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View Full Version : U.K. Training Ref C&G 2079 and ACRIB?







Grizzly
19-02-2010, 06:41 AM
I was informed the other day that having passed 2079 it is a requirement to register / join ACRIB!
Is this True?
And if so WHY?
Grizzly

Brian_UK
19-02-2010, 07:34 PM
Not to my knowledge, sounds like a sales pitch from someone.

Grizzly
19-02-2010, 08:12 PM
My thoughts exactly Brian!
That's why I have asked the question.
My Company informed all engineers recently that they would no longer pay for any ACRIB Membership!
But if the above is true they may well have to revise their standpoint?
Mind they have informed us recently that we have to complete the Skill Card Assessments etc.
Grizzly

taz24
19-02-2010, 09:25 PM
.

From ACRIB themselves.

Current legislation requires that anyone handling Ozone Depleting refrigerants such as R22 or R408A must hold a refrigerant handling qualification either C&G2078/CITB or C&G2079 pt1 or CITB J11

Current legislation also requires that anyone handling refrigerants specified in the F Gas Regulations (HFCs including those above and others) can continue to work if they hold either an existing C&G2078 or CITB equivalent until 4th July 2011 only as an “interim qualification”. By this date they must have obtained one of the new F Gas and ODS qualifications C&G2079 pt1 or CITB J11.

taz

.

Grizzly
19-02-2010, 10:18 PM
.

From ACRIB themselves.

Current legislation requires that anyone handling Ozone Depleting refrigerants such as R22 or R408A must hold a refrigerant handling qualification either C&G2078/CITB or C&G2079 pt1 or CITB J11

Current legislation also requires that anyone handling refrigerants specified in the F Gas Regulations (HFCs including those above and others) can continue to work if they hold either an existing C&G2078 or CITB equivalent until 4th July 2011 only as an “interim qualification”. By this date they must have obtained one of the new F Gas and ODS qualifications C&G2079 pt1 or CITB J11.

taz

.

That I understand Taz.
Can you advise as to whether it is necessary to then register with ACRIB?
Thanks Grizzly

taz24
19-02-2010, 11:41 PM
That I understand Taz.
Can you advise as to whether it is necessary to then register with ACRIB?
Thanks Grizzly


The way I see it is...

ACRIB is a volentary register.

Now at the moment the legal requirement to be F gas
acredited does not realy kick in untill July 2011.

Now in my opinion and it is only my opinion ACRIB or some
other recognised agency membership will become
mandatory. Just like companies have to be Refcom or
what ever registered now.

Now at the moment registration fees are reasonable low but
when they become mandatory I bet the price goes up.

So in my opinion ACRIB registration is advisable if
only to get you on the register.

taz

.

Latte
20-02-2010, 12:14 AM
Never looked into it before, 3 questions :-

1) is it free to register
2) can you do it personally or does it have to be done by youre employers
3) any benifits or is it just to have youre name registered somewhere

the thing that concerns me is that you can have all these qualifications but there is no one policing them. I have 2079 & a care card but no one (apart from my employer) has actually asked for proof that i am qualified to work with refrigerents

Grizzly
20-02-2010, 08:33 AM
Taz.
Thanks for your update.
I think your comments are similar to what most are thinking.
IE not yet mandatory but may well become the expected norm!
Latte.
I think you and your Company are like most!
None are happy with the huge expenses that are being incurred.
So it is not unlikely that "we" will police it ourselves to a degree.
Say you are beaten to a job on price, by Joe Blogs & co.
You are going to ask the customer as to whether they are refcom and 2079 licenced. Pointing out the Legal Requirements
I know my Company is informing customers of all new legislation.
I guess we will all have to wait and see!

You register with ACRIB as an individual.
I think the FEE is over £30.00 per section now. (a Guess).
You get something like a Driving Licence with all your trade details on.
Mine ran out about 3 yrs ago and I cannot remember when I was last asked for it.
Much like a Skill Card, which are also gaining in popularity.

It is logical that as we are having to invest so much. We are going to eventually Police it?
I suppose it depends how cynical you feel.
Grizzly

multisync
20-02-2010, 09:13 AM
Because of a lack of a central body we have proved over the years we are simply unable to self govern. Back when R12/502 was being banned the g.ment of the day should have simply state from that point all engineers companies and refrigerant handlers (including wholesalers and effin EBAY!) must by law register with 'Corgi Cool'

Not saying Corgi was perfect but they would have ensured all were compliant in what was back then quite a small industry. New comers would have to gain correct training and as the industry grew so could the regulations.
REFCOM F-GAS ACRIB et al are all way too small to handle this with sufficient authority to make the regs stick. F-Gas have already pretty much given up on small one man bands and are only going after the 'top 100'. Pushing it down to local authorities to police is an admission of ineffectiveness and the LA's are unsure of their role and the costs involved.

It will work, just like Corgi )gas safe)does. However because of the size of the task it is going to be 10 years before all these regs and laws become part of the norm...In the meantime if the good companies don't comply then how will the bad companies be driven out??

