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Abe
29-03-2005, 05:47 PM
I had an order to fit 2 wall mounts in a bedroom
Customer calls last week and cancels.......reason, he saw an ad on tv where B & Q are selling DIY air conditioning heat pumps for £499.00
He says hes going to have a go.

So be it and good luck to him I says.

I think that hopefully B&Q will sell hundreds of these things, far from being worried I think some work will come to me to sort out shoddy installs.

Who knows?

Just wondering what others think

willies boy
29-03-2005, 06:38 PM
Absolutly spot on!Let the good times roll,especially when they make such a pigs ear that its condemned. :D

chemi-cool
29-03-2005, 06:45 PM
Hi Abe,

"If you cant beat them, join them"

Why not join forces with B & Q?
It will help them sell more if costumers will know that a professional installer + warranty bhind the sale, and you can cut your share.

Chemi :)

terrie73
29-03-2005, 08:08 PM
i say its goodbye to the split market

rbartlett
29-03-2005, 08:58 PM
i say its goodbye to the split market

you say goodbye and i say hello. hello! hello!..i don't know why you say goodbye i say hello..heelloo,hheylloo heeeyyyllloooo.....( fade..)

cheers

richard

eggs
29-03-2005, 09:10 PM
the thing that concerns me is this.
" Ring ring."

"hello ABC airconditioning, can i help you please?"

"i hope so, you see, i have just installed this air conditioning thing from b&q, and it doesnt work, can you come and have a look please?"

you arrive at the site and the "customer" has lost the gas and somehow connected the wiring up wrong.

Now for this, i want my minimum callout charge for a non-contract customer, labour/standing time while the thing is vaccing out and the cost of say 1/2kg of 410 plus the profit margin we all need to survive.

if you reckon this up in your head, you will see, we will be the next set of tadesmen to be featured on "rouge traders" and such like.

My stand on the topic is this, if anybody rings me with a problem install.
"get in contact with b&q"

If anybody calls for a quote for install only, i will offer them a Hitachi, m series or an LG with 3 years warranty, for not much more than they would be paying to B&Q for their kit.

One more thought, if a pre-charged, flexible 410 expansion line in heating mode bust, and you have say 500psi of very hot gas scalding peoples faces. who is liable? the installer or B&Q.
not a nice thought, i know, but one that needs addressing.

cheers

eggs

frank
29-03-2005, 09:25 PM
offering to install Air Force Air Conditioning for a fixed fee of say £200.00.

Don't make it too cheap Marc - make 'em pay bigtime ;)

terrie73
29-03-2005, 10:18 PM
in 5 years 85% of the split game will have gone to the dogs
it will be like shopping for a new Television or whitegoods the only thing i ask myself is how are DIY B&Q customers going to get round the wiring up to a consumer board with the new regs

frank
30-03-2005, 02:51 AM
Frank, are you kidding? I'm not sure if you're serious or not. I mean £200.00 for 30 to 60 mins on site plus say 60mins travel?

I'm serious Marc.

If you post £200 on your web site it will be a bench mark for any visitors to your site to use as a tool against anyone of us that could be quoting for an install.

I can just hear them now
"How much! On Fridgetech web site they can fit it for £200"

"Yes my dear but they haven't been out to see this job and your pipework is nearer 25ft instead of the 4ft supplied with the unit because you want the fan coil fitted on the wall that joins your neighbour and your mains fuse box is in the shed at the bottom of the lane!"

£200 just makes for hard work.

Consider that you visit a customer who rang asking you to fit his B&Q unit because he has had a go and f**ked it up. You go and spend time remaking flares 'caus he's overtightened and ruined them, then the price of nitrogen, fridge gas, vac'ing time etc. and then it still won't run because of, say, he's "fixed" the wiring because when he fitted it it wouldn't start (could have been the guard timer etc) or it's just broke since leaving the factory - do you then expect to just walk away with his £200 - I don't think so. Don't forget that we would be dealing with Joe Public - the most awkward animal on earth! :eek: He won't part with the cash until it's working 'cause that's why he's got you out there - to fix it.

