yourself at the same time.

trust the pc manufaturer? they didnt build their cooling system in the pc for extreme overclocking.

(but i do see what could happen when the pc is cooled too much)


Have you visited www.tomshardware.com ? theirs a P IIII thats been overclocked to 3ghz. that would need an extreme bulky cooling system, like a freezer if watercooling isnt an option.

also at tomshardware.com, (if you look hard enough) their is a website where someone put the motherboard of a 486sx inside a small freezer and set it to max, then overclocked the 486 to ... was it 400mhz?..... anyway, some people with shallow wallets (like me) and a spare freezer should (could) use an A/C system to cool a pc. but, a negitive side of using an A/C unit is the cost. my OLD 8500BTU used 1330W@120v, but 8500 btus is too high for a pc anyway...

im going to take my PIII computer from 450 to 1200mhz (if it lets me). i have some bios where you enter in the speed, or you can set jumpers for a 12x mult and your bus speeds...


"we" could always set the cooling unit to 55-60*F. all of my pc parts are rated for 50-120*F anyway.could could

Gary
14-07-2002, 06:16 PM
The original post didn't mention overclocking. That is an entirely different proposition from cooling the case. The trick is to design an evaporator to transfer heat from the heat producing component(s) to a refrigeration system.

Gary
14-07-2002, 06:30 PM
Here's a question for the overclockers:

Why not build an extension cord for the CPU, bring it outside the case and stick it in a freezer?

abcdefg1675
14-07-2002, 06:39 PM
hmm.... well, i need an airconditioning system for overclocking. i plan to build one for a friends tandy that he overclocks into the ghz range. it ends up melting like ice-cream.


if electro isnt doing something that heats up like my friends tandy, then electro should get a small squirrel cage fan, a dremmel cutter, some duct tape, and some small ducting.

12v squirrel cage fans for computers can be found on ebay for
~8$. cheaper than a refridgeration system. and ducting? dig around in some dumpsters near a HVAC dealer (its legal only when the dumster has been set on the curb. its considered public domain when it is, when it isnt.... its not free stuff)

and to cool the case below room temperature, why not run to ebay and buy some peltier coolers. theirs 4 thats stuck on a large heatsink that ends in a few days thats at 12$ (still cheaper than a refridgerator, and much quieter)

frank
15-07-2002, 06:11 PM
This link: http://www.novelconceptsinc.com/contents.htm was very interesting

Hubris
21-07-2002, 05:55 PM
Hi Gary,

I'm not an electronics wizard....but the placement of the cpu is extraordinarily important on the circuit board....it isn't possible to change any of the lengths or else the timings between the cpu and the memory, the chipset, etc are thrown off.

There is a manufacturer who has done the opposite of what you suggest - Kryotech builds a computer case in which the bottom is a compressor/condensor, and a airtight chamber is clamped onto the systemboard around the cpu....and only the cpu is kept at around -50C....as the cpu will continue to improve in performance until it reaches a plateau at around -80C.

There is another company who makes the Vapochill that I have mentioned before....that uses an evaporator directly in contact with the cpu to chill it. The restrictions there are a relatively small contact area, and the challenge of safely engaging the evaporator onto the cpu....perfectly level...and without grinding or crushing it.

Folks....by FAR the easiest method to use phase-change for heavy overclocking is by using a water/glycol mix...running watercooling over your cpu/chipset/gpu and using the actual cooling unit to chill the water - external from the computer. Your only challenge then is to insulate the lines.

abcdefg1675
22-07-2002, 03:43 AM
How much is the performance improved by cooling down to -50*C?

Hubris
22-07-2002, 04:00 AM
That kind of cooling basically removes the cpu as the bottleneck in your system. If you have chosen components that can handle being run at higher than spec, you might be able to get a 50% overclock with extreme cooling.

It really isn't financially viable - it's cheaper to build a dual-cpu system, or get a second computer than to supercool a single one. Like any hobby, there are those of us who want to see how far they can go....for the challenge and bragging rights.

Me, I want to have an Athlon cpu running in excess of 2 ghz, with my current equipment (not waiting for a 2ghz cpu to be released).

Gary
22-07-2002, 09:04 PM
Okay, here's the next question: Can a Pelt (hot junction) be extended outside the case?

I assume Kryotech is using a two stage system to achieve -50C. To get to -80C would probably take a cascade system. Feasible, but very expensive. Using a Pelt for the low stage might make more sense.

Hubris
23-07-2002, 12:21 AM
A peltier, (TEC) can be extended anywhere you can provide enough current....I would assume.

I'm building my phase-change rig (the direct evaporator-contact type) such that I can utilize a 156W peltier cooling the cpu and the evaporator cooling the hot side - IF I decide that the evaporator isn't able to cool adequately by itself.

Hubris
23-07-2002, 12:26 AM
BTW - I do have 2 1/10 hp compressors available....I'm currently building a system that only uses one, that has a lower evaporator temp (-25C to -5C). How much benefit would be achieved by redesigning the system to be dual phase?

aenigma
30-07-2002, 09:46 AM
Yes dual staged system will get you much lower temps.
My current system that will be chilling my computer is a dual staged cascade system.
Although the cascade system does have a leak.Probably one of the flare fittings.But I am going to scrap that and go with a dual staged cascade cooler.
So that is 4 compressers altogether heh.

2 of em are 1/2hp and 3/4hp.The cascade compressors are 1/8hp and the other one I am not real sure of.Got it at a junkyard and no ratings on it anywhere.I am hoping it is bigger than the 1/8hp compressor.
It currently gets below -60F
I need a better thermometer though.

Also I dont think Kryotech gets -50C ;)

Oh yeah I am not sure if having the same hp compressors as a dual staged system would work as good as having say, a 1/4 and 1/8hp.
You could also make a cascade system out of it.I know a killer way to cool the condenser of the first system :)

Gary
30-07-2002, 03:23 PM
What refrigerant(s) are you using for your cascade?

aenigma
30-07-2002, 08:10 PM
R290(propane)
I think if I mix it with R134a I will get a much better temp.

Hubris
30-07-2002, 08:50 PM
I assume you're talking a 2-stage chiller, and actually running a water/glycol mixture to cool the cpu?

I'm paying close attention here.....next time I build one of these, I could well try a dual-phase or cascade system. Any tips or tweaks?

aenigma
30-07-2002, 11:22 PM
Yes a Dual phase/dual stage.Means the same thing,dual compressors.But it is also cascade,I am going to remake it today so the cascade chiller will also be dual stage :)

Gonna be big heh

Gary
31-07-2002, 12:55 AM
Actually, a two stage system has two stages in a single compressor. A cascade system is two (or more) systems in series. The high stage system cools the low stage system which cools the medium.

I don't have a P/T chart for propane handy. What low stage pressures do you typically run at -60F? Why do you think mixing it with R134A will help?

Dan
31-07-2002, 01:18 AM
Sounds to me like a classic autocascade system... 134a and Propane. But that would be with one compressor and an additional heat exchanger.

aenigma
31-07-2002, 01:35 AM
I mean dual stage as in each compressor as a stage.
I guess I will call it dual phase ;)
The reason adding R134a should help,is because Propane is lighter than R12.So R134a should make it a bit more heavy.I think,I dont have charts for it,but I remember that someone used propane and it didnt even cool with propane until he added R134a....

Now my system has 2 compressors for the main waterchiller.
Then a seperate system cooling the condenser.

The system cooling the condensor is also going to be dual staged.

I dont know if I am going to add R134a or not....
R22 works alot better than R290,but I ran out.But since the r290 is going well below -60F I guess it is working ok....

Low side psi is around 16-20 inches and high side with new smaller cap is about 75psi I think.With the old bigger capillary I got about 5-10psi high side....
Those are probably a little off..
My cascade cooler has a leak so it isnt stable.

Something is stumping me right now,what are the pipes coming out of the compressor?Steel or something?
Silflo will not stick to it,and brass melts at too high of a temp and burns a hole in my copper. :)

Robearbam
02-08-2002, 06:10 PM
:D Wow! Just what is it we are trying to cool down? An A/C system in a computer case? I thought the multi hole cut case with several 4" fans was a little overkill. A great site for PC cooling and over clocking is "maximumpc.com". I do believe they have a design for a heat pipe that cools the proc no matter what the freq is. Additional case cooling is supplied with fans which should be more then whats needed for today's super chips. I would personally keep any running motors far from the PC except the 12VDC fans. Were haven't reached micro wave freqs on the proc yet...I think then we will have to do something about further cooling down the PC.

Hubris
02-08-2002, 06:22 PM
Again, merely putting AC into the case - having ambiant temps of close to freezing isn't terribly practical. Having to try insulate the entire case to prevent condensation isn't something I'd like to try.

Using AC to cool the cpu either by direct contact with the evaporator, or by using an external chiller to cool a liquid that is then used to cool the cpu (chipset, vga, etc) is more practical - as much as using refrigeration to supercool for the purposes of overclocking, where normal high performance HSF are currently use - can be considered practical.

Gary
02-08-2002, 06:32 PM
Seems like there ought to be a better way. I wonder if the entire motherboard could be attached to an extension cable, dipped in plastic to seal it, then stuck in a freezer.

Hubris
02-08-2002, 06:46 PM
There are those who have played with entire motherboard immersion in a non-conductive fluid....cooled by an AC unit. You have to make sure the drives, power supply, etc aren't in contact with liquid or the cold.

Somewhat harder to use this long-term...having fluid that is open to the air...could potentially involve bacterial growth.....etc. It's easy to build an enclosure to house the AC that can sit beside a computer, compared to building an enclosure to house an immersed motherboard.

Gary
02-08-2002, 06:58 PM
I'm thinking that if the motherboard were separated from all other components (joined by extension cable) and tightly sealed, it wouldn't need to be immersed. It could simply be placed in a conventional freezer.

Hubris
02-08-2002, 07:08 PM
I agree....this is possible. Basically I believe the limits would be the cables to the hard drives.....the official spec is they can't be longer than 18", although many people use cables up to 36". Extensions can be purchased for the ATX power, which would allow the drives themselves to stay outside the motherboard chamber.

I assume you would intend us to continue to use a heatsink and fan inside the freezer? Unless the freezer temp is quite low, I don't think it'll be able to pull enough heat from the tiny point that is the cpu.

I'm sure a tiny, high-power freezer could be built (by you expert types :) but are they available commercially? Motherboard size is roughly 13" x 20", and would need to be about 6" tall.

Gary
02-08-2002, 07:29 PM
Cooling can be concentrated at the tiny cpu with a fan, and that tiny target can be expanded via heat sink, heat pipe, or Pelt.

Small freezers are readily available commercially, and can be modified for the needed capacity and/or temperature range.

The big advantage to this approach is to be able to overclock without having to become a refrigeration expert.

Hubris
02-08-2002, 07:49 PM
By modified...you mean taking a freezer to an HVAC shop or tech who would adjust the compressor/condensor/refrigerant to reach the desired amount of cooling?

I know it's asking the impossible....but along with good cooling, I was hoping to do this without spending too terribly much money. I know when I started off pricing out compressors and condensors, they rapidly escalated out of my price range. That's why I started with a used setup that I was able to find locally. I'm willing to do some learning to assist on the project....but ultimately I realize I'm not going to become an expert, just for a single project like this.

That's why we keep pestering you fine folks with our questions. As I've often said before, your assistance is greatly appreciated.

Gary
02-08-2002, 08:08 PM
Generally a small freezer should be able to handle the heat load, but if you want it to go much below -20F or so, modifications will be needed. The lower the temp, the more expensive the modifications.

