The new F-Gas course?

[Daz man]

Hi folks, bare with me here.

Obviously with the new regulations coming into force I want to just check with everyone whats what.

At this moment intime I have my refrigerant handling (City & Guilds) certificate alongside my (Acrib) photo ID card. I am fully qualified in refrigeration & air conditioning to City & Guilds NVQ level 1,2,3 & 4, with 12 years experience. I am aware my company has just applied recently and received recently the F-Gas certificate, and I understand that most of us ten engineers will by 2011 be sent onto some kind of course.

I have heard all kinds of myths and rumours about this course/exam, from you need 75% to pass, it costs upto £2000 and if you fail well you might aswell pack in the trade. I have also heard that the more senior engineers in our area are considering quitting the trade because they think its just another money making scheme for the training agents. I'm all for keeping incompetent people from doing our job becasue trust me, I've seen some installations and if my standard of work was like this I would be SACKED!

Has anybody attended these courses? And without giving the game away is it as hard as people are making out? With dew point charts/formulas etc.

Thanks in advance

Darren :rolleyes:

[Brian_UK]

I think that you have heard a few tall tales. :)

The cost is about a quarter of your figure, although of course there is you downtime as far as earning money goes.

I've recently completed a course which I found reasonably straight forward. No trick questions or knowledge requirements outside basic refrigeration knowledge.

Two of the guys on the course were on the edge of what we do. One was a domestic technician whose tasks may be to swap out a dead compressor/drier and recharge to weight. The other actually installed mobil kit to trucks and was not involved with the commissioning or service of them.

Both of these men, with the help of the knowledge around them learnt a great deal and got through the course. It didn't make "refrigeration engineers" but made them aware of the reasons for the new laws.

The final exams are multiple choice questions which need careful reading but otherwise should be OK.

Go for it.

[Daz man]

Thanks very much for that Brian, will bare it in mind. Appreciate your response.

[Argus]

.



There's been a bit of confusion lately about the status of the C&G 2078 'safe handling' certificate and the CITB equivalent and as usual, more heat than light in some areas, and I should point out that this is the UK version of EU legislation only.


If obtained prior to March this year the 2078 and CITB certificates should be considered as a transitional qualification for handling refrigerants pending obtaining getting qualified to the new version C&G 2079.
The final deadline is in 2011 when 2078 and existing CITB certificates will be withdrawn..

If you got it after the March 2009 cut-off dates, then it's next to useless and the trainers had no business providing it.

There's a lot of information on the F Gas Support site, a Government-backed consultancy providing advice across the board on F Gas matters.

It's not the easiest site to get around but here's their main site, with some useful reading if you explore the links to the information sheets on the left hand side:

http://www.defra.gov.uk/environment/quality/air/fgas/about.htm


and a page specifically on qualifications that should answer your questions, Information sheet 5 - 'Guidance for Stationary Refrigeration & Air-Conditioning':

http://www.defra.gov.uk/environment/quality/air/fgas/documents/fgassupport-rac5.pdf



.

[colinmcmanus]

Just to put things into perspective Argus we, as trainers were not informed until August by F Gas Support that 2078 had been withdrawn in March.
Do'nt go blaming the trainers, try putting the blame where it should be as usual, on the government

[Argus]

Just to put things into perspective Argus we, as trainers were not informed until August by F Gas Support that 2078 had been withdrawn in March.
Do'nt go blaming the trainers, try putting the blame where it should be as usual, on the government



The Government was late in getting its act together and the EU dithered as much as anyone about the content of the syllabus, getting that agreed at a late stage.


But the fact remains, and was emphasised at all the meetings with DEFRA and BERR I attended, that the qualifications were due to change and had to be aligned with the other EU states. This, with all the dates is in the original Regulation for all to see.


My point and the question asked by many is,

"why were the old qualifications taught (and money change hands in the process) long after the whole industry knew they were on the way out - due for replacement, even if the trainers were uncertain what was to replace them?"


Would it have been too much to ask for a trainer-led moratorium on these qualifications until the government announced the adoption dates and plans for a transitional adoption of the qualifications?



.

[Daz man]

Thanks for that, will give it a go!

[Quality]

Ho Ho Ho Then 3 or 4 years down the road the EU decide that member states must have acredidate certification such as UKAS or equivalent then the current 2079 will be worthless :(

[aircon50]

I would be very interested if anybody could throw any light on the requirements in Spain. It would appear that many Spanish/Canarian 'installers' don't have any certification. There are certainly no questions asked when purchasing refrigerants.
I need to renew my refrigerant handling, but at the moment the cost of travelling to UK, and enrolling on a full course is expensive.
Is there a way I can complete the assessment on-line and do the practical in UK? That way, I need only be away for the minimal amount of time. Thanks. Graham

[airefresco]

I am in pretty much the same boat as Graham, so too would be interested to know.

