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Tobiastoocold
14-04-2010, 07:04 PM
Hello to to you all from a new member.

Could i have your opinions on the following please.

We have a site with 6xDaikin Cassetes(splits)
They were installed coming up to 3yrs ago, so soon out of warranty.
We have no end of problems with comps,boards etc.In fact we have replaced a comp and board on pretty much each one.The customer is quite rigtly a little miifed at the amount of problems that she has endured.
We have carried out all work so far on a free basis(even though we only offer 1yrs labour warranty) apart from receiving Daikins pretty poor labour allowance.
We have had site/installation independently checked and no problems with the job reported.
Daikin are not interested in the problems we have had, but are now not offering a warranty on another system that has gone down.

The customer is now threatening legal action from either our co or Daikin quoting that the goods are not fit for purpose.
What do you think her chances are of winning any case?
I should add that the site is not under a maintenance agreement, and has not had a maintenance carried out as far as we know(certainly not by our co).In our T+C's we state that lack of regular maintenance invalidates any warranty.

Thank You

Toby

simon@parker
14-04-2010, 08:36 PM
hello there would suggest you go to a legal forum and get some free advice and maybe pay for some advice will be worth it in long run save you worry just a thought are you daikin credited installer ? have they attended site and inspected systems ? and if it does go to court you dont want to be discussing it here good luck with it :)

frank
14-04-2010, 08:36 PM
My Opinion.....

If she's threatening legal action against your Company and you are not the original installer, but you have tried to carry out repairs to rectify problems with her kit, to the best of your ability, I would DUMP HER as a customer asap :D

Seems like someone who does not appreciate the help you are giving. The old saying 'cannot see the wood for the trees' springs to mind

Tobiastoocold
14-04-2010, 08:43 PM
Hi, thanks for the replies.
No we're not a D1 company. I have tried speaking to Daikin but they are not interested in coming out.

We were the original installers of the kit.
The customer is in general an absolute pain in the you know what, and would gladly "lose her", but a bit concerned with any legalities.

Thanks

tonyh
14-04-2010, 09:35 PM
Hi, Daikins T&C state "The goods are guaranteed under manufacturers warranty for a period of 1yr upon delivery. This warranty is limited to the repair or replacement ex factory of the parts found defective unless otherwise agreed in writing".
It also states "This warranty is given on condition that the maintenance of the goods has been carried out in accordance with the manufacturers instructions by an authorised Daikin Dealer/installer/maintenance company".

So going off what you have said i.e. good installation but customer has no record of maintenance being carried out in the 3yrs installed they would not have a leg to stand on, having said that it is really up to you if you want to keep the customer happy or cut and run.
I take it you did inform customer upon installation completion that they require regular serviceing as per manufacturers for the warranty.

Tobiastoocold
14-04-2010, 09:51 PM
Hi,
Yes we have in our T&C's that warranty is invalidated if correct regular maintenance is not carried out.
We also send corespondance offering a maintenance agreement to the customer 6 months after installation.
It's an awkward one really, because I do have a certain amount of empathy with the customer, but I feel there is only so much we can do.

Kev The Tool
14-04-2010, 09:55 PM
Hi,
From my own experience most of the main manufacturers insist on a regular maintenance contract to validate the warranty, had some problems with some s**t kit and first thing i was asked by the manufacturers was have i got a copy of maintenance records, typical tight arse customer not wanting to spend on maintenance but expecting replacements after 3 years, i know what i would tell her, in my opinion you have done more than enough, i would give her daikins number and wash your hands.
kev

tonyh
14-04-2010, 09:56 PM
Just out of curiosity what state were the filters and coils in when first called to these problems.

Tobiastoocold
14-04-2010, 10:20 PM
We arrived on site prior to the inspection co and the filters were absolutely choked solid.
Thanks

al
14-04-2010, 10:51 PM
Toby

By replacing the parts under extended warranty(if i'm reading it correctly) you have essentially invalidated your own t&c's, you state one year warranty and no warranty if not maintained properly, yet you have replaced parts etc.

My view, write to the customer, explain that even though they have refused ESSENTIAL maintenance you have still borne at personal cost warranty issues, as stated above i would give contact details for Daikin, also stating their warranty conditions. As the provider you are responsible for the kit (to a certain degree).

Are the units correctly sized, are they within specification with regard pipe lengths etc...

Finally i would seek legal advice sooner rather than later, I don't think the customer has much of a case and you have shown tremendous loyalty to her!