Grizzly
20-02-2010, 09:57 AM
Multisync
Good to see your Mellowing with age Mate!;)
I know where the real money is being earned!:rolleyes:

Grizzly

freezetech
21-02-2010, 08:06 PM
i think the confusion here is registration every company or individual must register with a recognised body ie quidos refcom etc to obtain a certificate of comliance if you have the old quals you will receive an iterim cert if you have new quals you will receive full cert but everybody will require full certification next year acrib is not a legal requirement but as good benefits for joining its an individual that must join and they require ou to send them upto date quals for you to register

freezetech
21-02-2010, 09:48 PM
The way I see it is...

ACRIB is a volentary register.

Now at the moment the legal requirement to be F gas
acredited does not realy kick in untill July 2011.

Now in my opinion and it is only my opinion ACRIB or some
other recognised agency membership will become
mandatory. Just like companies have to be Refcom or
what ever registered now.

Now at the moment registration fees are reasonable low but
when they become mandatory I bet the price goes up.

So in my opinion ACRIB registration is advisable if
only to get you on the register.

taz

.
acrib do not run an f-gas register so if you register with acrib you still have to register with somebody like refcom

nevgee
21-02-2010, 10:32 PM
DEFRA have designated three bodies able to issue Company Certificates
Refcom, Bureau Veritas and Quidos.

It is a legal requirement for all businesses that install, maintain or service stationary refrigeration, air-conditioning or heat-pump (RAC) equipment that contains or is designed to contain "F gas" refrigerants to hold a Company Certificate issued by an appointed Company Certification Body. It is an offence to carry out these activities without a Company Certificate.

This legal requirement applies to RAC maintenance contractors and installers, including sole traders, and to RAC end users and facility managers that employ their own qualified staff to carry out the activities described above.


For an interim company certificate you need:

Basic information about the business.
Details about employed engineers - to work on equipment over 3kg charge size they must hold a valid qualification either City & Guilds 2078 or 2079 or CITB J01 or J11-14.
To apply for a Company Certificate contact one of the following:
Refcom: Website: www.refcom.org.uk (http://www.refcom.org.uk) telephone: 01768 860409 or email: info@refcom.org.uk
Bureau Veritas: Website: www.bureauveritas.co.uk/fgas (http://www.bureauveritas.co.uk/fgas), telephone: 0207 661 0726 email: fgas.mail@uk.bureauveritas.com
Quidos: Website: http://fgasregister.com, telephone: 01225 318400 or email fgas@quidos.co.uk

Essentially all companies and sole traders have to register and in doing so declare they employ engineers who hold the current certification.

So, if you're employed then your company holds registration and if you're a one man band you should also be registered, therefore you dont need to register with ACRIB as you'll be registered through the DEFRA appointed bodies.

Simple huh? :confused:

taz24
23-02-2010, 12:26 AM
acrib do not run an f-gas register so if you register with acrib you still have to register with somebody like refcom


You are correct ACRIB is not an F gas register, but it is
the register of safe handling of refrigerants and so it
would (in my oppinion) continue as the register for refrigerant
handling, the 2079 has superceded the 2078.

Refcom and its like are a register for comanies..


Horses for courses I spose..

taz

.

hyperion
23-02-2010, 08:00 AM
At least with the ACRIB registration the individual gets a "credit card" sized photocard that can be easily produced if challenged. How many of you actually carry your C&G 2078/2079 or CITB certificate with you?

andychill
07-04-2010, 11:47 PM
This old chestnut makes me laugh. I understand the instinctive desire to protect income by wanting everyone to adhere to a strict set of rules, thus presumably forcing the cowboys out by threats of fines or imprisonment.

The refrigeration industry is different to gas and electrical trades though as a serious investment in both kit and knowledge is required before anyone can go anywhere near carrying out even the most rudimentary task on a refrig system. Not so on basic gas or electrical appliances or installations.

So who, exactly, do you want to force either out of the industry or make them comply with the latest bull****-trade organisation rule book in order to earn a living?

And why the weird, inhuman desire to be governed?? Why not just go about your professional business to the best of your ability, dont rip anyone off and make yourself and/or your employer a decent living?

frank
08-04-2010, 08:22 AM
At least with the ACRIB registration the individual gets a "credit card" sized photocard that can be easily produced if challenged. How many of you actually carry your C&G 2078/2079 or CITB certificate with you?
My qualifications on the reverse side of my CSCS card, which is always carried and shown when requested.... seems to satisfy everyone asking

multisync
08-04-2010, 04:37 PM
This old chestnut makes me laugh. I understand the instinctive desire to protect income by wanting everyone to adhere to a strict set of rules, thus presumably forcing the cowboys out by threats of fines or imprisonment.

Ok so the basic premise is acceptable..


The refrigeration industry is different to gas and electrical trades though as a serious investment in both kit and knowledge is required before anyone can go anywhere near carrying out even the most rudimentary task on a refrig system. Not so on basic gas or electrical appliances or installations.
Years ago it was exactly like that. Back in the 70's and 80's sparks and plumber and builders and alike would say "err that's a fridge system I ain't touching that" The trade was regulated by outsiders not willing to work on fridge kit (except demolition contractors who would just chop pipes irrespective of contents) Engineers had a PROPER apprenticeship not some rubbish government 8 week and away you go scheme.