"I thought that you would at least put the pipework inside some nice trunking"

Yeah right

frank
30-03-2005, 11:31 AM
This came in today's post

Karl Hofmann
30-03-2005, 11:57 AM
I see the issue with B&Q and these Air Force units as an opportunity. Last year I fitted around 25 customer supplied B&Q gas fires. Nearly every first contact from the customer started off with the question "How much would you charge to fit a gas fire mate?" I quote a fixed "core" charge based on the fact that I assume that the gas supply is adequate and reasonably close, the flue is adequate and in good condition and there is no brickwork required to make good, I always state that the price is subject to survey. If for any reason the fire is not suitable or damaged the customer is charged my call out fee and instructed to call me when they have provided the correct safe equipment, they chose the fire and therefore they should know what they are doing. The shortfalls of cheap gas fires are also pointed out to them, IE poor heating efficiency (Many fires are for decoration only) and the need for a fire guard to protect children from the very steeply stacked coals that fall out very easily.

I see no reason why we cannot do the same with plug and play aircon units, afterall how many rooms in your house are suitable for a back to back install, with only 4 metres to play with, and when it comes to connecting to the power supply, how many 13 amp sockets are there handy at ceiling level?, so on your survey when the final cost of installation, poor options for location and unit limitations (Poor quality, efficiency etc) are factored in, perhaps one can mention a very stylish Samsung, LG, Toshiba or Daikin inverter. For not much more, they can have EXACTLY what they want.

For the domestic market, we must bear in mind that we are Tradesmen, and should charge an acceptable Tradesman rate, otherwise we will scare off customers right in to the hands of Mr B and Mr Q

Abe
30-03-2005, 08:51 PM
To be quite honest I for one would not be keen to pocket a lousy 200 quid to install an air con...........

I can appreciate where Marc is coming from if it is a bog straightforward install , back to back, you go in and out in 2 hours.

In reality, things are very different, I insist on a site visit for a start which has cost implications.

Then the electrics, would have to have Part p certified. This is a household we are working in and come survey time, or in event of a fire, if it came back to the air conditioning company...........it wont be worth it risking my business not to have an electrician provide the power, any flak, he can get it, not I

I believe these units do not have flares...........rather, couplers.

But as my good freind Chem says..........get your name on the B & Q list..................DIY's are a strange lot..........they can do most things..............air conditioning................No ways.

I have known even plumbers to " shirk" away from fridge or air conditioning work.

So, yes............B & Q are doing a fantastic job advertising, bringing awareness for us.......... but they also doing us a disservice, by making out that the benchmark for an air conditioner is 499,00 pounds................when it is really more like a 1000 pounds installed, maybe a litlle more if you have to think about pumps and trunking and getting additional labour, awkward runs, lifting floorboards..........all that stuff

What if a unit fails installed by a DIY'er. Does he take the whole thing back to B & Q ????

Theres also another element to this whole matter..........I have heard that other players like Samsung and LG are also thinking of marketing via the big stores.............

I read Franks attachment..........I am pleased the powers to be in our industry are raising the matter elsewhere.

And to think all these years the govt went on about teaching us how not vent gases into the atmosphere, and to reclaim, blah blah.......

Each Unit sold by B& Q should have a warning label on it..........

" To be installed only by a proper qualified technician"

frank
30-03-2005, 09:44 PM
Hell, advertise that you'll install for £50.00 a unit... Lol

We'll do it for FREE :D

Now that should get us LOTS of customers (but maybe not the right kind) :p

freezy
02-04-2005, 10:50 AM
Its going to be an amusing sight when you see a trail of people in the B & Q returns queue with splits in their arms crying "it dont work" due to a bad installation. I think B & Q will soon 'knock this one on the head'.

rbartlett
02-04-2005, 11:38 AM
personally I think there a bit of over reaction here and elsewhere

I remember lazing round a pool in Thailand a few years ago when i noticed the 'gardener' re-gassing the air conditioning (even had a vac pump!!) gassed up the split then went back to raking the lawn...

if these guy's can do it i would be suprised if an average UK guy couldn't.

all these 'explosion and injuries' are just not going to happen..even with it running a max pressure and a pipe burst -what happens? the gas escapes..that's all..the chances of anyone hurting themselves is really remote.

our industry has a pretty good safety record and whilst you can say "yes but we are all trained" -
well no we are NOT all trained and those most highly trained tend to operate less safely because of the familarity aspect.

fitting splits is easy. fitting it properly to a high standard using the right tools and process week in week out and not falling into the trap above is the hard bit.