Alec

Gingerair
14-04-2010, 11:59 PM
Hi Toby

If i have this right that your company is responsible for the original install, you need to check that it was done by the book as per Daikins instructions. You'll need to go through this methodically to make sure there are no latent defects & the problems you're having are not related to the original selection & installation.

Any dispute will be decided on the reasons why the equipment has not performed as expected. If this can be proven to be down to lack of maintenance then ok, but if there are questions raised about the install then this would not be good for the installer.

The blame & therefore responsibility for, will rest with who/where the cause of the problems originate.

Remember your client, courts & solicitors will know nothing about air conditiong, so will look for a reference, which will normally tend to be the manufactures instructions..

You need to identify the cause of your problems & back it up with evidence.

Find out exactly where you are re the install then go see a solicitor who has experience with this sort of case, they should give you an initial 1/2hr consultation for free..

One things for sure, the only people who don't lose out in any case that goes legal is the solicitors !!
You may be better off not just financially, but in the use of you own time getting dragged into a long drawn-out legal process, to bite the bullet & recitify any probs voluntarily or see if your client will split any costs with you, say if they paid for materials & you supplied labour.. Even if you made the effort this would look better in a court, you won't impress a judge if you walk away from an install that your client can prove is faulty..

You could also take a chance, hope your client is just calling your bluff with the legal & walk away..

Good luck !!

Ranga

Abe
15-04-2010, 12:30 AM
I would go back to the original contract and study the terms carefully.

Usually the warranty covers the first 12 months . I think the extended warranty would be honoured by the manufacturer if the systems were maintained, which I think they were not. ( Clogged filters)

You need to obtain a experts report to safeguard your position. And of course study what promises were made to the customer.

Tobiastoocold
15-04-2010, 08:36 AM
Thank you all for your input.
If I was to get all systems up and running( ie replace the remaining spare parts reqd) out of our own pocket, would the customer then have any comeback to us in say 8mths time(when the equipment is out of warranty) if the equipment failed again?

Toby

al
15-04-2010, 04:44 PM
toby

You need legal advice, get a recommendation for a solicitor. The customer always has the right to complain

keep us posted.

Alec

Tobiastoocold
15-04-2010, 05:37 PM
Will do.

Thanks all.
(how do we go about finding some free legal advise? In what particular field of expertise?( ie contract law?)

Gingerair
15-04-2010, 06:02 PM
Hi again Toby

Have you asked Daikin if they'll do a site inspection & report for you if you'll pay them ?
Could be money well spent..

They may highlight any issues re the install or hopfuly indicate that the install is per their instructions & is not the cause..

Think it's important you get to the bottom of whats causing the kit problems, then go from there.

al
15-04-2010, 08:09 PM
Toby

Abe is our local legal man, very well informed and uses plain english, maybe give him a pm or put out a call on this thread.

Alec

frank
15-04-2010, 08:24 PM
Toby

Abe is our local legal man, very well informed and uses plain english, maybe give him a pm or put out a call on this thread.

Alec
See Post number 12

Abe
16-04-2010, 10:28 PM
I have had an opportunety to read this thread more carefully and can make the following comments.

For a start the poster saddled with the present problems is the "original installer" I would deem then that he bears responsibilty, ( under the law of privity) for the warranty period, for the first twelve months in any event, and a longer term if they warranted a further term, which would be an extra two years.

The contract documents are the determinant factor which will clarify what promises were made by whom and if any of the contractual terms were breached in any way.

Problems with the systems
It seems inconcievable that every single system has had a compressor and a board go down. The odds just dont add up.

Either all the units came from a batch which had an inherent manufacturing defect or the breakdowns are the result of a poor installation.

The court will in this instance be reliant upon an independent experts report to identify the cause of the failures.

It is also an issue why the company chose to effect the repairs at its own costs and with subsidies from the manufacturer when it was under no obligation to do so contractually after the initial period.

Either it was an attempt to maintain good customer relations, and if so why then stop at the last unit when the three year period is about up.

The customer is rightfully aggrieved with the situation and quite within their legal right to sue both installer and manufacturer as joint defendants.

The customer will seek a remedy under section 14 of the Sales of Goods Act.

I need to know a little more how the original installer was out of the picture for a period of time, during which time no maintenance was carried out, and is now back in the picture repairing the units. ( Unless Im reading the post incorrectly)

Hope that helps. Of course these are arbitrary and loose preliminery questions that come to mind, there is a lot more historical information to digest before the facts become clearer.

cool runings
16-04-2010, 10:54 PM
.

So basically he's buggered :eek:











Only kidding.

Sort of Damed if you do and Dammed if you don't.

Unless it was a bad install??

Mine field springs to mind.

cool runnings.

.