Some of the Spanish installers do have little green cards which says they can do air conditioning, solar energy and domestic hot water. To get these you need to complete a 3 day course (I think), however I am not sure what it is exactly and if it is equal to the F-gas regs, I assume not as it covers a range of stuff and not just refrigerants.

[colinmcmanus]

We carried on with 2078 by request, from so called "refrigeration engineers", as they saw it as a cheaper way , for the time being, to get around the F Gas Registration Scheme and therfore obtain an interim certificate.

[spimps]

I would be very interested if anybody could throw any light on the requirements in Spain. It would appear that many Spanish/Canarian 'installers' don't have any certification. There are certainly no questions asked when purchasing refrigerants.
I need to renew my refrigerant handling, but at the moment the cost of travelling to UK, and enrolling on a full course is expensive.
Is there a way I can complete the assessment on-line and do the practical in UK? That way, I need only be away for the minimal amount of time. Thanks. Graham
Renewing an already passed safe handling was/is a one day course and exam,straight forward,you have the book to hand with all the answers in,just need to read through if you are unsure.

[Quality]

Renewing was/is a one day course and exam,straight forward,.

depends where you take the course / assesment

[GHAZ]

hi i did the f gas and there were no books ,just a computer ,and a empty room and the mobile telephone was left with the instructor, and the practical was really good with the all scenrios in it,the instructor cut the brazed pipe and checked to see the penetration of the weld, i think it is a good move to seperate the catergories of engineers,for health and safety and customers plant life,

[pendlesteve]

Firstly in answer to Dazman.

You have to perform a practical assessment which involves a variety of tasks most engineers can easily do. The on line theory has 40 questions with a choice of 4 answers. You must achieve 60% correct to pass. Enthalpy charts do come into the training and assessments but as trainers we have no idea what questions each candidate will be asked, they are purely random and come from a total of over 400.
If you know your job and certainly as far as the company I work for goes, read the course notes we send out.
We offer 3 options, 1 day which is assessment only (siutable only for the brave) 2 day, assessment with theory training & 3 day which is practical training as the rigs can be daunting to some, theory & then assessment. We've found many go for the 2 day option.

Secondly, I have to support colinmcmanus in confirming we were not informed about the reduced validity of 2078 parts 1 & 2. As trainers, yes we will make money from the new qualifications but please remember we are only the men in the middle. Government, UK and EU have brought this about. We have had to invest a substancial amount of money in new rigs that meet the requirements of C&G and Constructionskills along with new presentations, more computers and all the extra paperwork involved.

Finally to everyone here in the UK, sorry but you're going to have to do it or you will not be able to work.
I'm in favour of better qualifications as this will lead to a better industry by getting rid of those who should not be in it. Many posts on here moan about things like the public buying direct. Well if split AC systems are eventualy shipped without refrigerant then direct purchases should cease. If people can't buy refrigerant because they don't hold a qualification allowing them to do so there will be improvements.
Please do not knock what good such legislation can do for us all.

[colinmcmanus]

Firstly in answer to Dazman.

You have to perform a practical assessment which involves a variety of tasks most engineers can easily do. The on line theory has 40 questions with a choice of 4 answers. You must achieve 60% correct to pass. Enthalpy charts do come into the training and assessments but as trainers we have no idea what questions each candidate will be asked, they are purely random and come from a total of over 400.
If you know your job and certainly as far as the company I work for goes, read the course notes we send out.
We offer 3 options, 1 day which is assessment only (siutable only for the brave) 2 day, assessment with theory training & 3 day which is practical training as the rigs can be daunting to some, theory & then assessment. We've found many go for the 2 day option.

Secondly, I have to support colinmcmanus in confirming we were not informed about the reduced validity of 2078 parts 1 & 2. As trainers, yes we will make money from the new qualifications but please remember we are only the men in the middle. Government, UK and EU have brought this about. We have had to invest a substancial amount of money in new rigs that meet the requirements of C&G and Constructionskills along with new presentations, more computers and all the extra paperwork involved.

Finally to everyone here in the UK, sorry but you're going to have to do it or you will not be able to work.
I'm in favour of better qualifications as this will lead to a better industry by getting rid of those who should not be in it. Many posts on here moan about things like the public buying direct. Well if split AC systems are eventualy shipped without refrigerant then direct purchases should cease. If people can't buy refrigerant because they don't hold a qualification allowing them to do so there will be improvements.
Please do not knock what good such legislation can do for us all.

Thanks for the support pendlesteve, we as trainers only follow the information issued to us by government, we don't form the legislation only carry out their wishes.
We also have had to invest a considerable amount in new eqipment, presentaions and course notes etc. So please don't keep knocking the trainers, we are your only road to qualification.

[paul thompson]

Renewing an already passed safe handling was/is a one day course and exam,straight forward,you have the book to hand with all the answers in,just need to read through if you are unsure.
not on the course i did , there where no books to hand . just a computer to take the gola on line c&g 2079 exam.