Accidents are rare and tend to fall into 'falling off ladders' type injuries -ie non a/c specific

rather than air conditioning pipe burst and blew eye out type -a/c specific

the average joe will crash it in and i would expect 99% will do 'okay' it'll look rough but again some of the 'professional' work is dog rough too !!

however until corgi type registration is brought in this is the future..

cheers

richard

Karl Hofmann
02-04-2005, 11:23 PM
The problems that I expect to see will be kinked refrigerant pipes, condensate pipes thay dont quite run down hill, self sealing connectors that don't, undersizing in conservatories and extension leads used as a power supply. Plenty people will buy these things, but there are even more people who are not DIY orientated, and need the services of a freindly and confident engineer who will produce a tidy job with good quality equipment but will not rip the customer off. This type of work will never make us rich, but will ensure a good living

Karl Hofmann
06-04-2005, 06:09 PM
LOL from his one man forum, it looks like even Mr Millennium is rattled my B&Q. Ho Hum, I guess that they cant be all bad then :D

andrewuk
06-04-2005, 10:24 PM
This is the beginings of the domestic a/c market in a year or two when all the filters are dirty condensers are all blocked up they need repairs e.t.c thats where we will start to make money ,some people will diy install others will do it and mess it up and have to pay us to fix it ,others will pay for lg,carrier e.t.c .but for the bigger a/c companies there will for them be small margins in it then they will focus on the bigger sized equipment,small companies with low over heads will make money on the smaller stuff .

the domestic market is big volumes lower margins, keep your over heads down you can get in and make a bit of money.

Mr. Millennium
06-04-2005, 10:32 PM
Not at all Karl, the enquiries we have had from B&Q customers in the past few weeks have lead to many sales. I thought I would post a few points highlighted by a recent Daikin post. I think B&Q will do the industry a favour by promoting air conditioning as a residential option not reserved to just the wealthy!

Karl Hofmann
07-04-2005, 12:02 AM
Indeed, I too see this as a great opportunity for my future and for getting comfort coolers in to domestic living rooms. As with cars, once folk have cooling, they just wont want to be without it. The B&Q unit may be their first unit, but their second will be a good quality unit from a tradesman. I have made a consious decision not to go the cheap nicky no name road, that is already well catered for, the folk who have these units will be my customers in two or three years time.

As far as the customer is concerned, the nice thing about B&Q is that you can walk in, point to the unit that you want, slap down your credit card, and have the unit delivered. No pushy salesman, no sneering trade counter staff and no geezer in a van who cant even show up on the right day. Best of all for the customer, is if the thing breaks within warranty or even if they break it, they can pull it off the wall, and take it back to B&Q, slap it on the counter and say it's buggered and B&Q replace it without question, would you do that?

I personally have never regarded cooling as a luxury for the wealthy, some of my customers are night workers who struggle to sleep on Summer days or hay fever sufferers. A small tradesman can install a good quality unit for not much more than an DIY kit and still make a good living.

All this brings me to the question, when are you going to allow us lot on to your forum? Surly allowing qualified engineers of the calibre found on this forum to share their knowlage can only enhance your profile.

Mr. Millennium
07-04-2005, 08:51 AM
It is actually B&Q's second attempt at quick connect air conditioning, the first attempt went a tad wrong I believe. As for the warranty, yes we would replace it, the only difference being that in the unlikely event of a failure, one of our engineers would go to site and fix the problem or replace without a quibble.

I allowed people from here on the forum, and it was mis treated.