Sadly the Japanese came and deskilled it and actively told plumber and sparks that they were missing out on easy money and go get some...Suddenly the mystic art became a free for all. Every trade van suddenly had "and air conditioning" written on it. The tools you need are easily and cheaply available on ebay so cost isn't an issue for those looking for a get rich quick scheme..

Because the trade was/is so fragmented and complacent it allowed them to 'get away with it' and that would continue to the day unless the CFC, Safe Handling and F-Gas laws hadn't came in. Sadly we are such a poorly run industry that we needed government to tell us to stop releasing CFC's and refrigerants. We also needed government to tell us to smarten up our act and improve. I agree. We need to get to this point as fast as possible so we can increase the rates charged accordingly. The customer pays for the quality of service.

This isn't just about protecting our industry it's about protecting the customer. A lot here forget that side and just 'poor me' the whole deal..




So who, exactly, do you want to force either out of the industry or make them comply with the latest bull****-trade organisation rule book in order to earn a living?You already answered this in your first paragraph. The trade mags have 'bodger watch' pictures. Hendra has them on his site... Unless you believe these pictures of fantastic work photoshopped to look bad?? or why not look at the hall of shame thread -or again is that bull****?

That work in those pictures is what YOU are. Your're a fridgeman -bodger Bill installer is a fridgeman what's the difference? Even though he must be fully skilled and tooled up (according to you) he does **** work. If you want to be associated with crap like that then I guess you're of that same ilk.

Forgive me if I don't want to be associated or work to your standards nor do I want people like you to remain in this industry!


And why the weird, inhuman desire to be governed?? We need governing, otherwise we become inhuman. Simply watch the post disaster TV footage of the looting that goes on if you need proof....We also need governing on a local scale. Stopping at traffic lights is not natural human behaviour but most comply as they understand the need...You really need to take a step back if you think civilisation would exist without governance




Why not just go about your professional business to the best of your ability, dont rip anyone off and make yourself and/or your employer a decent living?Why should we 'go about' as you say and get the tools, skills and legal stuff to see some jack **** coming in and under cutting everyone and buggering up the trade. If we are to be perceived as a professional trade we need to act accordingly. That means everyone not just those committed to doing so..

The Gas trade and the Electrical trades both have regulatory bodies. Most moan about them but compliance improves the breed. Gas and electrical regulations change, how can we all be sure the engineer who turns up is aware of the new regs? By regular enforced training that's how.

How can a gas customer have peace of mind that their gas cooker has been properly installed? By using a GasSafe registered engineer. How can a Granny know her electrics are safe? By using a PartP registered installer.If it isn't safe she has a comeback by reporting them and getting them struck off and/or fined. Big stick is needed to beat the cowboys away

We need to operate professionally we all agree. How does the customer rate you against some bloke in the pub who said "I'll have a crack at it for you" By using a 2079 registered engineer. We messed up already by not employing Corgi when they lost out on Gas. They had a set up with the infrstructure to regulate the industry and we would be at the point of full compliance with strict enforcement far far quicker..

Nothing is 100% foolproof as there are always cowboys out there trying to beat the system..(opps sorry forgot cowboys don't exists in our industry:confused:

Grizzly
08-04-2010, 05:48 PM
Well done Multi,
I thought you had mellowed.
As you say there is a lot of crap about.
In many guises.
But Most of us will capitulate eventually.
It is hurting a lot of people at the moment to have to pay to prove what (2079).
It ain't the golden ticket like corgi, which I thought it would be.
In fact does anyone know someone who has failed this exam?
Grizzly

andychill
11-04-2010, 11:38 PM
Ok so the basic premise is acceptable..

Years ago it was exactly like that. Back in the 70's and 80's sparks and plumber and builders and alike would say "err that's a fridge system I ain't touching that" The trade was regulated by outsiders not willing to work on fridge kit (except demolition contractors who would just chop pipes irrespective of contents) Engineers had a PROPER apprenticeship not some rubbish government 8 week and away you go scheme.

Sadly the Japanese came and deskilled it and actively told plumber and sparks that they were missing out on easy money and go get some...Suddenly the mystic art became a free for all. Every trade van suddenly had "and air conditioning" written on it. The tools you need are easily and cheaply available on ebay so cost isn't an issue for those looking for a get rich quick scheme..

You sound like a bit of a dinosaur mate. Doubtless many other trades got all protective when the industrial revolution kicked in; the old hand weavers wouldnt have liked seeing all those new-fangled mechanical looms that wiped their trade out overnight. I could go on but hopefully you get my point.

Banging on about the Japanese (which is wrong btw, most cheap imports are Chinese - I wont lecture you on geography tonight though) is just plain stupid. Little ole you aint going to halt commercial progress. Get used to it.

The 'mystic art' still exists. Builders and plumbers aint going to have the skills or equipment to tackle serious refrig work. Sure, they can plug in a DIY cheapo unit, but so can householders, so why the fuss? I made that point originally, but hey, why let facts get in the way of a high-handed opinion?