Tobiastoocold
19-04-2010, 08:59 PM
I have had an opportunety to read this thread more carefully and can make the following comments.

For a start the poster saddled with the present problems is the "original installer" I would deem then that he bears responsibilty, ( under the law of privity) for the warranty period, for the first twelve months in any event, and a longer term if they warranted a further term, which would be an extra two years.Yes we were the original installer.

The contract documents are the determinant factor which will clarify what promises were made by whom and if any of the contractual terms were breached in any way.
Our original quote, which was verbally agreed states the following:
WARRANTY

Any parts of the equipment which fail during the twelve months immediately following commissioning due to faulty materials or workmanship during original manufacture or installation will be replaced and fitted free of charge.

EXTENDED WARRANTY

Additional manufacturer’s three year warranties are available on undertaking of preventative maintenance contract.


PREVENTATIVE MAINTENANCE AND SERVICE CONTRACT

Upon completion of your installation, we would strongly recommend that you enter into a service and maintenance agreement. This will ensure that you equipment is kept at peak efficiency with related savings in running costs and reliability.



Problems with the systems
It seems inconcievable that every single system has had a compressor and a board go down. The odds just dont add up.

Either all the units came from a batch which had an inherent manufacturing defect or the breakdowns are the result of a poor installation.

The court will in this instance be reliant upon an independent experts report to identify the cause of the failures.
We have paid for 2 independant A/C companies to visit site to check our installation.Both have found no fault with the install.Is this sufficient in a courts eyes as being independant?


It is also an issue why the company chose to effect the repairs at its own costs and with subsidies from the manufacturer when it was under no obligation to do so contractually after the initial period.

Either it was an attempt to maintain good customer relations, and if so why then stop at the last unit when the three year period is about up.
As you said, we have gone beyond our offered warranty to promote good customer relations.

The customer is rightfully aggrieved with the situation and quite within their legal right to sue both installer and manufacturer as joint defendants.

The customer will seek a remedy under section 14 of the Sales of Goods Act.
Surely the fact that no maintenance agreement was ever implemented( despite being offered to her) negates any responsibility on our part?


I need to know a little more how the original installer was out of the picture for a period of time, during which time no maintenance was carried out, and is now back in the picture repairing the units. ( Unless Im reading the post incorrectly)
We never went away.Just that their maintenance consisted of a brush of the filters from their staff.Also as the install is now over 3 years old and at the moment fully operational, when do we have no comeback from the customer?( ie what happens if a comp goes down in 10 months time?)
Hope that helps. Of course these are arbitrary and loose preliminery questions that come to mind, there is a lot more historical information to digest before the facts become clearer.

Regards

Toby

Tobiastoocold
19-04-2010, 09:01 PM
Hi again Toby

Have you asked Daikin if they'll do a site inspection & report for you if you'll pay them ?
Could be money well spent..

They may highlight any issues re the install or hopfuly indicate that the install is per their instructions & is not the cause..

Think it's important you get to the bottom of whats causing the kit problems, then go from there.

At the bargain price of £750!!Daikin have shown no interest at all

Abe
19-04-2010, 10:19 PM
Without Prejudice

Tobiastoocold

Thank you for your response.

You fullfilled your part of the bargain by maintaining the units over the first 12 months.

The customer did not take up the option of an extended warranty as the contract stated that the warranty was available on "condition" that they entered into a maintenance contract with you.

This they did not do.

You were under no obligation to continue repairing the units after the first twelve months.

You have covered yourself from any claim that the install was flawed by having this checked by two independant ac companies.

( Keep the records appertaining to this check)
The reports can be held to be independent if:

They were independent, (no bias)

And competent to provide a report.

ps: (The customer may commission their own report)

In my opinion, I do not consider you are liable. There was no contract beyond the first twelve months.

It will be pointless suing the manufacturer, as they failed to abide to the terms which requires them to have the units serviced by a competent and approved Daikin installer after the first twelve months.

Argument that the goods were unfit for purpose or lacked durability

Coming on to three years they have left it too late. If indeed the units were not fit for purpose, then this should have been apparent very early on, within the first twelve months in any case.ie: (sized wrongly or mechanically deficient.)

If I buy a tv from Argos and I do not pay a little extra for the extended warranty, then even one hour after the warranty ends, and the tv goes blank, then I cannot go demanding free service.

Its the same argument here. Hope that helps.

Tobiastoocold
19-04-2010, 11:08 PM
Abe,
Many thanks for your input.
You have helped to alleviate my fears over any legal action(hopefully).
We are still hoping to get to the bottom of the problems at this site.
Thanks once again.
Toby