If someone was to say you are a " s**t " engineer without seeing your work you would feel slightly annoyed. That is what " qualified " engineers are doing on that forum.

In fact one engineer who posted had only been doing the job for a month! Some feel they are qualified from having a user account on here alone.

Karl Hofmann
07-04-2005, 10:20 AM
Many keen DIYers are capable of doing a better and more professional work than professionals, however there is a fair number of folk to whom a little knowlage is dangerous. I have had a customer who tried to get my quote down by suggesting that I use the copper that he had in his garage (Yep, central heating pipe) Had this guy had access to his own fit yourself kit, he would have happily made this pipe fit the application, perhaps with the aid of a bit of plumbers solder. I'm not sure that I did ever really convince him of the differences. DIYers also do not consider the positioning of their units in the same way that an engineer would, especially with regard to gas fires, a poorly sited wall mount facing directly opposite an open gas fire is a potentially lethal combination.

You must understand, that from the point of many engineers the sale of coolers direct to the public is not good, and to that end you are seen as the enemy, I do not approve of the sale of units to non trade customers, and we will take you to task over many issues, you should have anticipated this when you decided to open a public forum, you've got to take the good with the bad, and address valid criticism

Mr. Millennium
07-04-2005, 10:39 AM
Hi Karl,

I can imagine that quite a few DIY'ers would need more guidance than slapping down their card in B&Q. Most however, I would say 95% of people are capable. Like you say if the installation does not come inside the pipe run then an engineer is required ( a certified engineer ). So for some circumstances it would be more cost effective to employ an engineer from start to finish.

As for selling to the end user, Daikin UK at Man. sell direct to the customer at trade price. Ring them and pose as an end user, you will find you can buy one with a credit card if the value is below £ 1000.00 no mention of warranty or certification of refrigerant handling, engineer installing etc.

So they must be the enemy also?

As for the forum, it was intended as a question and answer site rather than a discussion board for engineers, that is why this site is here.

Argus
07-04-2005, 05:38 PM
The stuff is obviously badged and made in China or somewhere else.

Anybody know who manufacturers it?

What about spares? There is an obligation placed on the importer to keep parts available.

There is in fact more than one way to skin a cat. Some of this foreign stuff dumped in the UK still it has to be street legal in terms of CE marking, have the correct Declarations of Conformity freely available for inspection etc. Few of them do, or would stand up to scrutiny.......

It may be that the kit is the best available, terriffic quality and the DIY installers posess skills that would put us to shame....

Oooops! sorry about that, a pig just flew through the window.
________
one vaporizer reviews (http://vaporizer.org/reviews/vapir-air-one/)

Mr. Millennium
07-04-2005, 08:31 PM
I hope you find your pig.

Yes CE marked, EU declaration of conformity obtained and verified as required by customs in the UK.

It is also a requirement for most registered importers to have a 5% margin of EVERY spare part per order, or provision to supply said parts for 10 years after sales.

We have never suggested that it was the best, that would be incorrect.

It is fantastic quality with a proven reliability record.

The DIY installs that I have seen have been better than a lot of " professional " installations. Maybe because they care about the installation more due to being their own property.

I am sure the response to this post will be yet another " DIY people are stupid and need our engineering skills " scenario.

Stop for one minute to climb out of your backside and understand that not all DIY'ers are going to run the refrigerant through garden hose and mount a wall unit on the ceiling and wonder why it leaks!

Abe
07-04-2005, 09:27 PM
I havent seen Mr Milleniums site as yet, maybe I will over the course over the next few days if I can get a minute to spare

I get the feeling theres a lot of animosity ( maybe thats too harsh a word to use ) towards his marketing strategy aimed towards assisting the DIY'er to buy and install air conditioning.

Whilst I can understand the " protectionism" that many engineers will want to seek to protect their interests, to be fair give the guy a break.

To my knowledge I dont believe he is committing an offence of any sort, and in the interest of laisser faire, free market, capitalism, etc he is just someone wanting to earn a living.

If B & Q say you can do it, so can he !!

