How many are actually 'qualified' to work on AC units (UK)??

[Mr Memory]

I work in technical support department for an AC manufacturer in the UK. When we get technical calls it amazes us how poor (in general) the 'engineers' on site trying to fix the problems are. I'm not suggesting for a moment that it is always entirely their fault, in many cases their employers just cannot be bothered to get them fully trained. However it does make us wonder what the percentage of 'qualified' engineers is compared to those who just decided to get into the industry because 'the money is better' than what they did before. I regularly take calls where the 'engineer' has not even bothered to remove the covers on the unit before calling us for assistance!! And if they do actually get to that stage, half of them don't know what they are looking at anyway.

Being as I come across this poor level of service engineer almost on a day to day basis, I wondered how any of you perceives the state of our industry in this regard, particularly if you work in technical support...?

Additionally I just love the way the equipment carrying the manufacturers' badge always seems to get the blame for the service engineer's incompetence!

[multisync]

The manufacturers are to blame.!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Basically they came into a closed market and said "hey forget all that brazing s.h.i.t: use flares. Ours also come with fault diagnosis and are precharged. Why even a plumber, electrician can fit them..."

So they have systematically deskilled the market in persuit of market share and you have the cheek to blame us..!

Why not ask Uncle Neil to stop importing kit which has flares and is pre charged as a starter. Once that has been addressed then we can up-skill again...

The fault lies behind the glass partitioning in the middle of your office.

[cadillackid]

I say the issue is part and part...

HVAC equipment like anything else is going more and more complex and electronic by the day..

the service techs need to also go more and more electronic as well and many just arent.. I still see service guys that charge systems till "suction line is cold.. must be full" method...
or that just tighten a flare till "ok that seems tight should do it.. rather than torque it"...

an error code pops up on a unit? "the board is bad.. one of these boards.. oh ill just get the customer to buy all new boards thatll fix it"...

now to be fair the manufacturers are not very good about providing in depth technical information to truly dig into an issue.. mitsi being the exception their tech manuals are pretty good... and daikin is good if you can get them.. although daikin is not super common in the USA so there are only a few who work on it here... its mainly in large commercial environments here...

manufacturers should also start putting Live-data diagnostic outputs on equipment as well... it does me of little good to see "E-3" show up on a display for flash on an LED bank and the response is "indoor fan speed fault"...

I want to see Live! data.. temp sensor data, compressor frequency data, currents, voltages etc that the boards "think" they are seeing.. then I can compare it to the real data taken...

if the board says the indoor thermistor is 78 degrees yet im measuring 65.. I can bet it might be suspect.. but when I have no idea what the system is "thinking in its own mind" ive got hard time to catch the fault...

HVAC systems are quickly becoming as complex as automobiles.. and the automobile service techs have the OBD-2 Live data parameters at their disposal.. so far most manufacturers of HVAC kit dont provide anything close to that...

and 2 days of manufacturer training class in a glass room in front of a projector screen is only enough to make the average service tech dangerous around some of this new kit...

so as a tech support rep on the end of a phone bank.. yes I would expect to get some pretty dumb questions esp if it is new high tech kit..

the days of sitting on an upside down 5 gallon bucket with a set of gauges and your finger wrapped around the suction line are Long gone....
-Christopher

[Mr Memory]

The manufacturers are to blame.!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Basically they came into a closed market and said "hey forget all that brazing s.h.i.t: use flares. Ours also come with fault diagnosis and are precharged. Why even a plumber, electrician can fit them..."

So they have systematically deskilled the market in persuit of market share and you have the cheek to blame us..!

Why not ask Uncle Neil to stop importing kit which has flares and is pre charged as a starter. Once that has been addressed then we can up-skill again...

The fault lies behind the glass partitioning in the middle of your office.
Manufacturers are to blame for rubbish service engineers??? What a strange concept... Nothing to do with mobile phones then? When I was an apprentice I used to carry books, books, and more books when I went to site (before e-books on laptops), and when mobile phones were eventually dished out I never used it unless I was absolutely and completely stuck - I was embarrassed to call the office if I'd overlooked something simple, and to be honest got more satisfaction resolving the issue myself (sad but true). :)

By the way who is 'Uncle Neil', and FYI we don't have glass partitions. I think you are confusing me with someone else...

[Gary]

Let's imagine that we are teaching someone to swim.

We sit them down in a classroom and teach them all of the chemical and physical properties of water.

We then throw them into the pool and wonder why they can't swim.

Obviously it is their fault. They must have slept through all the lectures.

It never occurs to anyone that we are not teaching them what they need to know in order to accomplish the task.

[mad fridgie]

First point I would to like to make, it all about money, lowest costs, highest margins. Nowadays we do not have proper apprentships, you employ a young lad or lass, straight away they are expected to undertakes work that makes a profit, not compared to the past where a trainee was more as an observer and a goffer for those training them. It seems to me that all seemed to be trained on the specifics of certain machines, without understanding any of the very basic fundementals of the refrigeration process. For example, a system is short of refrigerant, they may fix leak, they do add refrigerant to the manufactures charge, now ask them to charge a system that does not have a specific charge, or why the manufactures have specific charge, they throw their hands in the air. They just do not understand the very basics.
I have been on many equipment training courses, or should they be called sales seminars with a bit of technical.
As i getting older I can not remember what P3 or D2, bla bla means, so you have to ring your supplier, i also agree most system should give real time information, not codes or flashing lights, this would help so many actually understand the systems

[sedgy]

sorry gents , but I see it all differently on the contenant the manufacturers started selling splits over the counter, so , jo public bought them, + fitted them no psi test , no vac pump, blow through, job done< excuse the pun < so now they are selling all over the world, the demise of more skills, its the manufactorers who are killing your trade

[multisync]

Manufacturers are to blame for rubbish service engineers??? What a strange concept...

Not when read in context. If the manufacturers stopped giving support to untrained engineers or the salesmen were stopped from selling to every tom **** and harry then maybe just maybe you have a point. However the manufacturers deliberately deskilled the trade so they could sell more kit. Plain and simple, they are ultimately responsible.
..



