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evapcoil1
07-05-2010, 06:58 AM
Hi Guys
Can anyone give me some tips and/or average values on insulation test for cold rooms, as in our last test , a freezer cold room "lost" 28C in 12hrs (from -25 to 3) :rolleyes: , and to me ,this is unacceptable but I don't have any parameter to argue on this.

Thank You very much in advance.

Evapcoil

chemi-cool
07-05-2010, 11:31 AM
I never heard of insulation field test. You should get the manufacturer Test papers and MSDS.

But the problem with temp loss in cold stores is usually the result of unprofessionally erecting, uninsulated floor. unsealed plates connections etc.

Check DIN 52612
http://www.techstreet.com/cgi-bin/detail?doc_no=DIN%7C52612_1&product_id=1052102

evapcoil1
07-05-2010, 11:57 AM
Tks Chemi-cool
That's exactly my point, I know for sure that it has been erected poorly but I don't have any technical data to nail them!!!!
Any other info it's still greatly appreciated, also personal criteria that I can compare with mine, my actual field is ships, We are building a cruise ship, but when I was working on land , it was acceptable an average of one celsius every hour for the negative cold rooms.

chemi-cool
07-05-2010, 01:03 PM
If there is space, you can cover it with 50mm panels and fill the gap with liquid polyurethane, it may do wonders to poor insulation.

evapcoil1
07-05-2010, 03:22 PM
Unfortunately we have no space ,and also there is a design problem with too many small panels (so junctions and gaps) , We simply have to keep it like this but I would like to get some facts to nail them on the contract, and issue a really good defect so they don't get away with it...
At the end ,We pay them with good money , not defective ones....

chemi-cool
07-05-2010, 03:57 PM
You can on the inside though.

Never pay before you get the merchandise.

evapcoil1
07-05-2010, 04:31 PM
we cannot touch the inside as the cold rooms need to comply with the USPH standards and they need to be as for company specs and measurements...
It's quite a messy situation, We will have to keep them as they are but I would like to fight them on paper as We have another ship coming to construction next August ,so I don't want to repeat the same mistake again....

evapcoil1
08-05-2010, 01:35 PM
Hi fellow colleagues
Any other suggestion?? If anybody else can give me any other info would be great....
TY....

nike123
08-05-2010, 04:35 PM
Infrared camera could make measurements on surface temperatures and you could compare that footage with properly executed one with same internal and external conditions.
Camera could be rented.

evapcoil1
09-05-2010, 12:45 AM
Thank you nike, I didn't thought about it....
The shipyard have a TIC but I can only scan the inside of the rooms as the outside is unaccessible....
Thanks anyway...
This thread is always valid....
Any other suggestion or information is more than welcome...
I would really need some numbers that I can work on....
Like average temperature rise used on the field...
Anyway , thanks a lot to everybody that read this and help me...

nike123
09-05-2010, 07:41 AM
TIC will show you bad joints and insulation even from inside. Those places will be different temperatures and clearly visible. You only need something done right to compare with bad job.

evapcoil1
09-05-2010, 07:49 PM
I'll do and i'll let you know how it went...

nike123
09-05-2010, 10:05 PM
Good, we love to have feedback.;)

al
09-05-2010, 10:22 PM
What ambient temperature did they use to design the room, what thickness of panels and how are the joints sealed, are the panels securely locked?

Nikes idea of the camera would pinpoint obvious poor construction which would help your argument.

alec

evapcoil1
10-05-2010, 12:23 AM
Al, I'll try to post some pics....

evapcoil1
10-05-2010, 07:37 AM
Hi All
I'm very thankfull for all the practical advices but I need more burocratic (numbers to work on) advices, as at this point I need to fight this people on paper more than on the field as I had been giving them suggestion ,while they were building the cold rooms, for the past three - four months..... But they didn't listen :mad:

evapcoil1
10-05-2010, 03:38 PM
Hi Guys
Here some pics of the cold rooms installation....
No comments needed....
:cool:

nike123
10-05-2010, 04:04 PM
Hi Guys
Here some pics of the cold rooms installation....
No comments needed....
:cool:
It looks like this is their firs time assembly of cooldroom!:eek:
What is design temperature there?
Who is panel manufacturer?
Is this for fish?

chemi-cool
10-05-2010, 04:23 PM
In one of the pictures there is a gap between the wall and the cieling.....:eek:

the only thing I can suggest is take it apart and rebuild it properly.