I don't see it as pestering at all. It's interesting stuff. :)

Hubris
02-08-2002, 08:22 PM
Generally speaking a powerful processor is going to be making something like 100W of heat, the various other components on the motherboard perhaps another 30W, the video card making perhaps 40W of heat......what exactly would it take to keep a chamber of dimensions like I listed....below freezing? While there are some who really desire extremely low temps, there are decreasing gains in performance as temps decrease. Most decent heatsinks can keep a cpu within 10-15C of ambiant temps....if it's all stored in a freezer at -10C, that should yield pretty good results.

Can I buy that in a pre-made solution...and for a reasonable price?

Gary
02-08-2002, 08:47 PM
I would guess that you probably have such a wonderous machine sitting in your kitchen. Just stick the motherboard alongside the frozen dinners. :)

Hubris
02-08-2002, 09:39 PM
:)

Ok, yes a chest deepfreeze certainly has the capacity to get rid of 200W of heat and keep it cold.....how about something that can fit inside your average computer room? A small 6 or 8 cubic foot freezer might fit into some rooms...but it wouldn't be as powerful as a large unit...

Convenience is starting to outweigh practicality here :)

Gary
02-08-2002, 10:03 PM
I'm not used to thinking in terms of watts, but I'm thinking that translates to about 700 btu's, which isn't much in the general scheme of things. Maybe someone who works with residential freezers can jump in here and help us out. :)

Hubris
02-08-2002, 10:30 PM
Yes....my handy online calculator shows it as ~680 btu's.


I did a little experiment a couple weeks back...put a motherboard with processor and video into a tiny beer fridge....and it couldn't keep up - temps kept rising until it was 40C inside.

We obviously need a freezer with enough capacity to handle the load.

Gary
02-08-2002, 10:50 PM
More specifically, a freezer with enough excess capacity to handle the load. A freezer that is designed to freeze warm products, as opposed to one that is designed to just keep things frozen. Possibly a small commercial freezer?

aenigma
02-08-2002, 11:40 PM
Well you know another problem is lack of surface area on the evaperator.
I used a chest freezer to chill an antifreeze/water mix to cool my computer long time ago.
It doesnt work at all because the evap is just rows of pipe behind the sheet metal.
Now for waterchilling all as you have to do is design a simple heat exchanger.
Like pieces of copper pipe zip tied to the evap pipes will work fine.
But as far as just putting your computer inside the freezer,you would have to get a bit more creative i guess.
Or run the chilled water from the heat exchanger through a rad,so that rad can cool the chest freezer and act as the evap.

herefishy
03-08-2002, 01:43 AM
Okay Fellers,

At this moment I have design/spec'd a refrigeration system for a chiller for a Unisys semiconductor burn-in chamber rated at 45kW, which translates into approximately 150,000 btuh. the application calls for the dissipation of the above reference heat generation utilizing a 25gpm water flow with a minimum 40degF, maximum 54 degF entering water temperature.

Now, do I understand that the load is determined to be 200W?

(If) in one post, someone could give parameters for the cooling function....

What is the load?......... watts.../...btuh.....etc., I don't care

What is the maximum or minimum temperature requirements?......

I'll bet nothing that I'll come up with an answer, possibly utilizing a fluid medium in the heat exhanger (evaporator), and the required flow rate, and resulting in a heat exchanger (evaporator) design......

This thread is soooo long, let's do a recap and get back to basics.....

:)

Gary
03-08-2002, 02:00 AM
We're kicking around ideas on how to cool a cpu on the cheap. My idea is to separate the motherboard from the rest (attached by an extension cable), dip it in plastic to seal it, attach a heat sink or maybe a pelt to the cpu, and mount a fan to blow cold air on it. Then stick it all in a conventional freezer.

The board puts out about 200 watts (more if there's a pelt). Hubris wants it kept at no higher than -10C.

I'm thinking aenigma wants about -80C.

aenigma
03-08-2002, 08:05 AM
Originally posted by Gary
We're kicking around ideas on how to cool a cpu on the cheap. My idea is to separate the motherboard from the rest (attached by an extension cable), dip it in plastic to seal it, attach a heat sink or maybe a pelt to the cpu, and mount a fan to blow cold air on it. Then stick it all in a conventional freezer.

The board puts out about 200 watts (more if there's a pelt). Hubris wants it kept at no higher than -10C.

I'm thinking aenigma wants about -80C.

hahaha yep -80C would be nice ;)
btw check this big old compressor out :)

http://www.subz3ro.net/stuff.JPG

I already got my waterblock on and insulated it and the motherboard.Just need to fix my phase change system.

btw here is an old picture of my phase change system.

http://www.subz3ro.net/phasechange1.JPG

Since then I have taken the box and the cascade chiller off. (cant see it in picture).
Also cut the lines and repositioned the coaxial condenser so it is horizontal.
Now I just need to put it back together,and build another system to cool the condenser.I am planning on doing this tomorrow.

BTW what is the best solder to use on those steel condenser lines?I dont like using brass,melts at too high of a temp.

Dan
03-08-2002, 02:09 PM
Interesting pictures, Aenigma. 45% silver with paste flux is what I would use. Some would use Stay-brite, but I much prefer 45% silver.

abcdefg1675
03-08-2002, 07:31 PM
Originally posted by Gary
Seems like there ought to be a better way. I wonder if the entire motherboard could be attached to an extension cable, dipped in plastic to seal it, then stuck in a freezer.


why not get a big styrofoam box, fill it up with vasoline and put a video extension cable for your monitor, an extension cable for your keyboard and mouse, and an extension cable for whatever. then put the evaporator of the ac unit in the vasoline and take the fans out of your pc. (i dont think vasoline conducts electricity, does it? i use it for thermal paste)

or instead of vasoline, use sillicone oil or something insulating.

aenigma
04-08-2002, 08:02 AM
Originally posted by Dan
Interesting pictures, Aenigma. 45% silver with paste flux is what I would use. Some would use Stay-brite, but I much prefer 45% silver.
Ah thanks :)

I dont need to solder any steel lines for my cascade chiller anymore.
I picked up an 8K a/c unit and used that compressor for the cascade chiller.

So I am getting close....
Got the beast off the table and on the floor too,so now I can get the box screwed on and everything.

Hubris
04-08-2002, 04:55 PM
Aenigma - sounds like you are a lot closer to the knowledge level of the AC guys than am I. I soldered up my evaporator the other day....but was somewhat balked by the tips of the compressor...heating them I can't get them off so I don't think it's solder, but they are considerably larger than the 1/4" tubing...which actually appears to go inside the silver tip on the end of the evaporator.

I guess I'm going to have to try truck this whole rig down to an AC shop, and see if anyone is willing to touch it.

One more question....there originally was a thermostat on this system, as the compressor and condensor are from a wine cellar cooling unit. Since I need the system to run 100% duty cycle, I have removed that thermostat. Will the compressor continue to run, as long as power is applied to it - or is it somehow going to continue to expect regulation?

aenigma
05-08-2002, 03:20 AM
Yep it will run fine without the thermostat.

I am not quite clear on what you are trying to unsolder?Are you using an oxy/acetylene torch?

Hubris
05-08-2002, 04:18 AM
Nothing that fancy...just using a propane burner...it's plenty to melt silver solder...but I didn't want to apply heat to the tip of the compressor for too long. It does sand off very shiny silver...but it isn't silver. I suppose it could be another bonding material..

aenigma
05-08-2002, 06:25 AM
Probably copper/silver.
I use silflo copper brazing rods.
They melt at about 1400f thats why your not getting thos off with a propane torch :)
Also if it is copper soldered to steel,which i am sure it is.
Then it is probably some other kind of solder that melts at really high temps.

Hubris
05-08-2002, 06:29 PM
Obviously if it took higher heat to get it on there.....the compressor won't be damaged by the higher heat required to remove it? Other than welders, I don't know anybody with a better torch.....which is why I probably have to involve an AC shop fairly soon. I also don't have a vacuum pump to charge the system...

Gary
05-08-2002, 06:53 PM
Copper to steel requires silver solder. Propane probably won't do the job. A TurboTorch using MAPP gas might do it for these small systems, or an Oxy/Acetylene set will be needed.

aenigma
11-08-2002, 02:06 AM
So you having any luck with that compressor Hubris?

Hubris
11-08-2002, 05:42 AM
Unfortunately I haven't had time to take it to a shop. I don't have the equipment or expertise to solder the pipes, evacuate the system, and charge with refrigerant.

The local AC shops seem to be pretty much only open during business hours....which is a little hard to accomodate, since my dayjob is keeping me more than busy at present.

Sigh...it's still exactly as it was, when last I posted. Evaporator is soldered together.....but the wet line and suction lines need to be soldered.....plus I still have no idea how much capillary tubing I'll need to use for this setup.

I need an expert...and I haven't yet found one locally who is willing to help - even for money.

aenigma
11-08-2002, 08:34 AM
Well it isnt hard at all to do.As long as you have guages and a vaccum pump your set.Oh and a torch that gets hot would be nice.

Go ahead and icq me at 23619435....

AndrOvr
11-08-2002, 05:01 PM
here's my cooling unid for my PC (CPU)

http://213.63.186.163/attachment.php?s=&postid=36181

http://213.63.186.163/attachment.php?s=&postid=36182

http://213.63.186.163/attachment.php?s=&postid=36183

http://213.63.186.163/attachment.php?s=&postid=36184

WEb cam sucks :(

AndrOvr
11-08-2002, 05:03 PM
http://213.63.186.163/attachment.php?s=&postid=36244

http://213.63.186.163/attachment.php?s=&postid=36245

AndrOvr
11-08-2002, 05:10 PM
this unid is a r409a and it gets to -50c / -51c ... if I let it runing idle for about 45mim...
It get -40c in 5mim, -45cin 10mim... and -49cin 30mim :P

BUT...
W any load at all... it wont cool!
Like... If I put the evapo. in 1/2L of 30c water... the evavpo gets 29c...at it only start to drop to 28c in 3 mim or soo... :confused:

It needs more refrigeranT?

AndrOvr
11-08-2002, 05:20 PM
Could be this tube... that is too small...?
Cos it have the capilar tube in it.. and can be a botneck ?

AndrOvr
11-08-2002, 05:21 PM
... what do u guys think...?

Gary
11-08-2002, 08:57 PM
For a proper evaluation, the evaporator needs to be attached to the CPU under normal load. Then after it runs for awhile, we need the following information:

Type of refrigerant

Low side pressure
Suction line temperature near the evaporator
Suction line temperature near the compressor

High side pressure
Condenser air in temperature
Condenser air out temperature
Liquid line temperature near the condenser
Liquid line temperature near the cap tube

AndrOvr
11-08-2002, 09:04 PM
DAMN!
Hmm... Was a A/C guy that put the R409a in it... I dont know how to mesure the presure :(

Hubris
11-08-2002, 09:17 PM
Depending on how your friend built your system, he may or may not have installed access points where pressure can be read, using the proper type of guage. It shouldn't be too tough to get temperature readings for the various locations though.

AndrOvr
11-08-2002, 09:27 PM
I can give some temps tho...

Type of refrigerant --> R409a
Low side pressure --> ??

Suction line temperature near the evaporator --> w load ( a 1/4 L of 35.c water ) it gets about 24 in 3mim The water is now 27c

Suction line temperature near the compressor --> 30 mm (3cm) from the compressor 21.6c 60mm (6cm) from the compressor.. 18.3c

High side pressure
Condenser air in temperature -->21.5c
Condenser air out temperature -->22.2c
Liquid line temperature near the condenser--> line that goes to cond. at 2 cm from it.... 33.6c
Liquid line temperature near the cap tube --> 1 cm from the deshumifider (i think is deshumifuder) 24.2c

That's it... any more to mesurE?