Nothing to do with mobile phones then? When I was an apprentice I used to carry books, books, and more books when I went to site (before e-books on laptops), and when mobile phones were eventually dished out I never used it unless I was absolutely and completely stuck - I was embarrassed to call the office if I'd overlooked something simple, and to be honest got more satisfaction resolving the issue myself (sad but true). :)

Get back on the road -we need you out here , we're drowning in stupidity:confused:
Or perhaps you forget what it was really like out there as you seem to be blinded by your greatness....:cool:




By the way who is 'Uncle Neil', and FYI we don't have glass partitions. I think you are confusing me with someone else...


I assumed you were a colleague of a certain Sibby who posts here occasionally. perhaps not..my bad. The rest stands:cool:

[sneep]

I would say lots of factors contribute to the problem and many have been said here. It boils down to money.
People want cheap. They now have it. Education costs money.
About the only qualified techs you're gonna get are those interested and willing to spend their own time and money.

[Gary]

The person who designed the system is not qualified to troubleshoot and repair that system.

Prove me wrong. Set up a system in the real world. Give that system as many faults as you can think of. Turn the designer loose on that system.

Give him your phone number so he can call you and ask the same stupid questions that everyone else asks you.

Knowing how a system works is not the same thing as knowing why it doesn't work.

[cadillackid]

its the same with any trade and anything really..

it used to be you had to have special tools, trucks, and connections to pour concrete.. then they introduced Quickrete...

It used to be you had to be big and strong and multi coordinated to drive a semi truck.. then they introduced power steering and automatic transmission..

it used to be you had to be ultra-smart and memorize thousands of commands to set up a routed computer network.. then they introduced the GUI.

face it we live in a DIY society.. for sure here in the USA and I suspect all over the world...

manufacturers make HVAC kit for one reason and one reason only.. to make money..

so they sell systems to anyone who wants them.. big deal.. more people can afford to buy them.. and people will always install them themselves.. just like people will always pour their own concrete and fix their own cars and rent their own trucks to haul stuff rather than hire someone...

electricians, plumbers, framers, and the like have been dealing with this since the opening of the original "builder;s square" and "central hardware" stores in the late 70's in the USA.. the original DIY big box stores enouraging people to DIY instead of hire someone...

and yes there are those that totally screw it up.. and there are those that do a great job....

the HVAC (not so much the R since that is still mainly commercial) trade is undergoing the same "pains" if you will..

Imk surew before long in the USA you will be able to by a chinese made split in a Home-depot store.. quick connect linesets, plug it into standard electrical outlet and away-we-go....

and when it breaks the manufacturer is nowhere to be found so the end user can either fix it himself or has to hire an expensive contractor to come out and fix it or tell the user its a piece of junk and to rip it out and charge even more $$.. at which point the end user will tell the contractor to get lost...

now the manufacturer could refuse tech support to the end user.. and then end user is going to tell everyone he can (including post on forums like this and others) how crappy the kit was and never to buy it...

or the manufacturer can help the end user.. honor the warranty and such and then the user ends up happy with the kit and the manufacturer sells more...

which do you think they will do?? and with the Internet it makes it much easier for service info to be obtained by end users and also easier for end users to trash on manufacturers as well...

NOW!, that said.. as kit becomes more and more complex to work on that is where as engineers we need to really be Engineers and not just service techs.. and thats where the money is to be made in this field. troubleshooting out-of-warranty systems and having the proper certs and know-how to replace charges, leak test, etc will always be skills in demand for certain systems.... the more expensive ones...

The lesser expensive splits are literally going to be throw-aways... ever notice how you can buy a chinese split online for $1000 USD.. yet if the compressor goes its $400 for the part.. a coil? $300, a set of outdoor PCBs? $400, an indoor PCB? $200 .. the manufacturer clearly doesnt want this system serviced by anyone.. it is a throw-away...

there will become a business im sure out of people recycling and reconditioning removed splits.. taking 3 bad ones to make one good one etc and selling it for half the cost of a new one or such...

the reality is this business like many others is changing and people can whine or change with it....

-Christopher

[Gary]

the HVAC (not so much the R since that is still mainly commercial) trade is undergoing the same "pains" if you will..

Actually the R has already gone DIY, i.e. buy a fridge and plug it in the wall.



Imk surew before long in the USA you will be able to by a chinese made split in a Home-depot store.. quick connect linesets, plug it into standard electrical outlet and away-we-go....

Or the manufacturers will design a through the wall/window A/C that is quiet, efficient and attractive... buy an A/C and plug it in the wall.

[cadillackid]

its be nice to see a good through the wall A/C.. there are in fact PTAC manufacturers doing inverters now so that might become a reality....

but somehow people seem to deem through-the wall as inefficient because of cold air infiltration from the unit....

and its funny ask the average DIYer if he would rather drill a 2" hole in his house and fit the high pressure copper lines that could leak and give headaches or cut a 2 foot by 3 foot hole in the wall to fit a PTAC.. and the answer will be the 2" hole for the minisplit...

and of course all the advertising campaigns about ductless splits in the USA makes people look at them even more...

actually fully Zoned HVAC in general has more and more interested these days...

and honestly there are very few contractors capable of doing a ducted Zone system right... and even fewer DIYers that can do it...

so it makes ductless splits look real attractive to a lot of people...

-Christopher

[airefresco]

You americans are paying $1000 for cheap Chinese splits? Here and I imagine most of Europe you can walk in to pretty much any DIY place and pick one up for 200-300€ (250€ ish). If you buy enough you can get it down to about 100€ each. That´s why the trade has gone down hill. As multi-sync says, all you need to know now is how to flare, If you can do that you can fit a split. So you get guys who will pop down to the DIY place pick up a unit for 250€ charge 150€ for doing the install, thats a system installed for 400€. When it breaks down, they either do a runner, or give the manufacturer a call (if they have technical support) and the manufacturer tells them how to fix it. Whereas proper tradesmen won´t touch the stuff and stick to decent kit like Daikin, Mitsi etc, which is a lot more expensive. If you didn´t know any better what would you fit? Some guy who walks in and tells you is 400€ installed or someone who tells you it´s 1400€.

Ban flares and pre-charge systems and watch how many "installers/technicians" disappear.

