Sainsburys Contract

[Latte]

Has this changed recently as seem to be a lot of vacancies in the jobs section for engineers for Sainsburys sites (Just looking for research purposes honestly):D

[Spencer.Guy]

The only change was when Arcus Engineering was set up to take on the sites formerly maintained by Project 1st
They are either trying to get back up to the numbers of staff that P.1 used to have or they are trying to get up to the level of staff actually needed give the true service level required.

Sainsburys own 50% ( or thereabouts) of Arcus FM
Arcus FM own Arcus Eng.

.

[thewatcher]

The only change was when Arcus Engineering was set up to take on the sites formerly maintained by Project 1st
They are either trying to get back up to the numbers of staff that P.1 used to have or they are trying to get up to the level of staff actually needed give the true service level required.

Sainsburys own 50% ( or thereabouts) of Arcus FM
Arcus FM own Arcus Eng.

.

I dont think that is true.

Sainsburys made project first unable to maintain the contract and I think you will find arcus engineering is owned by Vectoria holdings, they run along side arcus fm

[thewatcher]

Also alot of engineers are trying to leave arcus engineering because its actually worse than project first.

[480t]

Sainsburys owns 51% of Arcus and it is failing completely, good engineers have left or trying to leave. Other big companies are following suit of their terrible contract that no one from Project 1st has signed yet (they are still on existing contracts from P.1 and previous companies).
The biggest problem is from the top (Reyana) who knows nothing about engineering, others around her who do know about refrigeration are trying to give her advice but she wants to do it the way she was taught in business degree!! Also with Sainsburys sticking their ore in every step of the way, it is a very bad combination and only getting worse!!

[smoggy]

its the same at other places you have the bosses who know nothing about the work or whats involved who try to re invent the wheel they have these ideas that look great on paper ,but the practicalities of it ..it sometimes pays just to sit back and watch it unfold

[buddy]

Sainsburys owns 51% of Arcus and it is failing completely, good engineers have left or trying to leave. Other big companies are following suit of their terrible contract that no one from Project 1st has signed yet (they are still on existing contracts from P.1 and previous companies).
The biggest problem is from the top (Reyana) who knows nothing about engineering, others around her who do know about refrigeration are trying to give her advice but she wants to do it the way she was taught in business degree!! Also with Sainsburys sticking their ore in every step of the way, it is a very bad combination and only getting worse!!

Not many large Refrigeration or FM companies have strong technical men (or women) leading them, this in my opinion is the crux of the problem.

Of coarse numbers are important, however the trend to install Managers with MBA,s and accountants to run a British Engineering business is very short sighted.

They seem to have got it the wrong way round, an engineer who leads a company and who understands the difference between a condensor and an evaporator can always call on the accountants to explain the numbers if needed.
They seem to put accountants or people with a BMA in place and then call on technical if required. however if you dont understand the way the business operates, in my experience they will eventually screw it up and move on leaving others to pick up the pieces and then another MBA or accountant slips in the vacancy?

I have personally been invited to many a board meeting for large corporations mainly as an observer and I am the only technical guy there, theres Sales Directors, Finance Directors, Country Managers (all accountants & MBA men) all in attendance, I always have to conduct side discussions to achieve any Technical or Training objectives...and believe me these money men just dont see the priorities with engineering as long as they achieve the numbers.

Another issue is the trend for the Supermarkets to view Refrigeration companies as just another commodity like a farmer supplying Milk or potatoes, this again is money men thinking trying to squeeze every penny out of the contract.

Good service is not only about KPI's, of coarse it is important, however how can you put a price on the rappor buillt up between a regular Refrigeration Service Engineer who fixes the Store Managers compactor or tinckles with his car building up customer relations?

Try looking at it from a customer point of view, would Sainsbury's, Tesco,s or Waitrose etc wish to talk to the walking accounts department (meaning the current trend of accountant MBA, Managing Directors, Chairmans, Chief Executive,s etc) or an Engineer with the same job title about his Refrigeration issues?

The answer to these Refrigeration and FM company's fortunes is quite simple realy, but they have to have a shift change in the philosophy of how thier engineering businesses are run.

Buddy.

[YoungBoy]

good point!

[buddy]

Thank you...which point?

[YoungBoy]

The general point of companies being constructed in reverse to logic!!!

[buddy]

The general point of companies being constructed in reverse to logic!!!

I dont think it is strictly true that companies organize ALL thier personell in reverse logic.

To me it just seems to be very senior Management where the posession of some sort of business degree is valued more and hel in high regard than an Engineering degree or experience , however this is generally a British view, look at Germany and Japan where Engineers are indeed respected and head up "engineering companys".

Just look at how many British Refrigeration companies are following the likes of Tesco in thier huge expansion
overseas, i cant think of one, Hussmann, Linde, Sanyo, Carrier are all foreign with an outward view.

India is soon to have a huge retail "explosion" when their
retail trade barriers come down and foreign retailers will be allowed to invest...there literally is no Cold chain and no superstores in a Country of 1 billion people who now have the money in there pocket...any British Refrigeration company's going to take the risk...i doubt it, the Americans, Japanese and German Refrigeration companies will clean up.

The days of greatly respected engineering pioneers like Isambard Kingdom Brunel maybe gone and the bankers
in the City of London replaced him hence the trickling down of accountants and MBA's into engineering positions.

Running a succesful business is an art not a science, thats why you had the old generation of the likes of Mr Wathes (Wathes Refrigeration, now WR Refrigeration ), Mr Adams (NRC), Mr Trembath (Trembath Refrigeration) etc establishing and
running succesful businesses and becoming millionaires...not a business degree between them.