Gary
11-08-2002, 10:22 PM
The water is not the proper load. Let's try getting the same measurements with no load. Wait until it gets as cold as possible before taking the measurements.

abcdefg1675
12-08-2002, 12:57 AM
water could be a good load, if your accurate. it takes 1 caloire to heat/cool 1 liter of water 1 degree. you will need to convert BTU's to calories.

hvac01453
12-08-2002, 01:50 AM
As Gary said, most computera are rated for room temperatures, why in the hell do you want to cool the computer? Cool the space, and then you eliminate the expence and possibility of condensation or moisture getting on the board. Then use an internal power fan.
Years ago My brother was doing computer rooms and they sent chilled water thru the internals of the units. The computers alone, took up about 2000 square feet of space. They were cogeneration with 4 back up ups's. All that equipment is gone now, along with 80% of the computer equipment and the cooling requirements. All PC's now....and PKG RTU's.
Things have changed..alot of money lost on computer rooms since the internet and the WWW came into the equation.

Hubris
12-08-2002, 02:05 AM
The amount of resources required, plus the facilities available to us - are what prevent us from cooling our entire rooms to temps where processors can be kept at or below freezing temps.

Cooling water that is used to cool the cpu.....is fairly efficient. Having the evaporator directly contact the CPU...is fairly efficient. Even Gary's idea of mounting the guts of a computer inside a tiny commercial freezer - is fairly efficient. Cooling an entire room such that a standard heatsink, or other conventional means can keep the CPU in the intended range - is not practical. Remember, this is being done in a residence....it is not generating money - there is no value in having a room too cold to sit in, and costing $20/day in power to chill.

aenigma
12-08-2002, 02:19 AM
Originally posted by hvac01453
As Gary said, most computera are rated for room temperatures, why in the hell do you want to cool the computer? Cool the space, and then you eliminate the expence and possibility of condensation or moisture getting on the board. Then use an internal power fan.
Years ago My brother was doing computer rooms and they sent chilled water thru the internals of the units. The computers alone, took up about 2000 square feet of space. They were cogeneration with 4 back up ups's. All that equipment is gone now, along with 80% of the computer equipment and the cooling requirements. All PC's now....and PKG RTU's.
Things have changed..alot of money lost on computer rooms since the internet and the WWW came into the equation.

Ever heard of overclocking?Guess not.
Computers arent rated for certain temperatures,the colder they are,the faster they run(to a certain point).

AndrOvr
12-08-2002, 08:30 PM
DAMn... I dont know why... but this is taking way to long to get to -40c! :confused:
It usto to be like 5 mim to get ot -40c now it is runing for 20 mim and is at -24c :confused: but still lowering..
WTF is rong w this unid?!

AndrOvr
12-08-2002, 09:40 PM
Most of the times when I turn on the compressor runs cold... only after 30 mim it get hot.. and the line that goes to the condensator... normaly goes hot in the 1 5mim... then.. it gets normal.. and after some time it gets REAL hot!
Is this all normal??


Is it normal... after shutting down the Compressor... it gets REAL HOT.... Like 60c or soo...


All this w out load.

Gary
12-08-2002, 09:51 PM
We can't see it from here. All we can see is the description and the temperature measurements. Saying "hot" requires us to guess what you mean.

AndrOvr
12-08-2002, 09:54 PM
Well.. when I say REAL HOT.. its like 55c or soo....
When I say HOT its more like 35c/50c +
Normal is around the ambient temp. NOw is 25c

Gary
12-08-2002, 10:05 PM
My computer isn't doing what I think it should do. The top of the monitor is sorta warm. The screen has fingerprints on it. It doesn't make any noise when I shut it off. And my scanner isn't hooked up. WTF is wrong with my computer.

I gave you a list of temperature measurements earlier. These are the measurements that tell us what the system is doing.

AndrOvr
12-08-2002, 10:36 PM
DAMN [CEnSUrED] Fu*Ing POS!
This [Censured] dont go lower than -29c now!! AGHRRRR|!
Well... the temps in the condensator are THE SAME w or W OUT LOAD! about 33c in the line that goes to the condensator and 24c that comes out...
The evapo w the load (120w TEC.. I put it when the evapo gets to -29c) gets from -29c to 56c in less than 3 mim|! and takes about 4.30mim to get from 56c to 0c w the Tec off...


The return line gets about 17c near the compressor....
and about 53c near the evapo. :( <--- w LOAD

SOMEBODY HELP ME!!

Hubris
13-08-2002, 12:46 AM
Are you saying that the evaporator is 53C under load, or that the return line coming out of the evaporator is 53C under load? If the temps are 53C coming out of the evaporator, and then drop to 17C before they reach the compressor....there is definately a problem.

I'm sure the experts would correct me....but if the 120W load is that drastically overheating the evaporator - but that the phase change is still dropping refrigerant temps as it moves back towards the compressor....

Either the phase change is happening too late....or there isn't enough refrigerant in the system to deal with the load of 120W.

(here's my first diagnosis....based on very little knowledge. Help me learn folks....was I even close?)

Gary
13-08-2002, 05:40 AM
Sorry, but that's not a diagnosis. That's a wild guess based upon a questionable interpretation of an incoherent statement. Aside from that, it wasn't too bad for a first effort. :)

abcdefg1675
13-08-2002, 05:42 PM
a BTU can cool 450mL (aboutone pound of water)
of water by 1 degree in one minute. My 8500 BTU airconditioner can cool 102 gallons of water by 10 degrees (celcius) in one minute.

thats one way you could check and see if your AC unit is working somewhat to its full potential.

abcdefg1675
13-08-2002, 05:47 PM
Originally posted by Robearbam
:D Wow! Just what is it we are trying to cool down? An A/C system in a computer case? I thought the multi hole cut case with several 4" fans was a little overkill. A great site for PC cooling and over clocking is "maximumpc.com". I do believe they have a design for a heat pipe that cools the proc no matter what the freq is. Additional case cooling is supplied with fans which should be more then whats needed for today's super chips. I would personally keep any running motors far from the PC except the 12VDC fans. Were haven't reached micro wave freqs on the proc yet...I think then we will have to do something about further cooling down the PC.


ive heard and seen of a Macintosh plus that ran at 2ghz and used liquid nitrogen to cool it and the floppy drive.


and you thought multi hole cut cases were overkill? my gateway 2000 P-166mmx has some high CFM 6" brushless 120v fans getting air to circulate over the flaming hot videocard, roasting ethernet adaptor, and my toasty SB16/AWE32 soundcard. i also have a 55w peltier cooler on my PCI chipset.

AndrOvr
13-08-2002, 09:32 PM
once again I ask...
Could be this tube a bit of the suction tube (5mm) that have inside the capilar tube (3mm) that is causing all this bad performance...!?

http://www.refrigeration-engineer.com/chat/attachment.php?s=&postid=5515

AndrOvr
13-08-2002, 10:31 PM
This is w out load... after 2h runing :P
W the evapo at -40c


Type of refrigerant --> R409a
Low side pressure --> ??

Suction line temperature near the evaporator --> -21c 1CM (10mm) from the Evaporator.
Suction line temperature near the compressor --> 20 mm (2cm) from the compressor 29.6c 60mm (6cm) from the compressor.. 19.6c

High side pressure ??
Condenser air in temperature -->25.3c
Condenser air out temperature -->25.3c
Liquid line temperature near the condenser--> line that goes to cond. at 2 cm from it.... 40.1c
Line that comes out of the condensator--> 24.2c
Liquid line temperature near the cap tube --> 1 cm from the deshumifider (i think is deshumifuder) 27.2c


This time was mesure twice ;)

Prof Sporlan
13-08-2002, 10:44 PM
a BTU can cool 450mL (aboutone pound of water) of water by 1 degree in one minute.

Your mixing energy units (Btu's) and power units (Btu/min). :) A Btu will cool one pound of water one degree Fahrenheit. A Btu/min will cool one pound of water one degree Fahrenheit in one minute...


My 8500 BTU airconditioner can cool 102 gallons of water by 10 degrees (celcius) in one minute.

Mmmm... an overachieving a/c unit :) 102 gal * 8.33 lb/gal * 10C * 1.8F/C = 15,294 Btu. If cooled in one minute: 15,294 Btu/min = 76.5 tons...

AndrOvr
13-08-2002, 10:54 PM
Heres the evapo.

http://groups.msn.com/_Secure/0OQB0cCUUf0D1jRU2hTBs94Qa0fZk8KInzuZMoxcdBF9pQmHhQOw8wFNR0KC24HA03YeeFZZg5TuatxtOWJ7oylhB2D7F8WfF/evapo-view-edited.jpg

Compressor and Conde. (http://groups.msn.com/_Secure/0RAD**1oYlEP7oD9aZmfbR6dYpW8W0pMSW1cr4kNlB6jfeHdEwWvpSGzMSYCLt7pGDk*JzbS6cEAeDuzlhD7aJPRKub4CHctm73O dJ1zB9kQ/compressor-and-condensator.jpg )

Heres the point of the suction tube is 5mm and it have the capilar in it (3mm) (http://groups.msn.com/_Secure/0MQAAAAkQW3hxXMgD2PEtYjG2Vm5XWOJQdY7HKfiCPaifPwsv2SATjNw0PxTskR1hUvPip*82swn6L1*cPPgr0Q/Imagem-42.JPG)

Gary
14-08-2002, 12:53 AM
This system doesn't have nearly enough R409A in it. It is almost empty.

AndrOvr
14-08-2002, 07:14 PM
OK... Now I have to refill it :)
It must have some leak in the evapo :(

frank
14-08-2002, 08:37 PM
How can you have a 16deg C differential across the discharge entering the condenser and the liquid leaving the condenser with no increase in air temperature entering and leaving?

Where is the heat energy going?

AndrOvr
14-08-2002, 08:40 PM
I asked that question myself :confused:
BUT... I think that's because is a BIG radiator.. (+/-) :P and it have a BIG FAN in it!

The radiator is 29X25cm...

Gary
14-08-2002, 09:35 PM
Where is the heat energy going?

There isn't enough heat energy to measure the difference in delta-T.

aenigma
14-08-2002, 11:16 PM
Originally posted by AndrOvr
OK... Now I have to refill it :)
It must have some leak in the evapo :(
Oh sure you dont listen to me when I tell you its undercharged ;)
you need to charge it with a load on the evap,like a pelt would be good.

aenigma
14-08-2002, 11:21 PM
Originally posted by frank
How can you have a 16deg C differential across the discharge entering the condenser and the liquid leaving the condenser with no increase in air temperature entering and leaving?

Where is the heat energy going?

Because it is undercharged.Not enough pressure to get warm,just the discharge will be warm.

AndrOvr
14-08-2002, 11:22 PM
We been chating and I already said that I needed... long before gary mention it... I was looking for confirmation... :)

aenigma
17-08-2002, 12:25 AM
Well I got my system going finally.
Problem after problem heh

First was this:
http://www.subz3ro.net/frost.jpg
From it being banged around from being moved up 2 stories a cap wire came loose and i didnt notice...so the compressor wasnt working and was acting as an evap :)

So then after getting it going I left it running overnight full load using SETI.TBird 1.4@1731 as of now
But I dont know cpu temps because the socket temp probe doesnt work too great in these conditions :)
http://www.subz3ro.net/submersion.jpg

So anyways the pump quit while I was sleeping so I woke up to a Halt screen,but I guess the mineral oil saved the cpu.Im not using methanol anymore.Too toxic and sucks when your trying to prime your pump and you get a mouth full of it. :eek:

so anyways the mineral oil gets really warm so I need to make a heat exchanger for it,thinking of just phase change cooling it.
Gotta insulate the res and some other things also.
got some work to do....