[Gary]

You americans are paying $1000 for cheap Chinese splits? Here and I imagine most of Europe you can walk in to pretty much any DIY place and pick one up for 200-300€ (250€ ish). If you buy enough you can get it down to about 100€ each. That´s why the trade has gone down hill. As multi-sync says, all you need to know now is how to flare, If you can do that you can fit a split. So you get guys who will pop down to the DIY place pick up a unit for 250€ charge 150€ for doing the install, thats a system installed for 400€. When it breaks down, they either do a runner, or give the manufacturer a call (if they have technical support) and the manufacturer tells them how to fix it. Whereas proper tradesmen won´t touch the stuff and stick to decent kit like Daikin, Mitsi etc, which is a lot more expensive. If you didn´t know any better what would you fit? Some guy who walks in and tells you is 400€ installed or someone who tells you it´s 1400€.

Ban flares and pre-charge systems and watch how many "installers/technicians" disappear.

Would that include banning pre-charged fridges?

[lomb]

Even if flares were banned people would just move on to glue or quick connects like lokring. The problem is the cost of the units has dropped and will continue to drop even the premium units have to compete with chinese tcls etc.

[eggs]

I work in technical support department for an AC manufacturer in the UK. When we get technical calls it amazes us how poor (in general) the 'engineers' on site trying to fix the problems are.


By the same token, on the occasion when I have to ring technical support it amazes me how patronising some jumped up failed service engineer can be when they are issued with their Vauxhall Astra, cheap suit and a flow chart that they think is the holy grail.

"What? One of indoor units is dripping? It can't be broke, it's not on my list. I'll send you two boards and a compressor, that will fix it"

Eggs

[monkey spanners]

I think one of the skills a good technical support chap needs is to be able to taylor the advice to suit the guy on site.

I remember calling one companies tech support and he kept asking what the back pressure was, i'd never heard of the term, and he got quite an atitude which he kept even after i worked out he wanted the suction pressure.
Since going self employed i have not used this company...

Another manufacturer lost out on a 70k vrf system after they refused to supply fault codes as they hadn't supplied the equipment to us.

So to answer your oringinal question Mr Memory, do some poorly skilled engineers phone you for help? Yes.

Are you helpfull with out being patronising or up your own butt? Only you know the answer to this.

One thing to remember is todays snot nosed aprentice is tomorrows company owner, who can choose what kit they fit.


I have found LG tech support to be very good, also Fujitsu and Panasonic.
Mitsi were very poor, i would rather go sweeping streets than fit Daikin, i doubt either of these two care.
So far Samsung have had the best tech and warranty support for me.

[Latte]

define qualified ???

[multisync]

Would that include banning pre-charged fridges?


Let’s nail this puppy to the wall again (I thought it had already died )

Fridges, window rattlers, rooftop packages integral dairy decks etc are all considered hermetically sealed systems. They require no additional work to the refrigeration system in order for them to function correctly .

Splits etc do require additional work on the refrigerating circuit to make them work and that’s where the problem lies...

[taz24]

.

I have been in the trade a long time and I have seen a lot of changes.

The one change that has done most damage is the de-skilling of the industry.

Repairing by component replacement does not make an engineer, anyone can
change enough parts and fix the problem, but do they know what the problem was??

Air conditioning is a long way down the road of de-skilling the guy doing the work
and refrigeration is only a little way behind.

Call me old fashioned but the days when the fridge engineer was seen as
the saviour of the customers product has long gone.

We are now an inconvienience and an expensive comodity in a
world when labour is being cheapend.


taz

.

[Quality]

Knowing how a system works is not the same thing as knowing why it doesn't work.

valid statement

[Gary]

.

I have been in the trade a long time and I have seen a lot of changes.

The one change that has done most damage is the de-skilling of the industry.

Repairing by component replacement does not make an engineer, anyone can
change enough parts and fix the problem, but do they know what the problem was??

Air conditioning is a long way down the road of de-skilling the guy doing the work
and refrigeration is only a little way behind.

Call me old fashioned but the days when the fridge engineer was seen as
the saviour of the customers product has long gone.

We are now an inconvienience and an expensive comodity in a
world when labour is being cheapend.


taz

.

Parts changers have been around for as long as I can remember. They survive because they generate profits. And with the increasingly common practice of paying commissions for parts sold, they have flourished. This in itself deskills the industry, discouraging/punishing those who want to do it right.

[cadillackid]

with the complexity of todays systems manufacturers are even more just recommending throwing parts at a problem...

after all chances are a service tech is not going to whip out an oscilloscope, go through a board and say "oh there is a bad opto-isolater".. then whip out a Hot-air SMT station and solder a new one on.... just change the board and be done with it when the comms-link is defunct...

when a system was just pressure switches, relay banks, and solenoid valves the service tech would usually find the bad component and change it / repair it...

not anymore...

thats not de-skilling the trade.. its just plain common sense as there is not time in the day and the customer does not have the money for us to troubleshoot at PCB component level... cheaper to just change the board...
-Christopher

[pie man]

I'm an improver working mainly on refrigeration but have been thrown on to air conditioning problems recently, without Mitsubishi technical assistance I would really have struggled to find the faults and what parts were needed to put it right. They even helped me with the additional charge for a city multi...so me thinks they aint that bad! The only way I'm going to learn is working on the equipment, college is a waste of time most work is theory but no practical skills learnt!

[AbsoluteWDJ]

I work in technical support department for an AC manufacturer in the UK. When we get technical calls it amazes us how poor (in general) the 'engineers' on site trying to fix the problems are. I'm not suggesting for a moment that it is always entirely their fault, in many cases their employers just cannot be bothered to get them fully trained. However it does make us wonder what the percentage of 'qualified' engineers is compared to those who just decided to get into the industry because 'the money is better' than what they did before. I regularly take calls where the 'engineer' has not even bothered to remove the covers on the unit before calling us for assistance!! And if they do actually get to that stage, half of them don't know what they are looking at anyway.

Being as I come across this poor level of service engineer almost on a day to day basis, I wondered how any of you perceives the state of our industry in this regard, particularly if you work in technical support...?

Additionally I just love the way the equipment carrying the manufacturers' badge always seems to get the blame for the service engineer's incompetence!

I started in air conditioning....Making tea...I questioned why?..I then was given the task of drilling core holes...I questioned why?...I then was allowed to run pipes...I questioned why? Before I knew it, I was installing systems on my own and then I started to question how they work? Then I was thrown in the deep end and tried to fault find but through all my mistakes (experience) I questioned WHY! Education is a progression of familiarity and mistakes. You won't learn that at college or any one day course. I go to work still learning but with an attitude that our solutions and ideas are simply conjectural and approximate; they beg for improvement.