Because the trade was/is so fragmented and complacent it allowed them to 'get away with it' and that would continue to the day unless the CFC, Safe Handling and F-Gas laws hadn't came in. Sadly we are such a poorly run industry that we needed government to tell us to stop releasing CFC's and refrigerants. We also needed government to tell us to smarten up our act and improve. I agree. We need to get to this point as fast as possible so we can increase the rates charged accordingly. The customer pays for the quality of service.

You miss the point again. The perception of the government 'protecting' our industry is rubbish. 2079, Fgas, ACRIB, C&G - all toothless with no remit or desire to act against cowboys. They may go after someone if they get dobbed in, but thats about it. Otherwise, they are all just making money - effectively taxing you to work whilst putting up a thin vale or promise of protecting your income. They prey on enough mugs believing in their illusion to get away with the scam. Nuff said;-)

This isn't just about protecting our industry it's about protecting the customer. A lot here forget that side and just 'poor me' the whole deal..

Oh, behave. When little old ladies are still getting scammed by dodgy builders, roofers, plumbers etc, not to mention the likes of the banking industry being allowed to bring whole nations to their knees, do you honestly think that anyone is going to protect customers in our trade?


You already answered this in your first paragraph. The trade mags have 'bodger watch' pictures. Hendra has them on his site... Unless you believe these pictures of fantastic work photoshopped to look bad?? or why not look at the hall of shame thread -or again is that bull****?


That work in those pictures is what YOU are. Your're a fridgeman -bodger Bill installer is a fridgeman what's the difference? Even though he must be fully skilled and tooled up (according to you) he does **** work. If you want to be associated with crap like that then I guess you're of that same ilk.

Those comments are both personal and defamatory. I appreciate you don't know me and I'm guessing that you've formed an opinion on me based on what I've posted previously, but you really do not want to be going around saying things like that in a public arena. Please remove those comments immediately.

Forgive me if I don't want to be associated or work to your standards nor do I want people like you to remain in this industry!

See the above statement and act accordingly.

We need governing, otherwise we become inhuman. Simply watch the post disaster TV footage of the looting that goes on if you need proof....We also need governing on a local scale. Stopping at traffic lights is not natural human behaviour but most comply as they understand the need...You really need to take a step back if you think civilisation would exist without governance

Why should we 'go about' as you say and get the tools, skills and legal stuff to see some jack **** coming in and under cutting everyone and buggering up the trade. If we are to be perceived as a professional trade we need to act accordingly. That means everyone not just those committed to doing so..

The Gas trade and the Electrical trades both have regulatory bodies. Most moan about them but compliance improves the breed. Gas and electrical regulations change, how can we all be sure the engineer who turns up is aware of the new regs? By regular enforced training that's how.

How can a gas customer have peace of mind that their gas cooker has been properly installed? By using a GasSafe registered engineer. How can a Granny know her electrics are safe? By using a PartP registered installer.If it isn't safe she has a comeback by reporting them and getting them struck off and/or fined. Big stick is needed to beat the cowboys away

We need to operate professionally we all agree. How does the customer rate you against some bloke in the pub who said "I'll have a crack at it for you" By using a 2079 registered engineer. We messed up already by not employing Corgi when they lost out on Gas. They had a set up with the infrstructure to regulate the industry and we would be at the point of full compliance with strict enforcement far far quicker..

Nothing is 100% foolproof as there are always cowboys out there trying to beat the system..(opps sorry forgot cowboys don't exists in our industry:confused:

It's a shame you decided to get personal when I was only adding to the debate.

I'm also surprised the mods let you get away with making such random, peurile and ill-informed comments.

frank
12-04-2010, 07:53 PM
Andychill

If you feel that you have been agrieved by a poster, click on the Warning Triangle top right of the post and report the poster. The Mods or Webram will consider the post and take action if deemed appropriate.

multisync
13-04-2010, 06:09 AM
You sound like a bit of a dinosaur mate. Doubtless many other trades got all protective when the industrial revolution kicked in; the old hand weavers wouldnt have liked seeing all those new-fangled mechanical looms that wiped their trade out overnight. I could go on but hopefully you get my point.



Corgi and part P are modern regulations -thank God you don't want to leacture me on History !


Banging on about the Japanese (which is wrong btw, most cheap imports are Chinese - I wont lecture you on geography tonight though) is just plain stupid. Little ole you aint going to halt commercial progress. Get used to it.

The Japanese introduced flarenut connections to splits and precharging condensers to the market. They also introduced fault codes so they were responsible for deskilling. No one mentioned cheap imports so just as well you avoided the geography lesson...


The 'mystic art' still exists. Builders and plumbers aint going to have the skills or equipment to tackle serious refrig work. Sure, they can plug in a DIY cheapo unit, but so can householders, so why the fuss? I made that point originally, but hey, why let facts get in the way of a high-handed opinion?

Because handling refrigerants is a legal obligation.