Hubris
17-08-2002, 01:28 AM
You're crazy man....

One phase-change system to cool the evaporator of another system that actually cools the cpu. Then another phase-change system to cool the oil sitting around your motherboard....

Sigh...all I want to get going is a single system to cool my cpu in a normal case...

aenigma
17-08-2002, 09:38 AM
Originally posted by Hubris
You're crazy man....

One phase-change system to cool the evaporator of another system that actually cools the cpu. Then another phase-change system to cool the oil sitting around your motherboard....

Sigh...all I want to get going is a single system to cool my cpu in a normal case...
Naw nothing is cooling the oil :)
I need to make a heat exchanger though....

abcdefg1675
22-10-2002, 12:22 AM
Originally posted by Hubris
Generally speaking a powerful processor is going to be making something like 100W of heat, the various other components on the motherboard perhaps another 30W, the video card making perhaps 40W of heat......what exactly would it take to keep a chamber of dimensions like I listed....below freezing? While there are some who really desire extremely low temps, there are decreasing gains in performance as temps decrease. Most decent heatsinks can keep a cpu within 10-15C of ambiant temps....if it's all stored in a freezer at -10C, that should yield pretty good results.

Can I buy that in a pre-made solution...and for a reasonable price?


ive checked, and a pentium III can only make out 20-35W of heat at the VERY extreme end. its not much more for a P4.

my Gainward mobo makes only about 5W of heat, but i belive i could cook a meal for an army on my 16mb videocard.

abcdefg1675
22-10-2002, 01:04 AM
Originally posted by Prof Sporlan


Your mixing energy units (Btu's) and power units (Btu/min). :) A Btu will cool one pound of water one degree Fahrenheit. A Btu/min will cool one pound of water one degree Fahrenheit in one minute...



Mmmm... an overachieving a/c unit :) 102 gal * 8.33 lb/gal * 10C * 1.8F/C = 15,294 Btu. If cooled in one minute: 15,294 Btu/min = 76.5 tons...


yes. when i was doing the calculations, it seemed that something was hokey.
on my airconditioner, the BTU's are in BTU's/hour. so it can cool 8500lbs of water by 1 degree in an hour. that seems right, or is it? thats only about 1020 gallons of water.

water problably wouldnt be a good thing to measure your a/c's btus. the only way you could get it to cool 1020 gallons of water is to lift the unit up on a crane and have the evaporator sitting on the surface of a pool. i suppose maybe a space heater would work, if you have it blow the hot air on the evaporator, and have the cool air ducted to the back of the heater, and take a temp reading of the air in the back of the heater.

how many BTU's are equal to a Watt of heat?

aenigma
22-10-2002, 08:32 AM
Uhmmmm what are you smoking? :p
P3's can make well over 40 watts.Actually I think somewhere around 80 watts overclocked.
Some P4's make over 150 watts overclocked.

Oh by the way an 8500btu a/c unit should move about 2500 watts of heat.

Hubris
22-10-2002, 01:53 PM
That would be quite the overclock indeed. AMD chips make more heat than Intel....and when the chips shrunk to .13u die, the heat production dipped slightly.

150W output from the cpu alone....I'd think you'd have to be 50% overvolting the chip, with a serious overclock as well.


Regardless....your challenge isn't simply trying to remove the heat - a system is plenty capable of doing that....the challenge is to remove the heat, keeping the CPU cold enough for your overclock. You need something specific (like a TEC) to pull the heat directly away from the cpu.

aenigma
22-10-2002, 09:19 PM
Uhm or refrigeration.You know something effecient that actually removes heat. ;)

Yeah a P4 will put out 150watts.AMD's will do it pretty easily also, I havent checked on them lately.
I just remember talking to some guy that calculated his cpu's wattage, and it was 150 watts.

Alright according to a cpu wattage calculator, a p4 2.0 @ 3.0 stock voltage is 150 watts.This is for a .18 micron cpu, not .13
The .13 do run cooler that is for sure, they only have a voltage of 1.525.

My cpu, when I get around to fixing my evapblock, will be putting out 150 watts of heat if I hit 2ghz@2.3v.

Hubris
22-10-2002, 09:28 PM
You can download a program called Radiate that will calculate the heat output, based on the chip, the speed, and the voltage. I was first put onto it by Tom Leufken...one of the pioneers of using TEC's on computers.

I'm pretty sure 150W is really high. The Palomino core Athlon 1400 is about the highest there is.... (the 2200 and later is lower, due to the die change) and at 1.75V at stock speeds it makes 85W.

Regardless...the challenge of the original poster (wanting to refrigerate a case and aircool the cpu within that case) is not to keep the case cool....but to prevent condensation. With aircooling, your CPU is always going to be X hotter than the case temps. The cooler your case, the cooler your cpu.

aenigma
22-10-2002, 09:31 PM
I edited my post, I already used a cpu wattage calculator that actually works.By the way, tom leufkin is a retard hahaha

Of course 150 watts is high, it is an overclocked cpu.I am not talking stock speeds here, who would refrigerate their case to have stock speeds? :confused:

abcdefg1675
23-10-2002, 01:06 AM
i bought a really tall networking tower 386 computer at goodwill. if i took out the rack thing that mounts 6 hard drives (i can hold 1 hard drive without it) i can cram in the evaporator, condensor and compressor of a refridgerator that i recently gutted.

is electro still an active member? its been a VERY long time since he/she has used this forum.

i did ruin the 386 computer with a 50W peltier. the whole cpu was a block of ice. its going to have a tiny atx slot 1 athlon mobo put in it.

the evaporator of the refridgerator is an "ice chest". its a tin box that holds meat and ice. the motherboard can fit in it along with the video and networking card. i also have plenty of insulation salvaged from the refridgerator. unfortunatly, its about 40 years old and the compressors very weak. the evaporator doesnt get very cool when its just sitting outside plugged in.

Hubris
23-10-2002, 01:55 AM
You are going to have to completely seal the case against the outside air....at least any portion that is getting cold. If any moist air from your room comes into contact with the cold components, moisture, water, frost, and ice will become the end of your components.

abcdefg1675
25-10-2002, 12:22 AM
i remeber looking at a link posted at www.hardforum.com about the heat output from processors released from their manufacturers. its been awhile, and i dont know what i was smoking.

theoretically, if the ice chest was fully insulated and sealed, the slow transfer of heat would probably dehumidify and create frost on the inside of the box, before the water in the air would have a chance to condense on the cpu and motherboard.

abcdefg1675
25-10-2002, 12:27 AM
im not going to put the refridgerator inside my pc. it wont cut the mustard with an overclocked amd K7-500. it can go up to ~800 and stay stable. im thinking of using water pumps to circulate cooled water from 2-3 55W peltiers, and have the peltiers at the top of the case where they can be cooled with a regular heatsink.

Hubris
25-10-2002, 05:26 AM
A chiller system....what you've described here....is very capable of yielding low cpu temps - however it typically isn't used with a single water system. The chillers cool water in one circuit, which keep a waterbock cold - and this waterblock cools the water for an additional separate circuit which actually cools the cpu.

Very complicated....takes up a lot of space, requires a lot of fabricating (or expensive purchases).

My suggestion if you intend to watercool.....is to build a chiller that acts like an office watercooler - chill a resevoir of water outside the pc, and circulate the water to cool the cpu.

Using peltiers as individual chillers makes things overly complicated, in my opinion.

I've seriously considered literally buying an office watercooler. About the only change you might need to make, is a fan blowing through the condensor...since they by default are statically cooled in the air.

aenigma
25-10-2002, 06:10 AM
Ok, pelt chillers do not work for chilling water.I remember someone used about 4-6 226 watt pelts and he still didnt get very good temps.Pelts are very uneffecient.

You can make a waterchiller very easy just by gutting old freezers/refrigerators, a/c units, or office water chillers like hubris said.If your refrigerator you gutted is in good working order, it will handle the heat of your cpu piece of cake.

But it doesnt sound like it is working if its only getting a little cold.Need to go scrounging for some stuff like a/c's and refrigerators :)Another thing you can use is a dehumidifer.

Check out http://www.phase-change.com

abcdefg1675
25-10-2002, 11:58 PM
i noticed when i was trying to freeze a tablespoon of water with my peltier, a few degrees of temp difference on the hot side really changed the temp of the cold side.

i would use one of my 3 8500btu airconditoners, but they use 1300W. that doesnt look good on my parents electric bill.


i was thinking of builing a steel frame for one airconditioner, and making it cube shaped like a dehumidifyer, and have 360* rotating wheels on the bottom. the hot air would be blown out the back, and the cold air could either be sucked in the front and blown over the condensor like in a dehunidifyer, and i could have a lever on the top to open/close a door that lets the air either go to the condensor, or through a 10' long 5" diameter ducting.

im going to wait untill spring to do this. i dont need an airconditioner when its 20 degrees in the morning and 59 in the afternoon.


through, when its snowing outside, i could just use the -10 degree air from outside and have it go to the pc, and have the psu blow dry, fridged warmer air back ouside.


my house had the kitchen extended, and it has a daylight basement. my room is directly below the kitchen, and when the kitchen was extended, it left this 4.5' tall 8' wide 9' deep "cave" between my room and the rest of the house. our lawnmower, snowblower are stored there. so i could move my computer desk over toward my window and just set my computer out in the "cave, which the cement floor of it is level with my desk table. but during the summer i will try tweaking on my refridgerator guts with a kinked return line and oriface. (i had to bend the 4' long line a few times to get it out of the refridgerator, and it bent a few more times on its way out to my grandpas house)

aenigma
26-10-2002, 03:29 AM
My direct die system (when I get it running finally) uses an 8000btu compressor and a 13,500btu compressor :eek:
Air conditioners work great, might as well use one and just see what your electrical bill goes to.1300 watts seems like alot for that system...Also if you gut it and recharge it to handle less heat, power consumption should drop.I dont know if it would be alot, or barely noticable.

Where in washington do you live anyways?

abcdefg1675
27-10-2002, 03:43 AM
Im hooked up to avista utilites in stevens county.

the airconditioners compressor is 3/4 horsepower (i think). i have found 2 a/c compressors that problably weigh 90+lbs each. one is almost 3ft tall, and 8 inches in diameter, and one is about 14" in diameter and 20" tall. they have their pipes cut, and exposed to air, so i am not sure if their siezed or not. the tall skinny one would be great to charge with R22 for 7$/lb and make a 20,000+btu window unit.

aenigma
27-10-2002, 07:38 AM
muahha yeah I have a big one like that and access to several others, but 220v is the problem.I dont have a cord and I am lazy haha
Ok that skinny one I havent een one like that, you sure it isnt a scroll compressor or something?If it is grab it!
I have got a fre compressor that had their pipes cut and they work, but that big one I have has crud in the pipes, wonder what would work to flush it all out....

I want to make a cascade system using methane with that compressor and a 1.5hp copelmatic 2 cylinder compressor.I think they are used in autocascade ultra low temp freezers....

Gary
27-10-2002, 06:29 PM
Keep in mind that BTU's drop as evaporating temperature drops. An 8000btuh A/C system run at low temp isn't going to put out anywhere near 8000btuh. Systems are rated under their design conditions.

aenigma
27-10-2002, 10:32 PM
Yeah I just give btu's as an example of what power rating the compressor is.In my case I only need to it move about 500BTU at a very low evap temp.Now if I had a thermometer, I could find out what evap temp would be, but for the life of me I cant find something that goes below -100f.Unless I want to pay out the nose.

