Where are the apprentices??

[chillermanuk]

Hi Guys,

I normally just sit back, keep my mouth shut and get on with things but Im getting worried and just wondering is it just me.

I run a small AC company- Banbury Air Conditioning, we mainly specialise in chiller, have about 20 years experience and business is good. Im also an Air Conditioning Energy assessor, and a trainer and examiner for both.

Ive recently been trying to recruit more engineers for our install side and am dismayed at the results- heres a snap shot!
Out of the ten Ive interviewed;

60 % couldnt explain superheat
70% couldnt explain what icing on the suction pipe by the condenser meant,

1 guy had been installing aircon for three years on his own, from start to finish and hadnt EVER used a set of guages or a Vac pump!. Was told it took too long to pressure test or vac and on splits it would be fine if he just purged!.

Am I the only one finding it difficult to recruit proper engineers???????

Thanks guys.

[Brian_UK]

In response to your thread title, do you take on apprentices for ongoing training or do you provide apprenticeships.

[taz24]

Hi Guys,

I normally just sit back, keep my mouth shut and get on with things but Im getting worried and just wondering is it just me.

I run a small AC company- Banbury Air Conditioning, we mainly specialise in chiller, have about 20 years experience and business is good. Im also an Air Conditioning Energy assessor, and a trainer and examiner for both.

Ive recently been trying to recruit more engineers for our install side and am dismayed at the results- heres a snap shot!
Out of the ten Ive interviewed;

60 % couldnt explain superheat
70% couldnt explain what icing on the suction pipe by the condenser meant,

1 guy had been installing aircon for three years on his own, from start to finish and hadnt EVER used a set of guages or a Vac pump!. Was told it took too long to pressure test or vac and on splits it would be fine if he just purged!.

Am I the only one finding it difficult to recruit proper engineers???????

Thanks guys.


I'm a trainer and assessor now but have been a fridge engineer for 30 years, I have seen everything
from eighties till now. A lack of apprentices is not new, most companies refuse to invest in training
and we are now where we are because of it.

As an assessor it scares me that some so called engineers I am called on to assess, do not know how
to fit a set of gauges and use them.

But we are our own worst enemy, the industry I mean. We want highly skilled engineers with lots of
experience but will not invest 5 years training youngsters.

Also skill levels have fallen, because most commercial systems now do not need repairing, they only
need components replacing, so true engineers are not the same as they were even ten years ago.

Cheers taz.

[Clk320_Greg]

The time i served as an "apprentice" was truely bad. I was with a small firm who has some blue chip work.

To paint you a picture "superheat" was never spoken about.

All my training came out of my own pocket, my Refrigerant Handeling, my BOC courses, my welding courses the lot. And for the first 2 years i was on basically 3PPH. Worked on the doors to be able to subserdise my training into the industry i wanted to be in.

Many time i tried to find other firms to take me on, but TBH none of them were offering much better and it was a case of stick to what you know. The work was there and i got hands on of all systems from tiny splits to VRV's.

Even now im a one man band i still often come accross terms and phrases i dont understand, thankfully im a quick learner and have been devouring refrigeration manuals ever since!


I supose what im saying is dont judge the engineer as "bad" because of his lack of knolege, see him for his potential!

[eggs]

I see apprentices as the only way forward in this industry.

Although I have been going for 10 years or so now, it's only the last few that I have been growing my company and even though we are still a micro company (just 5 of us), every now and again we have to use subbies.........and the standard of subbies available to start work immediately is SHOCKING.

It cost us nowt for our apprentice, his NVQ is funded as long as we pay his wages on college days. We pay him £200/week and to be truthful he saves us more than this just popping out for tea and just running to Kooltech for bits and bobs.
He has been with us for about 12 months and started his C&G a few months ago, already he is mostly proficient in the nuts and bolts install of A/C, fridge and ductwork systems.........why has every company not got one?:confused:

Yes I've had some $hit ones in the past, but you have to try them.....for the sake of £200/week, you never know you might just get a gem.

eggs

[Brian_UK]

Good for you Eggs, way to go :)

[bryanbeech]

Hi Guys,

I normally just sit back, keep my mouth shut and get on with things but Im getting worried and just wondering is it just me.

I run a small AC company- Banbury Air Conditioning, we mainly specialise in chiller, have about 20 years experience and business is good. Im also an Air Conditioning Energy assessor, and a trainer and examiner for both.