Good day

Mr. Millennium
07-04-2005, 10:16 PM
I havent seen Mr Milleniums site as yet, maybe I will over the course over the next few days if I can get a minute to spare

I get the feeling theres a lot of animosity ( maybe thats too harsh a word to use ) towards his marketing strategy aimed towards assisting the DIY'er to buy and install air conditioning.

Whilst I can understand the " protectionism" that many engineers will want to seek to protect their interests, to be fair give the guy a break.

To my knowledge I dont believe he is committing an offence of any sort, and in the interest of laisser faire, free market, capitalism, etc he is just someone wanting to earn a living.

If B & Q say you can do it, so can he !!

Good day

Thank you Aiyub,

As a company we do not wish to get into a T*t for tat situation. Many of the contracts we are offered are simply too large for a small company to manage. These are always passed on to the distributors to select an appropriate company in the contract vicinity.

I can understand the ill feeling, I was an engineer on the road up until 2 years ago!

I wish to apologise for my post above, it was not very constructive. I also wish to offer my thanks to R bartlett for informing me of the Part P regulations which are now stated clearly with each system and apologise for any resentment shown towards his earlier posts aimed to highlight this.

Cheers

chillyhamster
07-04-2005, 10:33 PM
Hi all, just reading this thread, looked at Mr. Millennium's web site.....thought that new R22 equipment was not allowed to be installed. 2 fujitsu units posted as R22...old stock by any chance.

chillyhamster
08-04-2005, 04:53 PM
Who mentioned tony b.liar

Karl Hofmann
08-04-2005, 05:26 PM
Abe,

I think that there was a fair bit of animosity towards Millenniums marketing strategy. From my part it is the knowlage that when a DIYer cannot make a standard piece of equipment fit as he wants it, he will try to adapt it, I see it regularly.
It's not rocket science to stick a unit on the wall level, poke a bundle of pipes and wires through a hole in the wall and connect up, you simply read the instructions. But believe me, there are a minority of folk out there who always have ideas to improve or tailor what they have to meet their exact requirements with heath robinson modifications

My mind has been laid to rest regarding the supply of spares, which can also be an issue, and I am glad that Mr Millennium has come forward to address our concerns rather than slating us on his one man show ;)

Regarding Daikin selling to the public at trade prices (Though I could never understand the bizzare British idea of trade and retail prices.) If the cap fits............

Abe
08-04-2005, 05:46 PM
Thx Karl, that was very fair, Im glad u think the same.

All fair in love and war I say, Im not one for saying the grapes were sour anyway..........

Im intrigued what the pictures of a pig and and a monkey have to do with this thread?

Marc, kindly enlighten us.

Abe
08-04-2005, 10:43 PM
Well, as they say.............You are what you eat !!

Karl Hofmann
09-04-2005, 08:15 AM
Hmm,

Well I thought that the pig was the odd one out, because the Gorilla and the air conditioner would hurt if dropped on you from a seventh floor window but everyone knows that pigs can fly.

Karl Hofmann
09-04-2005, 08:23 AM
Abe,

I can spend my life whinging about B&Q and Mr M, but it wont get me anywhere. I have vented my spleen, time to get on with what we have got, and make things work for me :)

rbartlett
09-04-2005, 09:07 AM
I thought the last one was marc till I realised he never smiles...

cheers

richard

Abe
09-04-2005, 09:55 AM
Well, what does does Tesco's stock in your part of the world then? Sloth and chihuahua :) ??

I dont shop at Tesco
and are u insuanating something ?
saying sloth and a little barking dog?

chemi-cool
09-04-2005, 12:02 PM
Ididn't know this

It looks like you have a lot to learn :D

http://www.pcworld.com/downloads/file_description/0,fid,7545,00.asp

Chemi :)

Abe
10-04-2005, 07:14 PM
Abe,

I can spend my life whinging about B&Q and Mr M, but it wont get me anywhere. I have vented my spleen, time to get on with what we have got, and make things work for me :)

Karl,

Way to go mate. Live and let live
No one of us is better then anyone else.
We all strive for the same things in life.
Let us focus on providing for ourselves first and foremost.

Abe