Gary
28-10-2002, 04:24 AM
I think you're dreaming. Worry about that if/when you achieve -100F.

aenigma
28-10-2002, 04:34 AM
I think my "dream" is a reality.
My thermometer only goes to -58, so I dont know my evaporator temp.I never said anything about hitting -100f, I just want a thermometer that goes there so I have a nice range.

I know for a fact it will hit -80f(unloaded) because someone I know gets -80f with a 1/4hp compressor using R22, also no load on the evaporator.

By the way, do you have a p/t chart that gives the boiling point of R22 in a vacuum?

<edit>
How would I know if I got to -100f if I dont have a temp probe that goes that low? :p

Gary
28-10-2002, 04:38 AM
i noticed when i was trying to freeze a tablespoon of water with my peltier, a few degrees of temp difference on the hot side really changed the temp of the cold side.


If I were building an experimental system, I think it would be interesting to refrigerate the hot side of a pelt. Sort of a hybrid cascade. The downside would be the extra heat generated by the pelt, necessitating a larger refrigeration system.

aenigma
28-10-2002, 04:43 AM
I have heard that peltiers lose effeciency the lower they go.Now I dont know if this is true or not.I have had my P3 700 at -49c using an 80w pelt and 2c liquid cooling it.But the mounting was horrible, so it should have been lower than that.

Gary
28-10-2002, 04:47 AM
Why does it matter how low it gets with no load? That's like saying the speedometer on your car will go 200mph if the axle is up on blocks. Load is where the rubber meets the road.

A vacuum P/T chart for R22? Yes, I have one right here in my hot little hands. :)

Gary
28-10-2002, 04:53 AM
All types of refrigeration systems lose efficiency the lower they go.

aenigma
28-10-2002, 04:54 AM
Originally posted by Gary
Why does it matter how low it gets with no load?

A vacuum P/T chart for R22? Yes, I have one right here in my hot little hands. :)
GIMME GIMME :)

Why does it matter what it gets with no load?I am assuming you mean the 2 stage system.
It doesnt matter, other than braggin rights.It is driving me crazy, I really want to know what it gets to.

I was just pointing out that his system running in a vacuum got -80f.Now my system will also run in a vacuum, but it will handle a heatload also.

I want a thermometer so I can tell how far below -58f it actually is, and I am changing capillary to get much lower.I have low resistance (short and big) capillary right now.
I am curious what does R22 boil at in 20 inches?With the low resistance capillary I was getting 18 inches, and it was overfeeding.

aenigma
28-10-2002, 04:56 AM
Originally posted by Gary
All types of refrigeration systems lose efficiency the lower they go.
Well by losing efficiency, I meant the temps actually start to climb.(even with no load).Now I dont know if this is true or not, I dont do much with peltiers.

Gary
28-10-2002, 05:00 AM
I can't help you there. I've never seen a pelt.

Gary
28-10-2002, 05:08 AM
R22 at 18in is about -74F. That's evaporating temperature (aka saturated suction temperature or SST), which is not the same as evaporator temperature. It doesn't mean much by itself.

aenigma
28-10-2002, 05:13 AM
Yeah it is just a rough example.Gives me an estimate.I am sure the evaporator was somewhere around that temp, considering it was definately saturated.
Hey do you use anything like msn or icq/aim?

Gary
28-10-2002, 05:22 AM
I am fairly certain that it was not somewhere around that temp.

I have icq and aim, but unfortunately my scanner isn't working, so I can't scan the P/T chart for you. Got a fax machine?

P.S. To avoid embarassment, restrict bragging about no-load temps to the uninitiated.

aenigma
28-10-2002, 05:27 AM
Originally posted by Gary
I am fairly certain that it was not somewhere around that temp.

I have icq and aim, but unfortunately my scanner isn't working, so I can't scan the P/T chart for you. Got a fax machine?

P.S. To avoid embarassment, restrict bragging about no-load temps to the uninitiated.
Oh the chart doesnt matter, I just wanted to know what it boils at around 20 inches...

BTW what do you mean about restrict bragging to the uninitiated?

Gary
28-10-2002, 05:39 AM
R22 at 18in is about -80F SST.

People in the refrigeration trade will tend to chuckle if you mention temperatures achieved with no load. It doesn't mean a thing. How high can you jump if there is no gravity? The load is where the rubber meets the road.

aenigma
28-10-2002, 06:42 AM
Ok I see what you mean.I wasnt talking aobut bragging to people like that :)

abcdefg1675
05-12-2002, 12:53 AM
this seems to be a "dead thread". electro hasnt even replied to this thread. electro hasnt even loggen on in months.

i remeber seeing a website, which was about "direct die" evaporative cooling. their was a link their for a case made my a company with a refridgerator in the bottom part of it. their were insulated lines going from the bottom part to where you would mount an evaporator block onto the cpu. i think the company that made the case was promentaria, or somethig that sounds similar.

Hubris
05-12-2002, 02:53 AM
Yes...Prometria make an addon-cooler that you put under your case, and extend the evaporator up into where your cpu sits. This is very much the same design as I've been taking in trying to make my cooler...unfortunately I've had a bit of a problem finding someone to finish everything (solder the last tubing, charging with refrigerant) and more recently it's been called into question whether the setup I'm building is powerful enough to handle a cpu.

www.vapochill.com is one manufacturer of complete cases, and
www.kryotech.com was the original commercial computer cooler.

aenigma
06-12-2002, 06:55 AM
Yeah, prometeia, its a real disgrace.Overpriced and underperforming.But people still pay for it.

abcdefg1675
10-12-2002, 02:24 AM
as long as their isnt much competition, people will pay money and get ripped off for a crappy evaporative cooler.

i still think it would be a better more engergy efficent idea if someone were to buy two 270W peltiers, and have the hot side watercooled. you could easily have the power variable to the both of them.
im waiting for some peltiers someone is giving me, and i will just "gang" about 3 of them, and have everything controlled with the parrellel port and some homemade software.

herefishy
10-12-2002, 03:08 AM
........................sheesh...............!!!!! :rolleyes:

aenigma
11-12-2002, 08:14 AM
Originally posted by abcdefg1675
as long as their isnt much competition, people will pay money and get ripped off for a crappy evaporative cooler.

i still think it would be a better more engergy efficent idea if someone were to buy two 270W peltiers, and have the hot side watercooled. you could easily have the power variable to the both of them.
im waiting for some peltiers someone is giving me, and i will just "gang" about 3 of them, and have everything controlled with the parrellel port and some homemade software.

Peltiers are extremely unneffecient.People usually run 1 226w pelt, and always get lousy temps.Back in the day with low wattage p3's peltiers worked ok though.

The current pelts (226 watt) need high amperage PSU's to run them.So say your running 2 then your drawing over 500 watts, assuming they are effecient.About 20 amps at 12 volts times 2 pelts.Alot more than a little 1/4hp compressor.

A refrigeration system is much much better, just don't buy a premade system.

Although someone is coming out with these things called "cool-chips" and they say it is more effecient than refrigeration...We will see....

abcdefg1675
15-12-2002, 07:03 PM
Peltiers are very small compared to an Ac system, and they dont make noise.

But with compressors, they take up nearly half of your case. with peltiers, you can vary the power to them with a circuit similar to a dc motor speed control circuit.

aenigma
16-12-2002, 12:00 AM
Yes but you see, compressors are almost silent.The fans are pretty quiet also.With a pelt, they are dumping a very large ammount of heat into the water, and you use loud fans to get rid of that heat.
Direct die refrigeration unit = quiet + good temps.
Pelt cooling = noisy + lousy temps.
I think we see the winner here...

Ah by the way, I was talking about average 1/4hp compressors from refrigerators/freezers, not A/C compressors.They are kind of noisy, but not bad at all.

abcdefg1675
17-12-2002, 12:11 AM
i gutted an old frigidair refridgerator, with the icebox thing that was the actual evaporator. it has a 1/8hp compressor and the only noticible noise is when it first powers up, and the hissing of the *****. I kinked up the line pretty bad (the return line from the evaporator) it looks like someone took pliers and squashed the line. I cant afford ***** at 60$/lb, so i doubt i will use this system in my computer anytime soon. R22 is 7$/lb, and i have to buy it in 30lb containers (the servicing place doesnt do business with domestic home refridgerators, only the huge walk in ones that need 30lbs or more of refridgerant, so if they open the can they charge me for the whole thing).

If i did plan to convert the system to R22, will i need to change only the restriction capillary tubing (the really tiny piping)?

ive seen a chart for different refrigerants, and ive seen 2 different refridgerants of R11, one of them boils at -100*C. i would like to have a tiny crappy fridgerator that would run on that stuff. (it would be my luck thats its 500$/lb)

aenigma
17-12-2002, 05:31 AM
Originally posted by abcdefg1675
i gutted an old frigidair refridgerator, with the icebox thing that was the actual evaporator. it has a 1/8hp compressor and the only noticible noise is when it first powers up, and the hissing of the *****. I kinked up the line pretty bad (the return line from the evaporator) it looks like someone took pliers and squashed the line. I cant afford ***** at 60$/lb, so i doubt i will use this system in my computer anytime soon. R22 is 7$/lb, and i have to buy it in 30lb containers (the servicing place doesnt do business with domestic home refridgerators, only the huge walk in ones that need 30lbs or more of refridgerant, so if they open the can they charge me for the whole thing).

If i did plan to convert the system to R22, will i need to change only the restriction capillary tubing (the really tiny piping)?

ive seen a chart for different refrigerants, and ive seen 2 different refridgerants of R11, one of them boils at -100*C. i would like to have a tiny crappy fridgerator that would run on that stuff. (it would be my luck thats its 500$/lb)

:D
If your refrigerator can keep low side at around 0psi or so, and a highside pressure of probably 1000psi then you could use it, sure :D
That is a cascade refrigerant.And who said you need R22?Use R290(propane), I use it in all of my system, don't be scared away by it being flammable as a sealed system won't just magically set itself on fire.Alot of people think propane is just death in a can.

I would go with at least 6 feet of .026" capillary, maybe more....

abcdefg1675
17-01-2003, 01:09 AM
I would prefer a refridgerant that is most efficent, which would be R12, but that isnt an option. If propane is better than R22 at conducting heat and boiling easier, then i will use it.

aenigma
17-01-2003, 02:17 AM
Propane is much better than R12, lower boiling point, better capacity etc.
But it is not better than R22.

The main advantage of propane is the cost and availibility.

AndrOvr
18-01-2003, 12:58 AM
well.. I finished my phase change cooler :)

using r409a and 1/4hp.

I tested just for some mim, in bios.. I got readings of -18c w stock (1.8a)
Its not all that great.. I know ... not like prometeia... but it costed 1/4 of it.. and Im a beginner in this :P

MRW
18-02-2003, 10:04 PM
there is an tower base unit that would fit under a desk,and
is not much bigger than a normal base unit.
It has a cold plate and runs on r134a.
The operating temp is -17c,or if the gas charge is altered,it can go to - 25,but you run the risk of blowing up the compressor.
I think the name of the kit is asiacs,or something like that.
I will try and locate the correct spec of the kit,the guy that had this piece of kit was running an 2.6 chip,heavily clocked.

subzero*psia
19-02-2003, 03:32 PM
I'm not really much of a computer guru so bear with me... why is there such an interest in increasing the speed? If your Internet Service Provider only has the capability to deliver at a set rate of speed... you still have to wait for graphics to load if the internet is bogged down with users. If a person is running graphic intense program off their own PC or performing mathamatical computations for NASA... I guess then I could see why. Is this for using on the internet or home based programs?