Ive recently been trying to recruit more engineers for our install side and am dismayed at the results- heres a snap shot!
Out of the ten Ive interviewed;

60 % couldnt explain superheat
70% couldnt explain what icing on the suction pipe by the condenser meant,

1 guy had been installing aircon for three years on his own, from start to finish and hadnt EVER used a set of guages or a Vac pump!. Was told it took too long to pressure test or vac and on splits it would be fine if he just purged!.

Am I the only one finding it difficult to recruit proper engineers???????

Thanks guys.


I take it by the word apprentices, you are on about a 16-18 year old. paying them nmw and getting the goverment to fund the so called training costs.

so they wont really know about superheat, subcooling, or anything about the basic refrigeration cycle until you show/tell them. That is why you call APPRENTICES, That is why you pay them minimum wage.

Give them a break, Im starting out on my own after xmas as im fed up with so called small firms only willing to pay pitance for a trainee, I spent 3 years and a lot of money, working for free getting my certs. only to be told "I will pay you £5.50 hour and you can claim tax credits" when i apply for jobs.

So i will be looking for a so called trainee soon and im sure i will pay them a liverble wage and treat them with a bit of respect, even if they are a chavy school drop out!!:rolleyes:

[taz24]

I take it by the word apprentices, you are on about a 16-18 year old. paying them nmw and getting the goverment to fund the so called training costs.

so they wont really know about superheat, subcooling, or anything about the basic refrigeration cycle until you show/tell them. That is why you call APPRENTICES, That is why you pay them minimum wage.

Give them a break, Im starting out on my own after xmas as im fed up with so called small firms only willing to pay pitance for a trainee, I spent 3 years and a lot of money, working for free getting my certs. only to be told "I will pay you £5.50 hour and you can claim tax credits" when i apply for jobs.

So i will be looking for a so called trainee soon and im sure i will pay them a liverble wage and treat them with a bit of respect, even if they are a chavy school drop out!!:rolleyes:


A lot of apprentices are family members, refrigeration is a very incestuous trade. Apprentices are expensive and when they are qualified they can walk into almost any job and earn real money.
I know of a lot of people who have worked on minimum wage untill they get experience and then go after the money.

Way of the world I'm afraid.

taz.

[thebigcheese]

eggs did i not read a post from u once swearing u would never employ a youth again?

[The Viking]

It's not the kids.

Nor the "industry".

Blame the society...


Twenty, thirty years ago engineering was a reputable occupation. The brightest kids in a class might go on and become doctors or lawyers but the second lot down would certainly look in to engineering or book keeping...

Nowadays, you are looking at a generation who rate engineering about as highly as they do flipping burgers at McD. They don't want to get their hands dirty or wear PPE, all they aspire to are to sit (like a vegetable) in front of a computer screen.

Further more, when most of us grew up things were repaired. Anything broke, it was repaired. Washing machine, fridge or cooker didn't matter, it was repaired. As soon as our mothers let us we hung over the shoulders of repair guys taking things apart.

Nowadays everything are just thrown away.

As or society has changed so has the kids dreams and their views of the future.
The only thing we can do is to enjoy it, see it from the bright side. As time goes by, those of us with a "proper engineering" background are getting fewer and fewer, all these kids sitting in front of their computer screens will soon realise that there are plenty of people who can sit in front a screen but only a handful of people able to give them a cold beer and a comms room that doesn't topple over.
How much will they have to pay us then?


And Eggs,
Why do you think they can start immediately?
Maybe the good ones are to busy?
Or maybe the good ones demands more money?


Dear lord, please let me be one of the good ones...

[Sridhar1312]

Yes it is natural any one learning to be on growing economically is good it is cycle and we need to keep training and benefit for both. If they work for you two to three years after a year of training it is still good.

[Colin G]

the way i see is that any tom, **** or harry can go to college and learn about latent heat but its not untill your out on the feild you start learning and coming into your own. Some employers need to employ a little more trust in aspiring trainees as if it isnt going to work out they will realise very quickly.

[eggs]

eggs did i not read a post from u once swearing u would never employ a youth again?

You did, the tread (http://www.refrigeration-engineer.com/forums/showthread.php?p=170956#post170956) was recently brought back to life, from 5 years ago :eek: where does time go ??




And Eggs,
Why do you think they can start immediately?
Maybe the good ones are to busy?
Or maybe the good ones demands more money?