[Gary]

with the complexity of todays systems manufacturers are even more just recommending throwing parts at a problem...

after all chances are a service tech is not going to whip out an oscilloscope, go through a board and say "oh there is a bad opto-isolater".. then whip out a Hot-air SMT station and solder a new one on.... just change the board and be done with it when the comms-link is defunct...

when a system was just pressure switches, relay banks, and solenoid valves the service tech would usually find the bad component and change it / repair it...

not anymore...

thats not de-skilling the trade.. its just plain common sense as there is not time in the day and the customer does not have the money for us to troubleshoot at PCB component level... cheaper to just change the board...
-Christopher

That's not what we are talking about when we refer to "parts changers"... but I think you know that. :)

[brunstar]

In relation to the amount of skill out in the field i do feel that it is not the manufacturers faults at all.
In my opinion the tech should help himself, if he needs extra training then he should take the initiative and ensure that he takes the adequate training for the work he is required to do.
WE HELP OURSELVES!

The main problem within the UK is that you can do a brief 5 day course which will enable you to work with refrigerant.

That is a load of crap, if you are serious about your career you should be made to do the full refrigeration and airconditioning college training and specialise in the areas that you work in.

As for electrical trade within the UK Part P certification, if you want to become and electrician you should also have to do the full 3 year college course and become an electrician! this will enable you to work on anything up to 600v and then anything over that you can specialise in and get a HV ticket.

I just think it is more the legislation that is the problem allowing short courses to be carried out to give qualifications as this is clearly not skilling the trade up enough, hence the lack in knowledge!

As for the pre charged equipment this is a good idea as most of these people are only half trained, I.E and have no idea how to handle refrigerants or the characteristics of them.

If more units were not pre charged i do think it would be a big problem for manufacturers as that is the first thing that in experienced trades people can not get right.

In short WE HELP OURSELVES! NO BODY ELSE IS TO BLAME FOR ONE NOT BEING SKILLED ENOUGH!

Enough ranting and raving now!

[Makeit go Right]

I think that selling kit without refrigerant inside would be sensible, from a pollution aspect (F-Gas Regs etc), as an engineer then needs to be qualified to buy the refrigerant from distributors, which should suppress the non-trained.

But for tech support, that is the job you are paid for. Your employer wants you to explain things to anyone who is caring for your installed kit in the field. The better you explain things, the longer the kit runs (I guess) and that should get your manufacturer a better reputation (=more sales and more pay for you). If you have a beef about the job description it needs taking up with your bosses, not biffing the ones that are caring for your installed kit in the field.

[udarrell]

I have a different take on this issue & do not blame PER-SE the H-VAC company engineers, including the poster of this thread.

I do blame the mfg'ers & HVAC/R Contractors for not providing proper training for their future service techs.

I have witnessed since the mid-1970's in the USA some terrible service work performance! Too large a number are NOT qualified to work on HVAC/R equipment.

I have a lot of web pages that get a ton of traffic due to those willing to gain some insight into why the system doesn't work, or perform properly. - udarrell

[Gary]

In relation to the amount of skill out in the field i do feel that it is not the manufacturers faults at all.
In my opinion the tech should help himself, if he needs extra training then he should take the initiative and ensure that he takes the adequate training for the work he is required to do.
WE HELP OURSELVES!

The main problem within the UK is that you can do a brief 5 day course which will enable you to work with refrigerant.

That is a load of crap, if you are serious about your career you should be made to do the full refrigeration and airconditioning college training and specialise in the areas that you work in.


I would be willing to bet that a high percentage of the incompetent people the OP is complaining about have gone through "the full refrigeration and airconditioning college training" that you are referring to.

[nike123]

with the complexity of todays systems manufacturers are even more just recommending throwing parts at a problem...

after all chances are a service tech is not going to whip out an oscilloscope, go through a board and say "oh there is a bad opto-isolater".. then whip out a Hot-air SMT station and solder a new one on.... just change the board and be done with it when the comms-link is defunct...

when a system was just pressure switches, relay banks, and solenoid valves the service tech would usually find the bad component and change it / repair it...

not anymore...

thats not de-skilling the trade.. its just plain common sense as there is not time in the day and the customer does not have the money for us to troubleshoot at PCB component level... cheaper to just change the board...
-Christopher

I totally agree with above!

[nike123]

I would be willing to bet that a high percentage of the incompetent people the OP is complaining about have gone through "the full refrigeration and airconditioning college training" that you are referring to.

And with this, also!:D

[nike123]

Part changers we could divide in two groups. Those who know how to troubleshoot AC and find bad part and those ho change parts as troubleshooting method.
First ones are skilled ones.
We cannot afford, to us or customer, to spend time on field to troubleshoot to wrong SMD Zener diode in highly packed and integrated faulty PCB. We need to find what part is wrong and change it. If it is PCB, it is just part as any other, like filter dryer etc...
Simple economy rules!
So we need to define "qualified" for further discussion.

And, as Gary has correctly (as always) said, service technician should learn how to swim after he learned theory of refrigeration etc...
He need to learn troubleshooting procedures and techniques. That require years of experience and work with someone who is skilled enough to pass that knowledge and correct bad practice.
And that is where catch 22 is. Companies don't have will to spend time/money to such education. Result is lack of these skills.

[multisync]

In short WE HELP OURSELVES! NO BODY ELSE IS TO BLAME FOR ONE NOT BEING SKILLED ENOUGH!

Enough ranting and raving now!

Indeed that is a personal issue. However manufacturers ARE to blame for advertising in the plumbers and electricians trade mags. Thereby enticing un trained engineers (in fridge) to start installing..

Still if nothing else it's nice to see all the tech support lads coming out of the woodwork to defend manufacturers (EVEN one from LG has posted here if sources are to be believed..)

[Thermatech]

Mr Memory

I think you fill a very imprtant role in the industry & I know that manufacturers often dont reward tech support engineers enough for there efforts to support the product.

But you do tend to get calls mainly from inexperianced or just plain lazy engineers because the engineers who know what they are doing tend to fix problems without a call to tech help desk.

Service managers & service engineers have a number of basic problems to cope with because they have to look after a vast range of manufacturers equipment which has all become very complicated over the last 20 years.
So its almost imposible to fault find / trouble shoot modern equipment unless you have access to the detailed information in a 100 to 300 page service manual.