I could be wrong... wouldn't be the first time.... :p

Robearbam
19-02-2003, 03:53 PM
Actually, I believe that the cooling concerns are more prominent today because of the almost microwave freq's of the processors. Surely games are the most proc demanding therefor heat effects are a problem. Just by keeping an electric motor or transformer cool, you can up it's capacity rating. I believe everything evolves around temperature, even the globe.:D

Shane Rupe
19-02-2003, 06:29 PM
aenigma
Did you see the news story a few years back about the guy in Spokane that blew his car up useing propane in his ac?

Hubris
19-02-2003, 11:27 PM
RoBearBam is correct....the desire to increase speed is either for gaming....or solely for bragging rights from having the highest scores in benchmarks. Overclocking your machine won't make you browse the web any faster....or type in word processors any more effectively.

Consider why people try improve power and traction in their cars...solely so they can drag race faster. Few real world benefits....but it's the challenge.

aenigma
22-02-2003, 01:06 AM
Shane Rupe:
Nope I didn't, but I wouldn't feel comfortable charging a cars a/c system with propane.Cars also have a fuel tank, and that is just as explosive.
If you get an engine fire and have an a/c system charged with propane, well, that wouldn't be pretty. :D

The reason I overclock is mainly for the challenge of cooling the cpu to the lowest temps possible.I also get alot of added system performance along with the challenge of cooling :)

abcdefg1675
12-03-2003, 12:24 AM
some people who want more power might have a 1977 cadillac coupe deville that tips the scales at nearly 6000lbs (18.5' long car) with a 425v8 that only does 0-60 in 7.5 seconds...

Im slowly putting together a "cyro cooler" as you could call it. Its parts from an old R12 fridge that works fine but looks like crap. "one mans trash is another mans treasure". Ill be replacing the refridgerant with a 5$ can of pure propane from good ole wall-fart. and if i mess up on something, its not a big money loss.

I can get R22 for 7$/lbs but the problem is the local place only deals with walk in type freezers, and when they tap a 30lb tank you buy the whole thing. 200 and something dollars worth of refridgerant.

angryk
13-03-2003, 11:46 PM
R22 goes for a little under $50 for a 30 pounder

abcdefg1675
14-03-2003, 11:34 PM
not for me. I would also need an EPA license/certificate to keep the leftovers of the 30lb tank. I need a low temperature cooler, and My R22 airconditioner, with NO load on the evaporator gets down to 20 degrees. Propane is a better and cheaper choice for me.

Hemant Anand
27-09-2005, 08:10 AM
Hi,
Try a panel cooler. There are many suppliers - one can be found at: www.heatexchangerinfo.com

Good luck

Hemant

zolar1
16-10-2005, 02:56 AM
Go to www.overclockers.com or www.microcenter.com .

Microcenter has computers already made with everything you could dream of. The computer is blue, and has an external condenser unit that's pleasing to the eye, and works great.;)

Good Luck!

Zolar

PS Look into a Peltier Cooler while you're at it.:D

abcdefg
17-10-2005, 01:39 AM
I had some peltiers on an older P3 celeron. The thing died before I even got going with it, im not sure why. I had coated the underside of where the cpu mounts with some silicon insulation, and grease on the cpu pins.

Once I was lazy, and modded a full tower case to hook up to the outputs on an 8,000btu window unit that I set on a table. Put some insulation in the case, insulated flexible ducting, it cooled the case down fairly cold. This would eliminate most of the problems that cause condensation, it would seem.

I was thinking the other day. Why not do this, but to a rackmount chassis? With some good insulation, low noise squirrel fans, and put the exhaust ductings to face a room window? Its about 45F outside, im wearings shorts and a T shirt and sweating like a pig in here. And I only have two gaming computers, nothing else. Window is open too.

It wouldnt be the cheapest or the most space efficent method, but it could be a lot better if you are doing more than one or two computers at a time.

Just another idea of mine.

frank
17-10-2005, 08:26 PM
I was thinking the other day. Why not do this, but to a rackmount chassis? With some good insulation, low noise squirrel fans, and put the exhaust ductings to face a room window?
This is a similar method to how we cool racks in commercial server rooms.
Raise the racks up from the sub-floor with a ventilated space below and force cool air into the space. The cool air then passes through the racks picking up the waste heat and is ejected from the top of the racks into the room. The indoor unit then draws the warmed air into the filters and the process starts all over again.

Been like this for donkey's years. It's called downflow configuration.

chillin out
17-10-2005, 08:44 PM
This is a similar method to how we cool racks in commercial server rooms.
Raise the racks up from the sub-floor with a ventilated space below and force cool air into the space. The cool air then passes through the racks picking up the waste heat and is ejected from the top of the racks into the room. The indoor unit then draws the warmed air into the filters and the process starts all over again.

We service a few of those, works even better when they dont leave the access boards on the sub floor off.:( :(

douggiestyle
01-03-2006, 02:11 AM
i happened to catch this. i dont know if this has been mentioned. didnt read all 159 post. but these work very well. just run it through a small heat exchanger stuck in a frig.
http://www.cooltechnica.com/Merchant2/merchant.mvc?Screen=CTGY&Category_Code=WB

Paulajayne
15-03-2006, 04:01 PM
Easy Way:-

Buy a small fridge - choose carefull and drill a hole through the side approx 30 mm. You have to avoid the pipes.

Put your pc base unit in it and throught the hole connect it up.

Turn on the fridge and allow to cool then fire up your PC.

Small fridge - Circa 40.:)

Hole - Nil if you already have the tools.:)

You can stilk your and your childrens drawing on the fridge as well. :cool:

Watch the magnets near floppy and hard disks.

Paula

phil68
15-03-2006, 05:12 PM
Easy Way:-

Buy a small fridge - choose carefull and drill a hole through the side approx 30 mm. You have to avoid the pipes.

Put your pc base unit in it and throught the hole connect it up.

Turn on the fridge and allow to cool then fire up your PC.

Small fridge - Circa 40.:)

Hole - Nil if you already have the tools.:)

You can stilk your and your childrens drawing on the fridge as well. :cool:

Watch the magnets near floppy and hard disks.

Paula
Yes, what you haven't anticipated is that once the computer is started it will generate heat & because of the miniscule cooling capacity of a domestic fridge it won't have a hope in hell's chance of bringing that space temperature down again. And because you've now got the tower in an insulated enclosed space there's nowhere for the heat to escape & so it will just get hotter & hotter until you get terminal meltdown.:)

chillin out
15-03-2006, 07:49 PM
Small fridge - Circa 40.

Hole - Nil if you already have the tools.

Go to switch on and realise that some idiot has swapped the tower for 3 crates of beer - priceless


Chillin:) :)

Paulajayne
15-03-2006, 09:12 PM
Yes, what you haven't anticipated is that once the computer is started it will generate heat & because of the miniscule cooling capacity of a domestic fridge it won't have a hope in hell's chance of bringing that space temperature down again. And because you've now got the tower in an insulated enclosed space there's nowhere for the heat to escape & so it will just get hotter & hotter until you get terminal meltdown.:)


Phil - it was a joke

Paula

phil68
15-03-2006, 09:27 PM
Phil - it was a joke

Paula
I knew that, ahem. Bugger, what am I going to do with this fridge that I've now cut a hole in the side of?:)

Paulajayne
16-03-2006, 01:43 PM
I knew that, ahem. Bugger, what am I going to do with this fridge that I've now cut a hole in the side of?:)

Make the hole bigger and you have a nesting box for penguins ?

:D

Paula

whiffnsniff
20-03-2006, 10:51 PM
Why not just use something like this which has been designed for pc's and will cost a damn sight less
http://www.aria.co.uk/ProductInfoComm.asp?ID=19756

alpha
20-03-2006, 11:33 PM
where is the fun in buying something like that wheN you could build something that gets 20 times colder..?

ChrisKlinger
21-03-2006, 11:54 PM
There was an article several months ago, I believe in the WS Journal, about the importance manufacturers are giving to silencing their PCs. In it was mentioned a fellow who placed his entire motherboard submerged in transformer oil. Complete silence, excellent thermal stability and, if you added a small radiator and fan, I would imagine near perfect cooling. Plumbing a radiator to draw from the bottom and return to the top level of oil (obviously not allowing air into the tubes), convection would circulate the oil well enough, I would imagine, without needing a pump. That's how the power company's transformers are cooled, so why not on a small scale? No styrofoam. No compressors. No refrigerants. No increase in energy consumption. No added noise. And possibly best of all, no refrigeration engineer required (they dont seem to be quite as amiable as computer techs and aviation people;). Quiet and very effective. Of course, probably messy when you want to add memory or a card...

dogma
27-03-2006, 09:16 AM
I've been wondering lately, I have quite a new PC with a high spec, but the problem is, the faster the component's and CPU's that go into PC's and motherboards - the more heat they chuck out.

I was thinking, Is it possible to find a working fridge, and disassamble it, and using the parts to make an A/C system for my PC's case, my main questions are:

1) Is it easy to connect all the components and copper tubing?
2) Is it a safe thing to do, IE, fire risks? electrocution?
3) How easy is to 'gas-up' the system? (I need a friend who is a refrigeration engineer...)


I visited the tip a few weeks ago, and there was what looked like a compressor/fan/radiator unit there, painted black, looked nice...
I only wished I got it now! :rolleyes:
What are the chances of finding a working compressor, for free, or very cheap?

Thanks in advance!

-Dave ;)

PS, this was posted in the refigeration section, but I just noticed that there was a A/C section, lol, sorry about that!



Hi Mate. There is a web site/ forum designated to just that. Watercooling cpu overclocking etc etc. I joined a couple yrs back thinking it was a refrigeration forum. There are some very clui nerds that would be more than happy to help.


http://www.xtremeresources.com



Good luk mate;)

sk8ter646
17-04-2006, 05:50 PM
can i say i do this stuff as a hobby and it is easy to do

you have 2 choices either buy a premade kit for 500 or have some fun and build your self one

go to

http://www.phase-change.com

pocketbikeuk
24-04-2006, 10:52 AM
checkout http://www.xtremesystems.org/forums/forumdisplay.php?f=80 you can speak to the world famous chilly1 he can help you or as can any of the other members there is hundreeed of home made systems built every week by users of this forum

Hubris
24-04-2006, 02:09 PM
By far the easiest way to get into the refrigeration game for pcs is to setup standard watercooling for the processor, video and northbridge, then cool the loop via an external chiller. You can find a chiller assembly from a number of sources, and might be able to scrounge something that won't even require assembling anything yourself.

Most computer people have no problem tearing down a computer and building it from scratch. Most HVAC guys have no problem doing the same with a cooling system. There's a fair bit of learning involved in being able to do both. If you're interested - the websites previously mentioned have some really hardcore people who can definately assist.

HVACGod
24-04-2006, 11:23 PM
Assuming this is still an active thread to the OP...and at the risk of pissing the wrong person off for linking to another forum, there are detailed plans, images and step by step instructions for doing this on a forum dedicated to the topic...I personally have no interest at all in the topic so I don't know if you have to register to use the forum or not. I have ran across several of their publications during trade searches on various search engines. It appears as though the most specific forum addressing this is the 3rd down after you arrive at the site.

http://www.xtremesystems.org/forums/

[I]If I am stepping out of established bounds listing this link, please advise and remove. Otherwise hope it is helpful.