Have you read my post correctly? :confused: The one's who can start immediately are the chaff, the good ones are too busy ?? That is what I said. Isn't it ??

Eggs

[thebigcheese]

yea time flys alright, sure i once said that i was only doing refrigeration to get me some extra money while on school holidays

[REDX]

The industry is to blame. I came into this trade approx 3 and a half years ago aged 31+. I started as a install mate, within 4 months was installing on site by myself,when ever i asked people in my firm questions people couldnt answer me, either because they didnt know or didnt want you knowing more.
I paid to go to college myself, college only learns you the basics, the practical side you carry out an installation, learn how to braze etc. Fault finding is not carried out because the lecturers tell you ITS YOUR COMPANYS RESPONSIBILITY to teach you fault finding!! I now service/fault find most of the time, I have had no fault finding training from my employers ive picked things up from books etc which ive spent a lot of money on (some wasted).
What ive seen and believe lets this industry down is : no training from employers, alot of engineers lacking in knowledge due to no training, companies advertising for engineers and expect people to know everything!! The word training does not exist!
I work for a firm that has four service guys employed apart from myself, who have been in the trade 8 years plus, I have been servicing for approx 1 and a half years taking time off from all the install work I might still carry out from time to time. What really cheeses me off is these guys ask me questions on some problems and cannot answer my questions if im stuck on somrthing. THIS IS ALL DOWN TO NO TRAINING /APPRENTISHIPS.
I still have a hell of a lot to learn and i mean a hell of a lot, what can you do when you dont get sent on training courses? The only thing you can do is come on websites like this and learn from you guys. I would like to work for a firm who have experienced enginners who know the answers if you get a problem you havent seen before, the problem is companys only want people who can fix just about everything. What happens to the guy in the middle, a guy who doesnt know everything but wants too!

[croc1774]

Hello Redx, i totally agree with you.Senior engineers where i use to work felt threatened by new people starting in the company.They treated them like s...t and after a few months without the proper training would send them out on on with no back up what so ever.OH and they would charge them out at full rate.I no on occassions when they got stuck they would call MD only to be told "if you cant do it, best you look for another f.....g . Not very professional i no, thats why i left.Its all about helping the next generation and working together as a team.1 apprentice i no was even brought to tears when the MD stood there shouting and swearing at him, because he was unsure of something.hence probably why this company has had 100+ engineers through its doors in less than 10 years.The apprentice is now in his second year at college and been with the company for 5 years but is still on less than £8 an hour lol. they sent him out on his own with no back up what so ever.

p.s he is looking at getting out of this company if anyone can help him

[olddog]

Old saying that I first came across in the aviation maintenance business :

"If you think training is expensive then try the alternative"

It sometimes seems that our business has not matured enough to understand this.

I cant help thinking that some manufacturers like to limit contractor system knowledge ( and thus fault finding ability ) to maximize spare part sales.

How many times have you all called up tech support with a fault description only to be told to replace multiple parts ?

[taz24]

The industry is to blame. I came into this trade approx 3 and a half years ago aged 31+. I started as a install mate, within 4 months was installing on site by myself,when ever i asked people in my firm questions people couldnt answer me, either because they didnt know or didnt want you knowing more.
I paid to go to college myself, college only learns you the basics, the practical side you carry out an installation, learn how to braze etc. Fault finding is not carried out because the lecturers tell you ITS YOUR COMPANYS RESPONSIBILITY to teach you fault finding!! I now service/fault find most of the time, I have had no fault finding training from my employers ive picked things up from books etc which ive spent a lot of money on (some wasted).
What ive seen and believe lets this industry down is : no training from employers, alot of engineers lacking in knowledge due to no training, companies advertising for engineers and expect people to know everything!! The word training does not exist!
I work for a firm that has four service guys employed apart from myself, who have been in the trade 8 years plus, I have been servicing for approx 1 and a half years taking time off from all the install work I might still carry out from time to time. What really cheeses me off is these guys ask me questions on some problems and cannot answer my questions if im stuck on somrthing. THIS IS ALL DOWN TO NO TRAINING /APPRENTISHIPS.
I still have a hell of a lot to learn and i mean a hell of a lot, what can you do when you dont get sent on training courses? The only thing you can do is come on websites like this and learn from you guys. I would like to work for a firm who have experienced enginners who know the answers if you get a problem you havent seen before, the problem is companys only want people who can fix just about everything. What happens to the guy in the middle, a guy who doesnt know everything but wants too!