For the engineer to have a hard copy of every service manual he might need then the back of his van is going to look like a mobile library & the cost to print off all those manuals will be £££ because to save cost these days most manufacturers dont supply hard copys of service manuals. You have to down load from web site & print off at your own cost.
With fuel cost at record high is it really efficient to be carrying arround half a ton of paperwork in the van ?
Some of which you might only need a few times each year & every year or two the manufactures bring out new range of equipment & you then need yet another set of service manuals.

So some engineers get arround this problem by using a laptop computer.
But generally I find most service managers are reluctant to get laptop computers for all service engineers as it would be expensive & laptops tend to get stolen frequently.

Its not really realistic for every service engineer to go on all the manufacturers training courses if the company carries out general ac service work as you could easily spend a few weeks each year just on manufacturer training which would cost the company many ££££.
Often service managers are reluctant to send engineers on manufacturer training as the service engineers then move to another company for higher pay.

So as as its not practicle to carry around 100's of serice manuals & the service manager wont provide a laptop or send the engineers on manufacturers training then what other option has the service engineer got ?
Ring up tech help desk.

Although I am semi retired now I have been in the trade for 34 years. Many of those years working for manufactures as technical support engineer & doing a site visit every day, working with another service engineer every day. Thats thousands of site visits & probably throusands of engineers that I have worked with.
To be fair I find a lot of engineers have good level of experiance & are compitant to do the work. They just need a little bit of expert help to show them & explain why & how to do it. Then next time they are quite happy to do it themself.

Unless you happen to be a genius its simply not possible to be an expert with every manufacturers range of equipment & if you are a genius your tallent is being waisted as a humble service engineer.

One thing I have noticed over the years is that manufactures tend to employ young improver engineers to work on the tech help desk & often they then move into sales to earn more £££.
The accumulated technical knowledge the engineer has is to some extent lost & waisted following a move into sales.
Senior service engineers tend not to work on tech help desk unless they have some health problem as the pay is poor & sitting at a desk aswering the phone all day is a really thankless task.

My suggestion would be for manufacturers to provide improved pay rate for tech help desk engineers so they are more likely to stay in technical support.
Also make the job more interesting & challanging by getting the tech help desk enginners out to site every week to help engineers face to face instead of over the phone.

[cool runings]

.

In defence of the part chagers (me playing devils advocate here), with the complexity of todays air conditioning
equipment and the differance between manufactures is it suprising, guys out there rely on tech support.

How can one guy expertly work on Dakin, LG, Samsung, Mitsubishi Heavy and Electric, Fuji and the tens of others manufacturers out there.

Coolrunnings.

.

[Gary]

If/when only those who know the secret handshake can legally install splits, the costs will skyrocket and self-contained systems will become very popular.

The refrigeration cycle has not changed. The complexity in today's systems is primarily in the controls... and sooner or later these will become self-diagnostic.

No, I'm not talking about the lame fault code crap that we see everywhere. I'm talking about a system that tells the homeowner (yes, the homeowner) which section of the system he needs to unplug and replace.

Is this a futuristic fantasy? Not at all. It can be done... now. It's all a matter of economics.

Contractors everywhere are demanding laws designed to eliminate competition... and those laws are going to price them out of the market.

[cool runings]

Is this a futuristic fantasy? Not at all. It can be done... now. It's all a matter of economics.

Contractors everywhere are demanding laws designed to eliminate competition... and those laws are going to price them out of the market.


I imagin that is true for a lot of industries Gary.

Technology will not be stopped, in the UK we had the Ludites who destroyed steam engins and powered looms back in the 1700's.

Electronics is the new steam engin and we will not slow it progress.

Coolrunnings.

.

[thebigcheese]

i try not ringing tech support as when u do get through they mainly talk to you like your stupid

after getting a full run down on all the things uve already checked ..... its 'order both boards and send back what you dont need'

[matt p]

I'm an improver working mainly on refrigeration but have been thrown on to air conditioning problems recently, without Mitsubishi technical assistance I would really have struggled to find the faults and what parts were needed to put it right. They even helped me with the additional charge for a city multi...so me thinks they aint that bad! The only way I'm going to learn is working on the equipment, college is a waste of time most work is theory but no practical skills learnt!

Ill second that,

Two years for my N.V.Q 2 and one for my N.V.Q 3. learning the practical side was almost nil.

The hardest thing ive found is trying to apply the science in real world situations. As for technical help, Hitachi have been spot on as well as Trane when i had big problems with there tracer summit B.M.S system.

There a couple to that rule ie Mcquay and Lennox.

Regards

Matt

[Gary]

Ill second that,

Two years for my N.V.Q 2 and one for my N.V.Q 3. learning the practical side was almost nil.

The hardest thing ive found is trying to apply the science in real world situations. As for technical help, Hitachi have been spot on as well as Trane when i had big problems with there tracer summit B.M.S system.

There a couple to that rule ie Mcquay and Lennox.

Regards

Matt

I've been told by a great many people over the years that trouble shooting can only be learned through experience. That's a load of crap. Anything that can be learned can be taught. The experience then locks in the learning and makes it real.

I blame it on the schools.

[Quality]

Trouble shooting , fault finding call it what you want but you ultimatley have to learn it which ever way - its the experience you gain through learning it that can`t be teached

[The bone]

Manufacturers are to blame for rubbish service engineers??? What a strange concept... Nothing to do with mobile phones then? When I was an apprentice I used to carry books, books, and more books when I went to site (before e-books on laptops), and when mobile phones were eventually dished out I never used it unless I was absolutely and completely stuck - I was embarrassed to call the office if I'd overlooked something simple, and to be honest got more satisfaction resolving the issue myself (sad but true). :)

By the way who is 'Uncle Neil', and FYI we don't have glass partitions. I think you are confusing me with someone else...
I see you quit the tools atb an early age....Which manufacture do you work for?Wish I could specialise on piece of kit

[cadillackid]

I say troubleshooting.. just general methodical troubleshooting is definately a learned skill.. I dont mean jujst frig or HVAC troubleshooting but any type...

to be able to methodically check and slowly eliminate the causes of a failure systematically is not a skill that every person has....

a good understanding of the theory of how something works HELPS with this.. and the more in-depth you know the more likely you are to be able to find a fault...

as gary points out fault codes are rather useless as it sends a tech in the direction of the code and he looks nowhere else...

one of the things I do and work on myself is Advanced automatic system fault detection and notification... an advanced control system can surely be a nemesis and a block to fixing a system but it can also be our best friend...