HVACGod
24-04-2006, 11:32 PM
Minor correction on that last post, after you get to the forums site, scroll through the entire forum list...lots of discussion on vapor, liquid, dry ice cooling applications

Waddah
28-04-2006, 09:36 AM
i know that for sever panel there is an option to be delivered with A/C Units.
But one year ago i heared about smiconductors which spplied by DC Current and it could provide cooling at one side and heating on other side. it is fantastice way to make cooling to the Microprocesor of the pc.
If any have more information i am interesting to know

Hubris
28-04-2006, 02:05 PM
You're talking about a TEC, or thermoelectric cooler. For the purposes of cooling a pc I wouldn't recommend them. Not only does it take a lot of power (you require a TEC with 50% more power than your processor emits) but you then need a method of cooling the warm side of the TEC that will need to remove 150% of the processor output.

Phase-change refrigeration is much more efficient if low temps are your goal.

herefishy
07-05-2006, 05:55 PM
Actually, TECs are commonly used for cooling CPU's - typically employed by hobbist overclockers. I beleive often a heat sink and fan are attached to cool the "hot" side of the TEC.

http://www.xtremesystems.org/forums/forumdisplay.php?f=94

zolar1
08-05-2006, 03:36 AM
Between my Tower and TV set, I am able to heat my modest living room! LOL

Maybe HP81 and an R22 Window A/C compressor could cool sufficiently with one of the units?

Or get the water cooler system, and put the heat dissipating tower inside a refrigerator?

Hubris
08-05-2006, 04:23 AM
A heatsink and fan aren't able to transfer enough energy to handle a modern CPU...watercooling is about the only option. I didn't suggest that people don't do it....but that based on my experience doing it in the past - that it's not as good an option as people think.


Actually, TECs are commonly used for cooling CPU's - typically employed by hobbist overclockers. I beleive often a heat sink and fan are attached to cool the "hot" side of the TEC.

http://www.xtremesystems.org/forums/forumdisplay.php?f=94

Alex Harvey
26-05-2006, 09:33 AM
Don't over complicate, you only need to give some cooling and not refrigerate your PC. If you over cool this can cause condensation or high humidity which you know can cause its own problems. As already touched on PC's are designed to work at normal room temperature, but the failure rate of any one component will double for every 2deg C of increase in temperature.
A portable air conditioner blowing on your computer should be suffient. Something like units on www.airconditionershack.co.uk or other similar sites search for mobile air conditioner.

Targ
28-05-2006, 10:11 PM
Don't over complicate, you only need to give some cooling and not refrigerate your PC. If you over cool this can cause condensation or high humidity which you know can cause its own problems. As already touched on PC's are designed to work at normal room temperature, but the failure rate of any one component will double for every 2deg C of increase in temperature.
A portable air conditioner blowing on your computer should be suffient. Something like units on www.airconditionershack.co.uk or other similar sites search for mobile air conditioner.


but this isnt something that you do to a day to day pc (although you can and many do) but mainly aimed and derived from the benchmarking community, where every Mhz is important.

there is not doubt that cpus can go faster at low tempertaures, by the very nature silcone.

and with althings in life, want ten years ago was 'extreme' and world record breaking is now realitively common place.

personly this is my original reason to getting into refrigeration, the purpose of world records. and i dont use compressor cooling for day to day computing. (not for any of the reasons you mentioned). just the compressor fcuked with wireless signal :(

sry ofr the spelling, little drunk.

targ

KISS KISS BANG
29-05-2006, 03:23 PM
Don't know if anyone else has noticed but the guy who posted the original thread requesting info on how to cool his PC hasn't posted anything since August 2001. So whilst everyone else is trying to find a way for him to run his processor at 2GHZ, he's probably allready bought one and now running at 4GHZ.!!!

billyfridge
11-06-2006, 11:21 PM
as has been mentioned before, extra efficient cooling of a domestic computer must create condensation, which is fatal to the motherboard of a computer.

KaiserSoze
13-06-2006, 11:37 PM
Hello!

There are some very experienced and knowledgeable engineers and service personnel is these forums; great place to learn some things.

I too am a computer performance enthusiast. So far most of the replies from the experts have seemed focused on questioning the usefullness of cooling a computer system; i.e. "computer are designed for ambient cooling"

For computer geeks like me, pushing the edge of performance is for some reason fun. If a computer or CPU Overclocker has actually made it to this forum, you can bet the know as much about computers as the experts here know about refrigeration systems and cooling applications.

If someone comes here seeking some expert opinion, maybe the engineers here could just keep an open mind think about a creative solution instead of dismissing the idea out of hand.

Many of the posts by the experts here in regards to computer cooling and its possibilities are flat wrong.

Overclockers are no different than hobbiest that customize their cars, motorcycles, etc. For computers heat is a problem and cooling is the solution.

There are in fact commercially available applications like this available and some engineer had the creativity and vision to implement this.

See this CPU Phase Change (http://www.crazypc.com/products/9290GT.html) cooling system. It is a proprietary hermetic system that uses Danfoss compressors and R404A. But its expensive.

And a how to build your own (http://www.overclockers.com/tips1238/index.asp) Phase Change System here.

Lots of overclockers would like to learn more about applications that are less expensive.

Perhaps some of your experts could entertain some valuable discussions about your field of expertise and impart some knowledge to some hobbyists that could benefit from your experience and training.

Nothing wrong with people having fun and learning in the process.

~KS~

chillerman2006
16-06-2006, 12:23 AM
I've been wondering lately, I have quite a new PC with a high spec, but the problem is, the faster the component's and CPU's that go into PC's and motherboards - the more heat they chuck out.

I was thinking, Is it possible to find a working fridge, and disassamble it, and using the parts to make an A/C system for my PC's case, my main questions are:

1) Is it easy to connect all the components and copper tubing?
2) Is it a safe thing to do, IE, fire risks? electrocution?
3) How easy is to 'gas-up' the system? (I need a friend who is a refrigeration engineer...)


I visited the tip a few weeks ago, and there was what looked like a compressor/fan/radiator unit there, painted black, looked nice...
I only wished I got it now! :rolleyes:
What are the chances of finding a working compressor, for free, or very cheap?

Thanks in advance!

-Dave ;)

PS, this was posted in the refigeration section, but I just noticed that there was a A/C section, lol, sorry about that!

hi dave

being an a/c engineer and building my own pc's for some time now i thought the same as you why not fit a/c to my pc

looked into all the options of constructing a a/c system to fit in or on a pc tower case and then during my testing of heat loads on towers that had been modified i found the simple answer.

as you increase components or speed of components there is an increase in current required from the power supply unit and this causes the psu to run at nearer its limit, creating most of the haet, so the simple answer was not to try and cool the tower but to use an oversize psu.

a psu that is running well below its spec can easily deal with the heat it creates and as the fan is larger or runs faster than a smaller psu the whole tower temperature drops dramatically.

try a larger psu its much cheaper and safer than trying to fit an a/c system, the main problem i found with a/c was moisture, this could quite easily cause unwanted electrical paths in your pc and fry the components.

all the best Chillerman2006

Targ
18-06-2006, 12:16 AM
Cooling of the entire case is very difficult an usually results in prblems, but can be done.

but what is much easier is the use of Direct Die (DD) or Chilled watewr (chiller) cooling.

DD, alows you to cool one (maybe 2) parts of your pc, typically CPU and GPU, to the range of -20C to -50C and enable medium to high overclocks.

Chillers allow the cooling of many parts of the computer, using water cooling equimpent, to the range of 0C to -30C. such as CPU, GPU, NorthBridge, SouthBrgide, any other chip you want to.

but cooling the entire case is only a sensible idea if you are using something like Liquid Nitrogen on the CPU and GPU, and the cooling is just to reduce the chance of condensation,

targ

(drunk so excuse anything that doesnt make sence)

Targ
18-06-2006, 12:20 AM
as has been mentioned before, extra efficient cooling of a domestic computer must create condensation, which is fatal to the motherboard of a computer.


Im not sure about this prticualar post, but it is a serious issue in this type of cooling.

but there is a lot of people involved in this "hobby" and many of them have a good knowledge of what is happing if this, and therefore the probelm has been well thoughtout and solutions have been found.

targ

(still drunk so if it doesnt make sence then :rolleyes: )

electro
19-06-2006, 12:45 AM
OMFG this thread is still running! :O

Hello everyone :) :)

Maybe someday I'll get a/c in my room, working with computers in here, its me thats overheating these days, not the computers :( :(

mr cool
12-07-2006, 12:34 AM
there are new regulations coming in to force with regards to obtaining, charging and recovering refrigerants and it will be illeagal for anyone to buy or sell or use any 'gas' without having full certification of handling refrigrants. by the way they can cause severe burns to the skin and eyes and can cause asphixyation (suffocation) as well as the r6oo series being explosive and dont even go near nh3. like the idea though. you could always look into getting a room a/c system fitted

scoobydoo6v92
25-03-2007, 02:15 AM
Let me rephrase my answers, then.

Is it easy to connect refrigeration components? Yes, if you know how. No, if you don't.

Is it safe? Yes, if you know how. No, if you don't.

Is it easy to "gas up" a system? Yes, if you know how. No, if you don't.

Every profession you can think of is easy for those who know what they are doing.

You seem to think repairing a fridge is easy. Try it. Remove all of the components, and then put them all back together.

Then call someone who has sufficient training and experience to make it look easy, and who will charge you accordingly.
That is true,,, But I would have someone who knows what they are doing to do the hard part of this idea which I am going to do with my dual core rack server, the fans are driving my insane!!!!! Coolance is another water cooled company, How about a water cooled affair and aquire a remote chiller from a beverage company and pipe in cooled water. Try to leave the refer stuff together. If you want to learn the ins and outs of the business, have a pro evacuate the system charge the system and solder it after you assemble it. The only way to learn is to grab the bul by the horns and drag it kicking and screaming to the ground!! T,

The MG Pony
25-03-2007, 10:10 AM
Swiftech is the best IMO can't go wrong with them. MCW6002 water block coupled to a 6,000BTU chiller with a 20 plate Exchanger and a good Iwaki and you'll be set.

electro
15-05-2007, 01:15 AM
OMFG this thread is still running! :O

Hello everyone :) :)

Maybe someday I'll get a/c in my room, working with computers in here, its me thats overheating these days, not the computers :( :(

Haha the thread is back alive, do I get an award for the longest running thread? hehe, keep up the good work :D

Abe
23-05-2007, 04:22 PM
Electro

Yes, this thread is still kicking
I couldnt believe it !!!

Goes back to 2001

Yes, you deserve a medal for initiating this enduring poser

And glad you still with us.

:)

ServerChill
30-05-2007, 08:56 AM
Wow, this post has been going for some time.

Working in the computer field for almost 20 years now, cooling a computer has always been an issue. That being said, the only sure method is a cool room and lots of computer case airflow.

Not everyone has the ability for a dedicated computer room with it's own 50,000 BTU cooling system, the next best thing is using a liquid cooling system with an "outside" chiller that employs multiple TEC's.
(Thermo Electric Coolers)

Since I could never find one that fit my needs, I have had to buy a 2 or 3 units and take them to the garage for some serious mods.

Yes, it's not cheap, yes, it takes some time and yes, you can make your computer run at whatever temp you want.

There is a process called stacked-peltier, which can produce negitive temps. ( -5c -20c -50c ), if you couple this with a non-water liquid, you can approach the ultimate over-clocking, near supercomputer speeds. Just watch for condensation.

As for the original post, there is no cheap and easy way to a/c a computer for under $100, maybe in another 10 years.

BUT, it can be done.