You make a valid point and in truth I have no real answers for you but I would say.

You are makeing a difference and you are proving to other you are not affriad to learn.

I have been in the trade for 30 years and I still learn new things. When people stop asking
question that is when you should worry. Nobody knows everything. Even with just 3 years
experience, I bet there are afew things you could teach me.

Unfortunately we are undervalued by our customer base, as an industry and therefore nobody
wants to invest in new blood.

But I would chalenge any employer to just employ anybody to do the job and they won't be able to.
Refrigeration and air-conditioning engineers are highly skilled and that skill does not happen over night.

You have the right attitude and will go far.
Don't stop asking how and why!!

All the best

taz

.

.

[REDX]

Thanks for the follow on posts guys.I would just like to say the knowledge you guys have answering the questions /problems is absoutely awsome. I enjoy reading posts and taking notes to help me in the industry. Any good tips any one could recommend? I sit and cant believe the knowledge you guys have sometimes it blows me away. Really dont know how i am going to get there at present. Do you need a laptop to faully fault find on a vrv? Also how can I improve my electrical knowledge?, guys at work not great either, books I have bought seem outdated for modern stuff, and most are american.

[taz24]

Thanks for the follow on posts guys.I would just like to say the knowledge you guys have answering the questions /problems is absoutely awsome. I enjoy reading posts and taking notes to help me in the industry. Any good tips any one could recommend? I sit and cant believe the knowledge you guys have sometimes it blows me away. Really dont know how i am going to get there at present. Do you need a laptop to faully fault find on a vrv? Also how can I improve my electrical knowledge?, guys at work not great either, books I have bought seem outdated for modern stuff, and most are american.


The thing with books is they can't keep up with modern tecnnologies. Controls change from one system to another.

What I would recomend though is all the big names out there do product awareness training and they will guid you very well to specific problems.

All the best

taz.

.

[samabraham]

sir, I want make one chiller of 300ltr which can maintain of temp -40 to -20 c . so please help me to find the size of compressor ,size of condenser,size of evaporator,size of txv.which can cool in 2 hrs.

[Benjimo]

I'm a 4th year apprentice and I can totally agree with what RedX says. Throughout my apprenticeship I have had very little breakdown experience and I'm paying for it now. As most breakdowns are a one person job there is no need to send an apprentice as we aren't chargeable in that situation, there is no benefit to the company other than the experience the apprentice receives. Most of my jobs involve cleaning filters, taking pressure readings and things of that nature while the tradesmen attend the breakdowns. I have recently been put in a van of my own to do servicing and attend breakdowns and it terrifies me, I can work out most situations, but it takes a little longer than it would if I had the relevant experience and I end up pretty stressed out if there’s something that I can’t figure out. The investment of training an apprentice properly isn’t something that most companies focus on, the financial benefits of getting the apprentice to do the mundane tasks exceeds the need to give the apprentice the skills they need to be a great mechanic.

[REDX]

Thanks for the advice/encouragement Taz 24. I take it, what you say regarding product awareness training refers to daikin/mitsi etc training course?. I have asked many times to be sent on these courses but get the answer THERES NOT ENOUGH MONEY IN THE POT!! I would pay myself to go on these courses but have already spent £3500 on college fees and around £250 on books [some not so good]. I have an understanding wife but where do you stop spending money? I believe some things the company should spend on! Like I said originally though thanks for the advice/encouragement Taz 24 much appreciated.
Hi Benjimo I agree with your comments, maybe we just work for bad companys!! I did get stressed like you, and couldn’t understand why I would be sent to fix something I hadn’t seen before etc, however that does pass in time. Like I said before there is still a hell of a lot for me to learn and the frustrating thing for me and you by the seems of this is we really want to, DON’T GET STRESSED, ITS ONLY A JOB, NOT A LIFE OR DEATH SITUATION, by thinking like this on site I have found I,m more chilled and fault finding becomes easier, what happens if you cant fix it for some reason? The world doesn’t blow up or swallow you up!! The problem is still there however and a few times while lying in bed at night a possible solution has come to me, IF ALL ELSE FAILS ASK THE GUYS ON THIS WEBSITE, PROBLEM SOLVED!!
Best wishes Redx

[wilt]

and here is me and i cant get a job for love nor money been in the game for circa 12 yrs on transport, a/c wont touch me !!