I agree the tech support desk has its place.. and I honestly think that ALL techs who intend to work on advanced controls spend some time on the support line... for the main manufacturers sold and serviced by their company....

why??

in the field you work 2 or 3 or 4 calls per day.. more or less depending on how the jobs go.. and typically you see similar issues on many of them except for an occasional unusual one... face it the average tech spends a lot of time chasing down leaks..

on the tech support line you answer 20 or 30 phone calls per day.. you hear and learn about issues you have often never heard of.. and most times controls related.. sure a few blokes call in with mechanical questions but most are in depth controls issues..

work a month on the phones and you gain a wealth of information.. it really works...

now onto the next thing and that is to truly troubleshoot effectively you need to know the complete ins and outs of how a system's controls work.. and the algorithms used..the more info the better.. now the manufacturers dont want to give up too much of that info because many systems are often reverse engineered by competition and ideas stolen ..

HELLO! the system that HVAC's my house.. some of you have seen it elsewhere on the forum.. I cimpletely reverse engineered the communications protocols, the control algorithms.. the boards, etc.. it didsnt take me but 6 months or so to do it.. and really im just a computer geek that worked as an HVAC tech in the 90s and still service a few units on the side (esp mini splits) because the locals here are afraid of them...

my point? manufacturers hold back information puirposely.. which makes techs more likely to be parts changers..
-Christopher

[mad fridgie]

The best engineer has the "Magic or 6th sense" who can go to the problem with little fuss and change or repair only what is required. (every company should have one of these engineers) BUT these engineers are not profitable, they do not change parts willy nilly, they do not have to spend hours scratching their chargable heads.
If clients were willing to pay the true cost of running refrigeration engineers, then parts would be a less of an importance, which then would allow for upskilling. But this is not going to happen, so the best engineer, is one who is concencious, will change the parts until the system is right (best if all done in one visit) If the system is working after the engineer has been, the client does not normally complain, regardless of his invoice

[cadillackid]

I think the difference in all of this is that the best of both worlds is to have SERVICE TECHS out on site.. and have an ENGINEER or two at the shop for the support of the field techs.. this model works great for larger companies...

service techs run the daily routine calls with no assistance and for thopse couple of real bummers they call the office for help.. where the engineer with the 6th sense can give a helping hand...
-Christopher

[Thermatech]

There is no such thing as 6th sence.

When you arrive at site you get a description of the problem from the customer & perhaps some other information like fault codes or system history.
If you have seen this description of problems many times before then you already have a good idea what the possible cause could be. Maybe a short list of 3 or 4 most likely causes are already forming in you mind as the customer describes the problems.
Then without even looking at the system you judge which is the most likely cause based on the many times you have resolved this type of problem before & you mentally make a short list of possible causes & decide on a priority list of things to check.

If you sometimes happen to find the fault straight away its 100% because you found that exact same fault many times before & it was in your judgement the probable cause base on your experiance & good memory & application of fundamental refrigeration knowledge while trouble shooting this problem before.

Depending on the ability of the engineer it can take some years to develop this trouble shooting skill.

When any engineer boasts that he can tell whats wrong with a system at 50 yards you just know he is full of BS or he has many years of experiance.

[mad fridgie]

There is no such thing as 6th sence.

When you arrive at site you get a description of the problem from the customer & perhaps some other information like fault codes or system history.
If you have seen this description of problems many times before then you already have a good idea what the possible cause could be. Maybe a short list of 3 or 4 most likely causes are already forming in you mind as the customer describes the problems.
Then without even looking at the system you judge which is the most likely cause based on the many times you have resolved this type of problem before & you mentally make a short list of possible causes & decide on a priority list of things to check.

If you sometimes happen to find the fault straight away its 100% because you found that exact same fault many times before & it was in your judgement the probable cause base on your experiance & good memory & application of fundamental refrigeration knowledge while trouble shooting this problem before.

Depending on the ability of the engineer it can take some years to develop this trouble shooting skill.

When any engineer boasts that he can tell whats wrong with a system at 50 yards you just know he is full of BS or he has many years of experiance.
Of course there is no "real" 6th sense, as you stated it really a combination of many things. What it really is is the lack of effort by the concious mind to sort out problems. Some seem have this ability but many do not, not to say that those who do not are not good engineers.
Have you ever gone to site (that you have not been to for years) and the client says "it just not working", nothing more. Some how you seem to go straight the point of the fault, more amazinging it is when this happens and the faulty is out of the ordanary as well thats "Magic"

[Gary]

There is no such thing as 6th sence.

When you arrive at site you get a description of the problem from the customer & perhaps some other information like fault codes or system history.
If you have seen this description of problems many times before then you already have a good idea what the possible cause could be. Maybe a short list of 3 or 4 most likely causes are already forming in you mind as the customer describes the problems.
Then without even looking at the system you judge which is the most likely cause based on the many times you have resolved this type of problem before & you mentally make a short list of possible causes & decide on a priority list of things to check.

If you sometimes happen to find the fault straight away its 100% because you found that exact same fault many times before & it was in your judgement the probable cause base on your experiance & good memory & application of fundamental refrigeration knowledge while trouble shooting this problem before.

Depending on the ability of the engineer it can take some years to develop this trouble shooting skill.

When any engineer boasts that he can tell whats wrong with a system at 50 yards you just know he is full of BS or he has many years of experiance.

You're yanking our chains, right?

[Gary]

I have purchased several cars over the years and an odd thing happens each time. I start seeing the same make and model car as mine everywhere I go. I suspect they were there all along, but I just didn't notice them until I had a reason to notice them.

That's how experience works. You learn to notice the symptoms that you have previously been given reason to notice. The symptoms jump right out at you.

[Gary]

I can't count the number of times a dispatcher has sent me on a service call saying "It's probably ________", based on their conversations with the customers.

They are almost always wrong.

You can't tell what the problem is before you see what the machine is doing/not doing. Nobody can.

Guessing is unprofessional. It's what parts changers do.

[mad fridgie]

I can't count the number of times a dispatcher has sent me on a service call saying "It's probably ________", based on their conversations with the customers.