One of the worst jobs I have ever seen.

al
10-05-2010, 07:18 PM
evap

you don't need paper to prove that the installation is poor, any competent engineer could confirm that, there is no way that room will work in a high ambient, the basic starting point for any room is tight installation with good vapour and thermal seals. Any air ingress will cause problems.

alec

evapcoil1
10-05-2010, 07:49 PM
Hi Guys, this pics are during the installation, these "gentlemen" :p were very good at hide these defects under some stainless steel profiles...
Tomorrow I'll post some pics of the final product ( but I know what's underneath it)....
Unfortunately there is another inspector that check the building ,I only have to test them........ :mad: so I can't say anything during the construction.... Quite a complicated situation....

evapcoil1
12-05-2010, 12:03 PM
I cannot post more pictures!!!! mmmmppppfffff.....:confused:

chemi-cool
12-05-2010, 04:18 PM
Go to: tinypic.com

No www

You will find your way from there.

evapcoil1
14-05-2010, 06:53 AM
Hi Guys
I'm still trying to fix my pics problem , but I want to give3 You some updates, I used the TIC and , surprise surprise, pointing at the wall panels , it was reading -16 / -18 , aiming at the panel's joints (especially between walls and ceiling ) , the TIC reading was -4 / -2 , sometimes even 0......
I hope I'll be able to post some pics soon so You can realize what very good job they did covering up their tracks...

nike123
14-05-2010, 07:03 AM
Hi Guys
I'm still trying to fix my pics problem , but I want to give3 You some updates, I used the TIC and , surprise surprise, pointing at the wall panels , it was reading -16 / -18 , aiming at the panel's joints (especially between walls and ceiling ) , the TIC reading was -4 / -2 , sometimes even 0......
I hope I'll be able to post some pics soon so You can realize what very good job they did covering up their tracks...


Go here (http://tinypic.com/) and register. Upload your picture in that service and post your link to pictures here.

hannesvr
02-06-2010, 08:23 AM
Hi All
I'm very thankfull for all the practical advices but I need more burocratic (numbers to work on) advices, as at this point I need to fight this people on paper more than on the field as I had been giving them suggestion ,while they were building the cold rooms, for the past three - four months..... But they didn't listen :mad:
pass me your e-mail add and i can give you spec on materials. my e-mail is hannes.vanrooyen@gmail.com

evapcoil
20-09-2010, 08:46 AM
Hi Guys , sorry for the delay but I join the ship in July and I wasn't checking my RE account for a while, now I can upload the pictures... Here the "final product".... Weren't they artists hiding the defects? ;) If I wouldn't know what's below that , I would say that they are good cold rooms.... hahaha

Peter_1
22-09-2010, 08:37 PM
Just joined this thread, once finished, it looks all very nice.
I once had a similar judicial case for the Belgium Court.
You can use the IR scanner like Nike proposed.
But you have your U or R- value of the panels whatever you name it.
You can calculate what the overall thermal resistance should (!) be of the whole coldroom.
Install some temperature loggers inside the empty room and also outside it.
You run it down to -20C and switch off all the equipment an monitors outside temperature and inside temperature increase. Or you can heat it up to 50C or 60C with the defrost heaters and make the exercise the other way.
The case we had was for a -80C room and we even saw big differences when switching on or off the door heaters.
But as some other posters said, you don't need measurements if you see these pictures. Take the install instructions of the panels and you will find there for sure that the panels must be installed leakfree cold-bridge-free with surely no gaps or whatsoever.

If it was in our country, you immediately must react with an official letter (registered?) and state in that all the faults and also make already all the necessary restrictions (payment will be made only after correcting all the seen and hidden faults, some or not all the faults are not stated yet in the letter, the job will not be accepted, the job must be finished within a certain time gap,.... )

evapcoil
25-09-2010, 07:26 AM
Hi Everybody
I wish i was working on land and not building ships..... Here everything is much more complicated with a lot of different companies involved and We deal with the shipyard ,who then deal with the subcontractors, then there is the problem that our "glorious leaders" don't want to admit their mistakes ,so if You scream to loud , You are just a problem for them , not the solution to the problem... :rolleyes:
I am looking for a ISO standard , a regulation or something similar that can back up my allegation but I cannot find anything so the third ship will be in the same condition as the sisters....

Anyway ,let's just look at the bright side of the day , today OVERNIGHT IN AMSTERDAM!!!! Yeahhh BABY!!!! :D