You miss the point again. The perception of the government 'protecting' our industry is rubbish. 2079, Fgas, ACRIB, C&G - all toothless with no remit or desire to act against cowboys. They may go after someone if they get dobbed in, but thats about it. Otherwise, they are all just making money - effectively taxing you to work whilst putting up a thin vale or promise of protecting your income. They prey on enough mugs believing in their illusion to get away with the scam. Nuff said;-)

No one is arguing that the reg's have been badly implimented, or that the laws have been poorly thought out.However over time that will change.. provided we are prepared to impliment and assist.



Oh, behave. When little old ladies are still getting scammed by dodgy builders, roofers, plumbers etc, not to mention the likes of the banking industry being allowed to bring whole nations to their knees, do you honestly think that anyone is going to protect customers in our trade?

So you pick on 3 trades which don't have regulatory bodies to back up your argument! Great work Sherlock..


Those comments are both personal and defamatory. I appreciate you don't know me and I'm guessing that you've formed an opinion on me based on what I've posted previously, but you really do not want to be going around saying things like that in a public arena. Please remove those comments immediately.

You over estimate your importance to me: I don't know you and I don't particulary care about you. Certainly not enough to read any of your previous posts. However you are either part of the solution or part of the problem. You deny there are bodgers within this industry and don't see the need to upskill those currently working within it , so to me you are part of the problem..





It's a shame you decided to get personal when I was only adding to the debate.

I'm also surprised the mods let you get away with making such random, peurile and ill-informed comments.

Frankly my dear I don't give a damn..

andychill
16-04-2010, 11:26 PM
Hey, Multi.

I think you're hilarious mate! Your rants now have an edgy, slightly 'about to go off on one' feel about them, which is ace entertainment.

Keep on deluding yourself that all those bits of official paper and certificates are really needed to carry on working.

You go on ignoring the facts.

Carry on making ignorant, ill informed judgments of anyone who rattles your cozy, sleepy, old-timer's comfort zone..ZZZzzzzzzzzzzzz

multisync
19-04-2010, 10:46 AM
Hey, Multi.

I think you're hilarious mate! Your rants now have an edgy, slightly 'about to go off on one' feel about them, which is ace entertainment.

Keep on deluding yourself that all those bits of official paper and certificates are really needed to carry on working.

You go on ignoring the facts.

Carry on making ignorant, ill informed judgments of anyone who rattles your cozy, sleepy, old-timer's comfort zone..ZZZzzzzzzzzzzzz

Another one bites the dust..

Thanks for playing. Do come back if you ever manage to get a cohesive argument going...

andychill
19-04-2010, 11:58 PM
Another one bites the dust..

Thanks for playing. Do come back if you ever manage to get a cohesive argument going...

I think I made my points quite well. You lowered the tone (not to mention your credibility) by getting personal and high-handed.

If you want to have a serious debate, I'll slug it out with you, no problem. If you want to d**k wave or pull rank on grounds of seniority, well, you just can do one and save us all the hassle.

Over to you, big boy.

multisync
20-04-2010, 07:10 AM
I think I made my points quite well. You lowered the tone (not to mention your credibility) by getting personal and high-handed.

If you want to have a serious debate, I'll slug it out with you, no problem. If you want to d**k wave or pull rank on grounds of seniority, well, you just can do one and save us all the hassle.

Over to you, big boy.

Oh ok, you feel you were doing good..Crumbs, call me old fashoned!

Right for some reason you brought up the banking industry as part of your anti 'argument'

Cyclops has now gone on record that he made a mistake



"In the 1990s, the banks, they all came to us and said, 'Look, we don't want to be regulated, we want to be free of regulation.' ... And all the complaints I was getting from people was, 'Look you're regulating them too much.'
"The truth is that globally and nationally we should have been regulating them more. So I've learnt from that."


So again you bring in a topic which defeats your own argument. I guess you can understand why I feel Your 'argument' (for what it is) is a poorly made up ramble lacking in clarity and detail.

It appears: Your last two posts have added nothing to the debate and seem to have been posted for two reasons
1 The need to post back coz you're all hurt like
2 You don't actually have anything of merit to add

Come back when you can make a cohesive argument against regulation of our industry -not just certain sections- whilst incorporating technicalities such as 'hazardous waste' 'illegal venting' etc.

If you're not part of the solution, you are part of the problem..

Over to you

andychill
20-04-2010, 11:51 AM
Oh ok, you feel you were doing good..Crumbs, call me old fashoned!

Right for some reason you brought up the banking industry as part of your anti 'argument'

Cyclops has now gone on record that he made a mistake


So again you bring in a topic which defeats your own argument. I guess you can understand why I feel Your 'argument' (for what it is) is a poorly made up ramble lacking in clarity and detail.

It appears: Your last two posts have added nothing to the debate and seem to have been posted for two reasons
1 The need to post back coz you're all hurt like
2 You don't actually have anything of merit to add

Come back when you can make a cohesive argument against regulation of our industry -not just certain sections- whilst incorporating technicalities such as 'hazardous waste' 'illegal venting' etc.

If you're not part of the solution, you are part of the problem..

Over to you

Dear oh dear. Do you talk in corporate cliches as well as peppering your posts with them, or is that just for me?