They are almost always wrong.

You can't tell what the problem is before you see what the machine is doing/not doing. Nobody can.

Guessing is unprofessional. It's what parts changers do.
If you had the same dispatcher as me the propably was always "short of gas"

[Gary]

If you had the same dispatcher as me the propably was always "short of gas"

Always a favorite... lol

I kept track for a while... and found that I was removing more refrigerant from systems than I was adding to systems. Everyone overcharges. It is by far the most common service error.

[mad fridgie]

Slightly off subject, I do remember in the Good Old Bad Days, that my Boss said if the Halide Leak lamp did not burn purple, then do not fix the leak. As we would be back in 6 months to recharge. "A good little earner" We did not worry about the enviroment, we cleaned the condensers by blowing through with R12.
Blame me for the ozone hole, I have big shoulders!!!!!

[cadillackid]

and wasnt the old way of flushing by using R-11??

or sometimes just charge and release.. charge and release...

I remember as a kid we had this Big old Janitrol Central air conditioner.. actually had a squirrel cage condensor fan...

the copeland compressor ate it. burnt out.. and being at 11 years old and totally "digging" anything air-conditioning I followed and watched that service guy all day... first thing he did was hook up his gauges and said "watch this you will like".. and he started letting the ***** out and freezing ants, spiders, leaves etc right on the spot... did that several times to "flush the system" as he explained it...

yep the good old days.....

that was a deathly hot summer.. none of the family had ever lived a lick without A/C in many years.. dad sent my mom out to "fill the back of the K-5 Blazer with fans".. the fans we got were real metal bladed box fans and window fans.. fans that were still around until about 2 years ago when a raccoon got into my parents current garage and ate the wiring in them...

oh and i drove by that old house the other day and that Janitrol unit is still out back of the house and presumably still works since it was 86 degrees out and their windows were closed..

my how quality is changed since 1967 when it was installed and 1980 when I watched the compressor replacement..

might have something to do with the perception of service techs these days.. people are quick to blame the equipment if it has never been worked on and fails pre-mature.. but people are sure to blame the tech if it has been repaired and something totally different breaks on it soon after...
-Christopher

[mad fridgie]

Equipment made in the USA was certainly built like a "Brick s**t house" (a compliment) it lasted for years, not to good on the old back if you had to move it.
Yes R11 for flushing, plenty of purging the system, they were always clean.
Freezing ants "how cruel", we all did it!! lol

[Trainer]

I work in technical support department for an AC manufacturer in the UK. When we get technical calls it amazes us how poor (in general) the 'engineers' on site trying to fix the problems are. I'm not suggesting for a moment that it is always entirely their fault, in many cases their employers just cannot be bothered to get them fully trained. However it does make us wonder what the percentage of 'qualified' engineers is compared to those who just decided to get into the industry because 'the money is better' than what they did before. I regularly take calls where the 'engineer' has not even bothered to remove the covers on the unit before calling us for assistance!! And if they do actually get to that stage, half of them don't know what they are looking at anyway.

Being as I come across this poor level of service engineer almost on a day to day basis, I wondered how any of you perceives the state of our industry in this regard, particularly if you work in technical support...?

Additionally I just love the way the equipment carrying the manufacturers' badge always seems to get the blame for the service engineer's incompetence!
I doTechnical Support and training for a major frozen beverage company in the USA. You are correct with your statement, I come into contact with techs on a daily basis who have been repairing refrigeration equipment for years and truly do not understand how a system works.

[Gary]

I doTechnical Support and training for a major frozen beverage company in the USA. You are correct with your statement, I come into contact with techs on a daily basis who have been repairing refrigeration equipment for years and truly do not understand how a system works.

Presumably before you train them?

[cadillackid]

I dont know about europe but in the USA there are a lot of "techs" out there working on stuff that just go buy some gauges a few hand tools and go at it...

considering anyone on ebay will sell anyone refrigerants and the economy the way it is.. just look at craigs list sometime...

there are still a lot of "gas-n-Go" techs out there... put ***** in it collect the check from the consumer and never to be seen again...

or now with all the Obama energy credits there is a lot of used HVAC equipment on the market now... so the craigslist ads read.. "Get Central Air CHEAP.. summer is coming.. Central Air installed for $1000, replace existing for less"..

these guys are buying up all the used equipment and then going around and installing it...

a buddy of mine ran across one such guy this week.. my buddy was putting a mini in his friend's house.. next door 2 guys showed up did a hack electrical job, set a condensor on 4 bricks (no pad), slammed in a line-set, hooked it up turned it on.. charged till the suction line was cold.. no vac. and gone...

the unit looked brand new.. turned out the installer had simply bought 15 year old equipment.. re-painted the cabinet, and installed it.. soft soldered the pipes.. never vacc'd it down and charged the lady $1000. she never had central air in her life before so she was happy just to have it.. wonder if it will last through the summer??

-Christopher

[cool runings]

Slightly off subject, I do remember in the Good Old Bad Days, that my Boss said if the Halide Leak lamp did not burn purple, then do not fix the leak. As we would be back in 6 months to recharge. "A good little earner" We did not worry about the enviroment, we cleaned the condensers by blowing through with R12.
Blame me for the ozone hole, I have big shoulders!!!!!


Well I'm going to have to pull you up on what you say.

You obviously know nothing about refrigeration.

R12 is usless for blowing condensers clean (too low a pressure).

R22 is what you use :D :p..

Coolrunnings

.

[eggs]

Well I'm going to have to pull you up on what you say.

You obviously know nothing about refrigeration.

R12 is usless for blowing condensers clean (too low a pressure).

R22 is what you use :D :p..

Coolrunnings

.

Being a Ducter, I just sell them a new one, far less dirty, better for the environment......and more profitable ;)

Eggs

[mad fridgie]

Well I'm going to have to pull you up on what you say.

You obviously know nothing about refrigeration.

R12 is usless for blowing condensers clean (too low a pressure).

R22 is what you use :D :p..

Coolrunnings

.
Always had good pressure with R12, used heat transfer properties, to raise the pressure.
I Pissed on the bottle lol:rolleyes:

[cool runings]

Always had good pressure with R12, used heat transfer properties, to raise the pressure.
I Pissed on the bottle lol:rolleyes:
In the UK the ambiant temp must be lower than the temp in NZ ;).