The other factor is accountability, if for example Sainsbury's own a percentage of the FM company that performs the service their will always be undue influence from Sainsburys be it direct or indirect and conflict of interest.

My view is that some smart ar*e Sainsbury's
accountant thought we can do this, Landscaping,
Refrigeration, lighting, shopping trolley maintenance etc
and servicing ourselves and make some money.

For accounting purposes (tax) we shall form a
seperate company put in place our man/woman and that is why you have the problems now.

The person in charge of the FM company does not have free reign to make decisions in the interests of the FM company...he/she is a psuedo Sainsbury's man/woman.

By above statements are very simplified of coarse and my own opinion.

[coolhibby1875]

I dont think it is strictly true that companies organize ALL thier personell in reverse logic.

To me it just seems to be very senior Management where the posession of some sort of business degree is valued more and hel in high regard than an Engineering degree or experience , however this is generally a British view, look at Germany and Japan where Engineers are indeed respected and head up "engineering companys".

Just look at how many British Refrigeration companies are following the likes of Tesco in thier huge expansion
overseas, i cant think of one, Hussmann, Linde, Sanyo, Carrier are all foreign with an outward view.

India is soon to have a huge retail "explosion" when their
retail trade barriers come down and foreign retailers will be allowed to invest...there literally is no Cold chain and no superstores in a Country of 1 billion people who now have the money in there pocket...any British Refrigeration company's going to take the risk...i doubt it, the Americans, Japanese and German Refrigeration companies will clean up.

The days of greatly respected engineering pioneers like Isambard Kingdom Brunel maybe gone and the bankers
in the City of London replaced him hence the trickling down of accountants and MBA's into engineering positions.

Running a succesful business is an art not a science, thats why you had the old generation of the likes of Mr Wathes (Wathes Refrigeration, now WR Refrigeration ), Mr Adams (NRC), Mr Trembath (Trembath Refrigeration) etc establishing and
running succesful businesses and becoming millionaires...not a business degree between them.

The other factor is accountability, if for example Sainsbury's own a percentage of the FM company that performs the service their will always be undue influence from Sainsburys be it direct or indirect and conflict of interest.

My view is that some smart ar*e Sainsbury's
accountant thought we can do this, Landscaping,
Refrigeration, lighting, shopping trolley maintenance etc
and servicing ourselves and make some money.

For accounting purposes (tax) we shall form a
seperate company put in place our man/woman and that is why you have the problems now.

The person in charge of the FM company does not have free reign to make decisions in the interests of the FM company...he/she is a psuedo Sainsbury's man/woman.

By above statements are very simplified of coarse and my own opinion.


i agree with a lot of your points however being a engineer does not make you a buisness man, you mention a few companies, ie, wathes, nrc and trembath though very good in thier day and yes owned by old engineers, these old engineers had to employ people to run thier companies ie, finance directors people with the degrees you say are no good, without these people your buisness will come unstuck pretty quick, the above mentioned companies ruled in a very different era we operate in today, in the old days you worked for the supermarkets direct, they called you attended and you charged what you wanted and they paid, it was as simple as that, now you deal with fm companies who are bleeding the industry dry and have the contractors right where they want them, so in theroy the fm companies are making a killing at our expense, and i can pretty much bet that the people running these fm companies are not engineers.
as long as these fm companies exisist the likes of WR, SPACE, P 1ST, CARTERS AND KB will keep cutting each others throats chasing contracts with no money in it at the expense of good engineers, these so called big companies need to take a step back and say NO we cant do things at this price, the thing is it wont happen any time soon, and as a result the workforce is becomming seriously diluted with painters and janitors who once changed a fan motor or probe and now call themselfs a engineer:confused:

[Horse-box]

Absolutely spot on brother.

[buddy]

i agree with a lot of your points however being a engineer does not make you a buisness man, you mention a few companies, ie, wathes, nrc and trembath though very good in thier day and yes owned by old engineers, these old engineers had to employ people to run thier companies ie, finance directors people with the degrees you say are no good, without these people your buisness will come unstuck pretty quick, the above mentioned companies ruled in a very different era we operate in today, in the old days you worked for the supermarkets direct, they called you attended and you charged what you wanted and they paid, it was as simple as that, now you deal with fm companies who are bleeding the industry dry and have the contractors right where they want them, so in theroy the fm companies are making a killing at our expense, and i can pretty much bet that the people running these fm companies are not engineers.
as long as these fm companies exisist the likes of WR, SPACE, P 1ST, CARTERS AND KB will keep cutting each others throats chasing contracts with no money in it at the expense of good engineers, these so called big companies need to take a step back and say NO we cant do things at this price, the thing is it wont happen any time soon, and as a result the workforce is becomming seriously diluted with painters and janitors who once changed a fan motor or probe and now call themselfs a engineer:confused:

I Couldnt agree with you more, however I didnt say finance directors etc are no good as they are absolutely essential as key personell to run a successfull business.

We both agree on the same thing realy, The point I was trying to make is that if YOUR particular trade/interest is as a Refrigeration Engineer your worth or value is diluted working for an FM company as you are generaly viewed as just another commodity along with janitors, In-store technicians, Painters etc....you are not a "specialist" anymore.

The managements cuplability in this is that for example if Sainsbury's own 51% of the FM company servicing thier stores they dont have the control and interest of the FM Companys business at heart, Sainsburys control that.

Obviously times move on and I have seen a generation of very good Pack Engineers leave the Supermarket sector never to return.