The MG Pony
31-05-2007, 03:38 AM
Techs are horrid inefficient devices best forgotten, you get nearly 300% of the cooling power at less energy consumption via a vapour compression chiller.

billyfridge
31-05-2007, 07:20 AM
errr....'cough'......condensation....'cough'

The MG Pony
31-05-2007, 07:29 AM
there are many ways to circumvent the issue of condensation.

malcoa
07-06-2007, 12:19 PM
their are products available, try scan.co.uk, i fitted a cpu water cooler because of overheating whilst gaming-its run great without condensation, just make sure your case is big enough.

jamal adam
08-06-2007, 11:16 PM
thanks Gary about information could you please tell me which book Ibuy for electrical refrigeration and air conditioning I look forward to hearing from you
thank you
Jamal
Manchester

stinkbug
24-08-2007, 08:35 AM
Saw this thread and thought hey, I've seen a refrigerated case before. It's made by Nextherm, I would post the link but I would have to post 15 times before I could. Just go to Google and type in Nextherm, and you'll get a couple of places to buy one.


Hope that helps;)
Stinkbug

stinkbug
24-08-2007, 08:46 AM
Almost forgot, if you combine with a Evercool Silver Knight CPU Watercooler, you will have one of the coldest CPUs ever. Instead of having to run all the water cooling system stuff this is a self contained unit that works like a normal CPU heat sink and fan.

The MG Pony
24-08-2007, 10:22 PM
Almost forgot, if you combine with a Evercool Silver Knight CPU Watercooler, you will have one of the coldest CPUs ever. Instead of having to run all the water cooling system stuff this is a self contained unit that works like a normal CPU heat sink and fan.

All except that its a sad joke that sucks with zero benifit other then bling with less real world performance then Tt that only the newbs get suckered into buying.

They totaly forgot the whole CONCEPT of water cooling! To remove heat from the case, not just recycle it!

Befor you pedal off garbage lets see them numbers wipped out!

markacs
25-08-2007, 05:25 AM
I've been wondering lately, I have quite a new PC with a high spec, but the problem is, the faster the component's and CPU's that go into PC's and motherboards - the more heat they chuck out.

I was thinking, Is it possible to find a working fridge, and disassamble it, and using the parts to make an A/C system for my PC's case, my main questions are:

1) Is it easy to connect all the components and copper tubing?
2) Is it a safe thing to do, IE, fire risks? electrocution?
3) How easy is to 'gas-up' the system? (I need a friend who is a refrigeration engineer...)


I visited the tip a few weeks ago, and there was what looked like a compressor/fan/radiator unit there, painted black, looked nice...
I only wished I got it now! :rolleyes:
What are the chances of finding a working compressor, for free, or very cheap?

Thanks in advance!

-Dave ;)

PS, this was posted in the refigeration section, but I just noticed that there was a A/C section, lol, sorry about that!

KEEP IT STRAIGHT AND SIMPLE!(KISS)YOU DONT NEED TO REFRIGERATE THE CASE.YOU WILL END UP WITH MOISTURE/CONDENSATION PROBLEMS.

1.AIRCON THE ROOM THE P.C. IS IN!
2.INSTALL A BIGGER CPU FAN
3.INSTALL EXTRA FANS INTO YOUR COMPUTER CASE.
4.MAKE A FILTER WITH OLD STOCKING TO ALLOW THE AIR BEING PULLED IN TO BE FILTERED(IF AREA THE P.C.IS IN IS DUSTY) OR YOU WILL END UP WITH HIGH VOLUMES OF DUST BEING SUCKED INTO THE CASE/CPU.

MARKACS

stinkbug
25-08-2007, 08:46 AM
All except that its a sad joke that sucks with zero benefit other then bling with less real world performance then Tt that only the newbs get suckered into buying.

They totally forgot the whole CONCEPT of water cooling! To remove heat from the case, not just recycle it!

before you pedal off garbage lets see them numbers whipped out!

If you combine it with an air conditioned pc case, then you are very effectively removing the hot air from your case. Since the hot air is being removed by the small A/C unit located inside of the case. With that case you don't really even need a pc fan, since a cpu cooling tower would be more than enough. Now if you have enough equipment that this would not be cool enough for you, you could always build your computer inside of a mini fridge. That would be easier than trying to build the fridge motor and compressor into a pc case. Hell all you would really need to do is drill some holes and place the whole damn computer you have now inside, with some insulation foam or some rubber grommets holding the cold air inside. Now yes you would have to open the door to turn it on, connect a device, or put in a cd; but wouldn't that be much easier than pulling apart, and rebuilding a refrigerator inside of a pc case. Not to mention how god awful that would look when your done. At least with your pc inside of a mini fridge you could still put beer in there. To keep out the moisture you could always seal your components with silicone. Or stuff your case with a bunch of those moisture things that I'm always finding in a new pair of shoes.

But anyway, I'm done, so why doesn't someone tell me why that idea won't work, that way I can tell them how much I don't care.

Oh, I almost forgot, I fixed most of the spelling in your post, it's not that hard, the computer does it for you.

The MG Pony
25-08-2007, 09:06 AM
Ya but unlike some people I have no need to pretend I spell flawlesly, it is of such trivial importance in the real world.

Start with garbage you end with garbage, the POS you said for him to use is just that, far inferior surface area compared to even a low end rad, weak pump leaving poor flow rates, dumping the heat right back to once it came, shall I go on?

A properly made water cooling system will net superior resualts even with out the A/C With added A/C would yield even further net results.

Oh and if you did not care why respond? Seems to defy logic.

A minifridge would not work as the system is too weak, you obviously have no clue of what you speak as you'd have knowen this as it is very well knowen fact, That and the verry poor unfounded claim of the perticuler cooling device.

And actualy making the system in the case is verry easy and commenaly don.

http://www.xtremesystems.org/forums/showthread.php?t=94098 < Verry terrible looking indeed!

http://www.ocforums.com/showthread.php?t=373263 < You did actualy look up and research your info right?

stinkbug
26-08-2007, 05:42 AM
The point is I really don't care mainly because my water cooled system works very well for me, and I don't see any reason why I should refrigerate the case.

I really don't care if the cpu cooler doesn't work, because I'm not gonna buy one, my brother has one on his computer and likes it just fine.

My main question is why build a refrigerated case,when you could just as easily buy one for $180?

Plus, if you spell with the mental capability (I know five syllables is a tough one) of a 5th grader, then people will begin to think of you as such. Oh, and it's "known" not "knowen".

The MG Pony
26-08-2007, 08:46 PM
Ah I love people who attack spelling, just shows how weak their argument is when they lack no technical knowledge to attack the point!

Ah Why bother spending a 180 when you can get a high end air cooler that does just as well for like $40? Yet again we see it is illogical. Fine so your brother is happy with spending a large amount of money when he could have spent less and got the same resualts, still not good to recomend to others.

Secondely any serious person does not refrigerate the case, they cool the component directly via a glycol chiller or custom evap head directly on the chip. You're sounding woefuly ignorant of the whole refrigerated cooling scene, I'd rather chat with some one with a clue then flawless spelling! So please go learn a bit!

Make no mistake of associating spelling with technical knowledge nor vocab, you'll get your ass pwned, my goal is not to impress twits with spelling but to help with technical related issues you want to play colledge boy show off we can, but rather pointless in my eyes.

monkey spanners
26-08-2007, 09:06 PM
eye kahnt spehl eeever!

chillin out
01-09-2007, 12:13 AM
Keep it friendly guys. This is meant to be a fun place to be, don't turn it into a slagging match.
Anyway, you are all wrong...

I am the only person that is ever right....

Muhahahaha

Chillin:):)

Tesla
01-09-2007, 01:15 AM
I searched superconductors (thermal) and heat pipes/tubes on the net some years ago and this is what they were working on for cooling processors. I think an ecconomical approch would be to use a fan internally mounted with filtered intake and to pressurise case - this would minimise dust from getting into little gaps. Air could be diverted across the chip and/or drive via hose. The motor could be variable speed to save on power and noise.

mrsparky
05-09-2007, 11:33 AM
I haven't read all of the posts and a idea popped into my head but they make solid state refrigerators for wine cooling etc. My friend brought one into my apartment and the mechanics are minimal. I haven't looked into how they work but you might be able to disassemble one of these and cool your computer rather than a large vaned air cooled heat sink. It would require more power than your battery could supply so you would have to plug it into the wall.

The MG Pony
06-09-2007, 04:32 AM
I haven't read all of the posts and a idea popped into my head but they make solid state refrigerators for wine cooling etc. My friend brought one into my apartment and the mechanics are minimal. I haven't looked into how they work but you might be able to disassemble one of these and cool your computer rather than a large vaned air cooled heat sink. It would require more power than your battery could supply so you would have to plug it into the wall.

Those systems relie on PELTs and thus energy usage is high, and to boot the pelts used in the fridge is much too weak to keep up with current procs.

The most efficeint system is a directly mounted evap head using a standerd refrigerent compressor. Second to that is a chiller system using an Alcohol/water mix with some glycol or glycerin to lub the pump.

marincarl
09-09-2007, 11:03 AM
Hallo to all, being in the lucky situation to have access to all sorts of used and disused stuff i built myself a chiller to cool the innerds of my beefed up computer, i drilled a hole thru the rather fat cpu-heatsink and press-fitted a 1/4"copper tube into it, in series with that i'm using an oil cooler, which had been used for a generator, as 'air handler'. The chiller unit consists of an old fridge compressor (1/8 hp r12, mineral oil) and a similar oil cooler as used in the computer. Refrigerant: 50 g of butane, going thru a fan cooled condenser into a capillary, then to the oil tubing of the oil cooler, and back to the compressor, the chilled water (6C, controlled with thermostate) circulates thru the big tube of the oilcooler in the chillerunit driven by a fishtank pump, plastic tubing to the computer above, thru the cpu heatsink and the oil tubing of the oil cooler within the computer case and back thru plastic tubing to the chiller. the only problem is condensing water on the cpu heatsink, which is drained into a bottle. I'm making about 2 l water a day! have fun, marincarl

tbirdtbird
18-09-2007, 05:41 AM
glad we are back to refer and have left the spelling bee behind:)

VRVForever
18-09-2007, 09:28 PM
Hi, If your computer system is that expensive then i suggest that you contact a local reputable installer, there could be tears otherwise.

bingshan001
19-09-2007, 01:37 AM
thanks a lot!

GreenFly
19-06-2008, 05:06 PM
Question about over clocking.
The amount of heat generated by a computer that is not over clocked is relatively small. How ever when you start to over clock it and have more than a 1000watt power supply, then the heat load starts to become a factor. The first law of thermodynamics is : Energy can not be created nor destroyed only moved from one object to another !
So if you have a 1000watt power supply your computer can only produce a 1000watts of heat !

I have done a lot of research into this topic, an ideal solution would be a cheap and low noise refrigeration system. My idea is to use a water cooling setup on the main heatsinks and the water that circulats through the system will pick up all the heat. So if you could build a system with a water storage tank that is refrigerated and pump that cold water through your computer you could have an ideal system ?
The best part of this thery is that refrigeration and water tank could be in a remote location ( in the basment or on the roof ) and therfore the noice would not be a problem. However the dew point control would be a small problem cause you dont want condensation to form with in your case and short out the electronics ?

This is my first post onto Ref. Eng.
I hope that it is used wizly ?
A south african Refrigeration Engineer

alpha
19-06-2008, 06:19 PM
Hi GreenfFly I see you have a little interest in refrigerated water cooling setup for computer. I have done in the past something very similar to what you describe. A chiller, a coolant resevoir, a pump and a cpu. If you look a few threads down in cpu forum you will see a thread I started a few years back desribing a toy I built. The chiller is in the garage and my pc was upstairs which had water block on cpu, worked very well. Initially I used it to cool one pc then it cooled off a buch of crunchers, quiet good fun to play with. Have fun :)