As for your method of warming the bottle ;) I choose not to coment :p

coolrunnings

.

[mad fridgie]

In the UK the ambiant temp must be lower than the temp in NZ ;).

As for your method of warming the bottle ;) I choose not to coment :p

coolrunnings

.
That was in the UK, part of the Prestcold training method.:D

[nevgee]

Having poked a very big stick into the Hornets nest. Mr. Memory quickly lost the will to fight his corner ...

He's probably sulked away with his tail between his legs to hide behind his safe and secure little desk not to re appear I hope.

:D

[eggs]

Having poked a very big stick into the Hornets nest. Mr. Memory quickly lost the will to fight his corner ...

He's probably sulked away with his tail between his legs to hide behind his safe and secure little desk not to re appear I hope.

:D

Secure in the knowledge that he gets paid weather he actually helps repair a system or not.

So far I have invoices on my desk for replacement parts suggested by a tech help "engineer" that amount to four times the cost of the replacement condensing unit I bought out of my own pocket to get my customer up and running again.
The thing will not run and I don't know why, nor do they. Everything has been changed except the compressor (which checks out ok, windings balance and insulation resistance is perfect). The inverter checker said everything was fine but still their "best guess" was a new power module, then a new board, then a new diode bridge.......eventually they suggest a new compressor......even though that test out fine as well.

Hydraulic lock anyone?.......on a small split?

Tossers

Eggs

[nevgee]

Put your gauges on open the manifold so the compressor can pump across it, connect an alternaive electrical supply via a starter and turn it on ... if it doesn't run then yes .. compressor may be locked up. At least that way you'll have elliminated every thing from the compressor.

[eggs]

Trouble is it is a small split, with only a suction service port.
It's a little inverter system so I'm not sure how i would juice it up with an alternative power source.

I asked them a specific question to which they could not provide an answer, so the system is now on a work bench in a corner of the lock up, and it will be repaired at my leisure at maximum cost to them. :).

On this occasion their flow charts didn't work.

Eggs

[nike123]

Trouble is it is a small split, with only a suction service port.
It's a little inverter system so I'm not sure how i would juice it up with an alternative power source.

I asked them a specific question to which they could not provide an answer, so the system is now on a work bench in a corner of the lock up, and it will be repaired at my leisure at maximum cost to them. :).

On this occasion their flow charts didn't work.

Eggs

Now you are blaming help desk because you don't know how to test inverter compressor or you dont have required equipment to do that.
If it is AC compressor it could be simply connected to 3 phase power supply.
If it is DC compressor, than you need to troubleshoot everything else, and if everything else is OK than your compressor must be faulty.

[eggs]

If it is AC compressor it could be simply connected to 3 phase power supply.


I don't know about Croatia, but in the UK not many houses have 3 phase and I don't have a 3 phase power supply in the van.



If it is DC compressor, than you need to troubleshoot everything else, and if everything else is OK than your compressor must be faulty.

But I did trouble shoot everything else and it checked out OK, including the compressor.

My point is, that even though it must be the the compressor that is faulty, the muppet in tech help wants to make me change 3 components before he suggest the obvious and sends me a new compressor. Based on his "educated guess"
I had already told him that the inverter side of the system was fine.

He knew better.

Eggs

[cadillackid]

I think itsa time for the manufacturer to step up and just fork over the cost of the new outdoor unit... and let you keep the old so you have a full arsenal of spare parts....

and I agree about no 3 phase.. heck most small shops in the USA dont have 3 phase at their disposal... there may be 3 phase in the building but many HVAC / R companies work out of office parks and you just have a standard 220 volt panel and thats it...

after all it usually just a warehouse and then an office area... the office area usually handled by a couple 3 ton split systems..
the warehouse unconditioned cept maybe for a REZNOR gas heater hanging from the rafters...
-Christopher

[slowhandpuke]

ive just returned from spain where ive been installing domestic and small commercial AC. Ive been doing this with my father who is time served electrical engineer with ICI. He could take a machine apart and find the fault and fix it. However we didnt do this because all spare parts were only sold to the sevice engineer of that particular company. So if the faults werent on our installation then we called the sales office and let them fix it.
So its definitely the manufacturers who are de-skilling the workforce.

[install monkey]

the term engineer covers a broad spectrum from those with vast experience to the 1 eyed mutants and management offsprings!not all install engineers can faultfind also service engineers will query the integrity of an install like condenser spacing and additional charge so be greatfull that us cavemen working on systems req technical assistance thus keeping techies in work otherwise stacking shelves in asda whilst technical support will be outsourced to a call centre in india!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

[The Red Krawler]

There is no such thing as 6th sence.

When you arrive at site you get a description of the problem from the customer & perhaps some other information like fault codes or system history.
If you have seen this description of problems many times before then you already have a good idea what the possible cause could be. Maybe a short list of 3 or 4 most likely causes are already forming in you mind as the customer describes the problems.
Then without even looking at the system you judge which is the most likely cause based on the many times you have resolved this type of problem before & you mentally make a short list of possible causes & decide on a priority list of things to check.

If you sometimes happen to find the fault straight away its 100% because you found that exact same fault many times before & it was in your judgement the probable cause base on your experiance & good memory & application of fundamental refrigeration knowledge while trouble shooting this problem before.

Depending on the ability of the engineer it can take some years to develop this trouble shooting skill.

When any engineer boasts that he can tell whats wrong with a system at 50 yards you just know he is full of BS or he has many years of experiance.

I do tend to agree with this.

IMO, the most important part of being a fridgie is the attitude - not so much in the typical sense of the term, but in regards to being the type of person who wants to see something fixed, and has trouble accepting defeat when faced with a problem.

I see having to return to a site as a personal failing, and absolutely hate it. Yet theres a couple of guys at the same company who are quite happy to return 2 or 3 times to the same job before getting it right, and happily claim a great success. :confused:

I'd say as labor becomes more and more devalued in the era of cheap Chinese imports, the ability of a tech becomes less important than the time it takes them to get off the premises and stop costing the customer money. The emphasis will be on replacing parts quickly, then leaving as opposed to a 'real' diagnosis and repairing components. The parts are cheap, the labor expensive.

Bit of a shame, but eh. I'm not going to become a parts replacer anytime soon so my career in refrigeration may be time limited :P