And using a silly Gordon Brown statement is not exactly inspiring either. The comment I made about the banking industry was something I used in the moment. I dont recal ever holding that up as beacon of shining industrial govenance, but feel free to misquote me whenever takes your fancy.

I'll write up my side of the argument against regulation when I get a spare half hour. Maybe you can refrain from posting your ludite-esque ramblings long enough for me to educate you....:D

andychill
21-04-2010, 12:00 AM
I think the main areas where we fundamentally disagree, Multi, are those concerning general governance of the industry and protecting the income streams of professionals working within it.

I was once both CORGI and NIC EIC registered as well, was suitably qualified in both disciplines, and I know how their registration schemes work first-hand.

The CORGI scheme is a perfect example of a money-making scam which deluded its membership into thinking that those engineers and operatives who did the training courses and paid their annual subscriptions would get the chance to operate in a cowboy free environment.

CORGI started out as a membership scheme which later became compulsory by legislation. Non-registered cowboy gas fitters have rightly been locked up or fined for varying crimes over the years.

How odd, then, that unregistered gas fitters are usually only prosecuted when committing a technical offence – IE; they’ll get any amount of threats and nasty letters for doing gas work whilst non-registered, but they only ever get taken to court when they do something which is of a serious nature (such as blowing up a dwelling etc) or otherwise commit a serious breach or contravention of the gas regulations (almost blowing up a dwelling etc.)

And guess what? Registered gas fitters are only ever prosecuted for committing the same offences.

There is no leniency one way or the other. If you do something seriously wrong – registered or not - you’ll either do time or pay a fine.

Lastly, why do you think CAPITA made an ultimately successful bid for the UK gas registration scheme, which neatly sidelined the original arbiters of gas safety? Altruism?

The electrical industry registration scheme is a joke as well and is a perfect example of how to rip-off a large sector of an otherwise very savvy industry; if you register to be a Part P installer you can carry out work in private dwellings - as long as you pay a tax each time. Cool.

Mind, if you’re not a Part P installer, you can still work in the commercial sector, putting in all manner of systems and machinery etc, all with no qualifications or mandatory scheme membership requirements.

How can it be right to compel a tradesman, by law, to inform NIC / EIC / CORGI / Gas Safe / Building Regulations every time a small electrical job is done in a private house, and to make also him pay a couple of quid as a tax – Every Time - for the privilege, whilst allowing commercial work to go completely unchecked and unregulated?

Sounding more like a like a scam to you yet?? How about working out how many dwellings there are in the country compared to the number of commercial buildings? Hmm.

Those fellow professional tradesmen already pay out huge amounts out for training, re-training, certification, membership fees and work registration fees, and for what commercial advantage? Absolutely jack sh** in real terms because if they make a mistake, they’ll get the same punishment as a cowboy would, and said cowboy will meanwhile go completely unpunished until (or if) he makes a mistake.

Oh, and each so-called trade scheme is legally unable to prosecute anyone in the UK. The good old Health and Safety Executive are the only body allowed to bring criminal charges.

Anyone who thinks a compulsory regulation scheme for the refrigeration industry is a good idea is, in my humble opinion, deluded.

For the record; I have a current qualification which ‘licenses’ me to handle all modern refrigerants. I’ll do the 2079 course when I’m due to take it, not before. What's the betting that however hard I might try, I'll easily pass the test in exchange for parting with a large cheque?

multisync
21-04-2010, 02:27 PM
I think the main areas where we fundamentally disagree, Multi, are those concerning general governance of the industry and protecting the income streams of professionals working within it.

I suspect we don't fundamentally disagree but lets see..


I was once both CORGI and NIC EIC registered as well, was suitably qualified in both disciplines, and I know how their registration schemes work first-hand.

The CORGI scheme is a perfect example of a money-making scam which deluded its membership into thinking that those engineers and operatives who did the training courses and paid their annual subscriptions would get the chance to operate in a cowboy free environment.CORGI started out as a membership scheme which later became compulsory by legislation. Non-registered cowboy gas fitters have rightly been locked up or fined for varying crimes over the years. So fundamentally it is a good scheme and possibly would have done exactly what it was originally intended to do?


How odd, then, that unregistered gas fitters are usually only prosecuted when committing a technical offence – IE; they’ll get any amount of threats and nasty letters for doing gas work whilst non-registered, but they only ever get taken to court when they do something which is of a serious nature (such as blowing up a dwelling etc) or otherwise commit a serious breach or contravention of the gas regulations (almost blowing up a dwelling etc.)

And guess what? Registered gas fitters are only ever prosecuted for committing the same offences.
There is no leniency one way or the other. If you do something seriously wrong – registered or not - you’ll either do time or pay a fine.Which is how it should be registered or not. If registered you should be forced to retrain (depending upon seriousness) if unregistered just fined/jailed according to severity.


Lastly, why do you think CAPITA made an ultimately successful bid for the UK gas registration scheme, which neatly sidelined the original arbiters of gas safety? Altruism?My understanding was that it was taken away from Corgi because it was too slow to follow up the cowboy's. I also am led to believe GasSafe are faring better but that might just be the new boy showing off stuff...However the introduction of Corgi did reduce the amount of non skilled workers. Sadly it failed to enforce the regs.
However I do wonder if the CPS would just turn around and tell them they wouldn't prosecute Joe blogs as he only changed the pilot and it looked ok and it will take years to come to court and is it really worth the effort? etc etc. Not Corgi's fault but I guess they get the blame..

I don't know if anyone saw the cowboy builders on C5 last night. They had a ParP job and a gas job and the gas guy only gave his first name so they blured his face and he walked out scott free. Supposedly the builder who did the partP wiring has been reported to trading standards and I wonder if a court case will happen?
http://demand.five.tv/Episode.aspx?episodeBaseName=C5146150002


The electrical industry registration scheme is a joke as well and is a perfect example of how to rip-off a large sector of an otherwise very savvy industry; if you register to be a Part P installer you can carry out work in private dwellings - as long as you pay a tax each time. Cool.

Mind, if you’re not a Part P installer, you can still work in the commercial sector, putting in all manner of systems and machinery etc, all with no qualifications or mandatory scheme membership requirements.

How can it be right to compel a tradesman, by law, to inform NIC / EIC / CORGI / Gas Safe / Building Regulations every time a small electrical job is done in a private house, and to make also him pay a couple of quid as a tax – Every Time - for the privilege, whilst allowing commercial work to go completely unchecked and unregulated? Part P was brought in directly because of the death of an MP's daughter. It is also believed a commercial Part P is fully expected to be implemented. Perhaps if she had been a worker not a student??

We do the odd electrical install too but not certificate.



Sounding more like a like a scam to you yet?? How about working out how many dwellings there are in the country compared to the number of commercial buildings? Hmm.

Those fellow professional tradesmen already pay out huge amounts out for training, re-training, certification, membership fees and work registration fees, and for what commercial advantage? Absolutely jack sh** in real terms because if they make a mistake, they’ll get the same punishment as a cowboy would, and said cowboy will meanwhile go completely unpunished until (or if) he makes a mistake.

Oh, and each so-called trade scheme is legally unable to prosecute anyone in the UK. The good old Health and Safety Executive are the only body allowed to bring criminal charges. Again this is the human rights lobby not the regulators who are causing this issue.


Anyone who thinks a compulsory regulation scheme for the refrigeration industry is a good idea is, in my humble opinion, deluded.Probably more of an idealist rather than deluded. I have said on this and many other threads that the scheme is already a joke with training companies cutting corners, engineers refusing to get safe handling let alone 2079 trade counters carrying on selling to them even though they are well aware, Ebay

well the list is long but I remain convinced that regulation is needed it's the implementation of the reg's which are a dismal failure...
20 years ago I would have been in complete agreement. Now the world has changed. How can we be licensed hazardous waste handlers but remain un regulated? How can it be illegal to vent but remain unqualified or untrained. ?

Part of the problem is the interference of lawyers. They have already insisted on REFCOM allowing others to have a register (quidos etc) as it's a breach of human rights not too! Same for the selling of refrigerant rather than the buying.

I believe a properly run scheme is necessary and would benefit both the industry and the end user. Sadly vested interests have done all they can to torpedo the legislation c/w those willing to circumnavigate the rules for a fast buck. We also have a lot of foreign labour operating in the Uk and It's probably best we ensure they operate to our standards and not what they do whereever they come from...


For the record; I have a current qualification which ‘licenses’ me to handle all modern refrigerants. I’ll do the 2079 course when I’m due to take it, not before. What's the betting that however hard I might try, I'll easily pass the test in exchange for parting with a large cheque?If you need help I can point out one who does exactly that for 600 quid..you probably don’t even need to be there....!

However I have heard C&G are looking at those trainers with an unusually high % first time pass rate..

andychill
21-04-2010, 11:08 PM
Thanks for the constructive argument, Multi. Much appreciated.

I'm not able to post much right now as I'm off to do an emergency call, but I'll follow up my comments and also try to pick over your post and respond in kind over the next couple of days.

andychill
23-04-2010, 09:33 PM
I suspect we don't fundamentally disagree but lets see..

So fundamentally it is a good scheme and possibly would have done exactly what it was originally intended to do?

The intention was probably right in the first instance in that a trade organisation was created which presumably planned to self govern its members. As soon as the government got involved, it became a cash cow.

If registered you should be forced to retrain (depending upon seriousness) if unregistered just fined/jailed according to severity.

If your defective work has just killed someone, or left them seriously injured etc, you are going to do some pokey - I have no problem with the principle of that.

What we're talking about here though is you wanting already trained refrigeration engineers to jump through hoops on a regular basis - which costs them a fortune in the process of doing so - which does little more than line the pockets of the treasury and a bunch of thieving training companies who had the foresight (or contacts in the right places) to set up shop just before the govt introduced the legislation. Sorry, but that is just plain wrong.

My understanding was that it was taken away from Corgi because it was too slow to follow up the cowboy's.

No. CORGI lost out on the franchise as they didn't generate enough cash for the government. CAPITA made the highest bid and won the deal. Dont get me started on how many govt contracts they hold, or who the shareholders are...

I also am led to believe GasSafe are faring better but that might just be the new boy showing off stuff...However the introduction of Corgi did reduce the amount of non skilled workers. Sadly it failed to enforce the regs.

Gas Safe will fail to enforce the regs as well. It's about revenue, not safety! Sure, they'll do and and say all the right things when required, and they'll play the game. Bottopm line is cash though. if it wasn't that way, they'd be all over the installers like a rash.

However I do wonder if the CPS would just turn around and tell them they wouldn't prosecute Joe blogs as he only changed the pilot and it looked ok and it will take years to come to court and is it really worth the effort? etc etc. Not Corgi's fault but I guess they get the blame..

Little things like that aren't even any where near the radar. The big problems will get sorted out, explosions, C0 poisonings etc, but thats it. They dont have the man power to do anything else - "gotta keep the costs down or the shareholders wont get a dividend, eh??"

Part P was brought in directly because of the death of an MP's daughter. It is also believed a commercial Part P is fully expected to be implemented. Perhaps if she had been a worker not a student??

That was probably the excuse. The net effect has been to generate millions off the back of it. Ask your local building regs department how they like coping with the thousands of extra registered building regs notes as a result of Part P;-)



Probably more of an idealist rather than deluded. I have said on this and many other threads that the scheme is already a joke with training companies cutting corners, engineers refusing to get safe handling let alone 2079 trade counters carrying on selling to them even though they are well aware, Ebay

Well said. That paragraph cuts through everything I and others have said over and over. The training co's are embarrassingly sh1t. Filling in forms with a pencil, invigilators leaving the room during exams, back door payments - the list is endless.

well the list is long but I remain convinced that regulation is needed it's the implementation of the reg's which are a dismal failure...

If your after a better, more professional industry, then I agree 100%.

Bending over and letting yourself get shafted by legislation that is in place specifically to generate money for the govenment and a whole host of chancers who are simply making a wedge off the back of front-line engineers is wrong. Period.

20 years ago I would have been in complete agreement. Now the world has changed.

No, the world hasn't changed. Peoples perspective on it has been bent by spin, lies and corruption. The fundamentals are still there; do a decent job, get paid for it, dont rip anyone off, feed your kids, take a holiday etc.

It isnt difficult.

Sure, new and better work practices nned to be taken on board all the time. I'm not suggesting that we all bury our heads and assume that we know whats best all the time. But dancing to the tune of smart-mouthed, for-profit, self interested - yet ultimately toothless, organisations isn't for me. I'll do the basics that keep me on the right side of the law, but I aint paying for it - trust me;-)


How can we be licensed hazardous waste handlers but remain un regulated? How can it be illegal to vent but remain unqualified or untrained. ?

Good point. And why is still OK to vent all those billions of aerosols around the world?

Part of the problem is the interference of lawyers. They have already insisted on REFCOM allowing others to have a register (quidos etc) as it's a breach of human rights not too! Same for the selling of refrigerant rather than the buying.


I believe a properly run scheme is necessary and would benefit both the industry and the end user. Sadly vested interests have done all they can to torpedo the legislation c/w those willing to circumnavigate the rules for a fast buck. We also have a lot of foreign labour operating in the Uk and It's probably best we ensure they operate to our standards and not what they do whereever they come from...

If you need help I can point out one who does exactly that for 600 quid..you probably don’t even need to be there....!

However I have heard C&G are looking at those trainers with an unusually high % first time pass rate..

Could go on and on, Multi. Its friday night though. Been a long week, mate;-)

paul thompson
24-04-2010, 12:17 AM
andy chill ,dont get involled with multisync . he.s a smart arse wind up merchant . just get on with our job AND ENJOY the wonderful trade we do .tradesman shouldn.t get involved in title tattle , trying to out smart each other NOT GOOD.i thought this forum was about sharing knowledge . not being a **** .

Grizzly
24-04-2010, 09:31 AM
andy chill ,dont get involled with multisync . he.s a smart arse wind up merchant . just get on with our job AND ENJOY the wonderful trade we do .tradesman shouldn.t get involved in title tattle , trying to out smart each other NOT GOOD.i thought this forum was about sharing knowledge . not being a **** .


So if you don't agree with someone Paul you just bad mouth them?
I was staying out of what was at times quite heated verbally.
But if you read it without a preformed opinion, you should realise both Andy and Multisync had good points.
Sometimes at the opposite end of the argument
BUT normally constructive!
Which is what we are all after at the end is it not.
Yes you are correct some of the comments made on this forum can get a bit to personal and some seem to touch nerves more than some.
But as my previously old wizened boss's said to me when I apologised for ranting on about a particular related subject. "That's alright! You Care!"

Besides I don't know an engineer "worth his salt", that does not enjoy a good moan occasionally.

Historically Multisync has put the opposite argument
to many on a particular thread.
Which has not always been too everyones taste.
Never the less they are normally based on real experience and not hypothetical experience.
Which some seem to base their opinions on.

I to could name a few ****s on this forum and there are a few I stay away from myself.
But Hey life goes on!
I am not trying to have a go at you by the way, just saying it as I see it, like yourself I guess.
Cheers Grizzly;)