How Can it be allowed!! (Or are certain Manufacturers allowed to bend the rules?)

[Grizzly]

OK. How is it we are all being forced to retrain etc.etc.
When featured in September's Professional Builder.
In their "Green Building Products- Supplement"

Is an advert for Air source Heat Pumps.
Which and I quote " It can be fitted by any qualified Plumber, who has been on the company's one-day training course."

FROM Mitsubishi Electric.
If any doubts this please download my copy from the link below.

Personally this makes my blood boil as to the hypocrisy of it all?
Would someone from Mitsubishi like to explain?

http://www.mediafire.com/?jjamdjuzmzz

A very unhappy Grizzly indeed!!:(:(:mad:

[taz24]

OK. How is it we are all being forced to retrain etc.etc.
When featured in September's Professional Builder.
In their "Green Building Products- Supplement"

Is an advert for Air source Heat Pumps.
Which and I quote " It can be fitted by any qualified Plumber, who has been on the company's one-day training course."

FROM Mitsubishi Electric.
If any doubts this please download my copy from the link below.

Personally this makes my blood boil as to the hypocrisy of it all?
Would someone from Mitsubishi like to explain?

http://www.mediafire.com/?jjamdjuzmzz

A very unhappy Grizzly indeed!!:(:(:mad:



My betting is it is charged with only 2.9Kg of refrigerant and that is how they will get around it.

Still sticks in the throat a bit though.

taz.

[Gary]

It's the golden rule: Those who have the gold make the rule.

[chemi-cool]

Grizzly,
I understand your feelings.

This is a free [??] world and we are playing in the "big guys" field.

I guess all you can do is ban them.

Sometimes, even a company such as Mitsubishi is playing it very stupidly. I am sure it will hit them back like a boomerang in some time when the complaints will start flooding in.

Meanwhile, have a pint and enjoy life.....;)

[Andy]

OK. How is it we are all being forced to retrain etc.etc.
When featured in September's Professional Builder.
In their "Green Building Products- Supplement"

Is an advert for Air source Heat Pumps.
Which and I quote " It can be fitted by any qualified Plumber, who has been on the company's one-day training course."

FROM Mitsubishi Electric.
If any doubts this please download my copy from the link below.

Personally this makes my blood boil as to the hypocrisy of it all?
Would someone from Mitsubishi like to explain?

http://www.mediafire.com/?jjamdjuzmzz

A very unhappy Grizzly indeed!!:(:(:mad:

Hi Grizzly:)

plumbers installing (and commissioning) heat pumps = work for fridge technicians.

Seen it before;)

Kind Regards Andy:)

[multisync]

My betting is it is charged with only 2.9Kg of refrigerant and that is how they will get around it.

Still sticks in the throat a bit though.

taz.

Isn't it a hermetic system and therefore exempt from the regulations?

The weight of refrigerant relates to leak testing not registered engineers.

[NoNickName]

If it's a air to water heat pump, Mitsubishi claim is perfectly right. You don't need a refrigeration engineer to install chillers or reversible packaged heat pumps.

[Thermatech]

Get used to it chaps

In Japan the multi national manufacturers have been given massive incentive by Japan government over the last 10 years to develop air to water heat pumps call ECO CUTE which use CO2 refrigerant.
With government help domestic endusers have paid for arround 5 million Eco Cute water heaters in Japan over the last few years.
These manufacturers now have a 10 year head start over all other manufacturers of CO2 heat pump technology.

In the UK the government has complied with international agrements like Kyoto Protocol by giving away the coal & steel industries to other contries.

In Japan the government has complied with Kyoto protocol by investing in new technology.
The government comply with international aggrements by reduced pollution from using millions of heat pump water heaters.
The japan manufacturers get government support to develop new technology.
Domestic end users in Japan get cheap new water heters which save money on a quick pay back period.
The government get large tax payback from the manufacturers who sell millions of units per year & also income tax form all the employees who work at the factories making all the heat eco cute heat pump water heaters.

And guess what

Thay want to export these products to the rest of the world.

[lowcool]

noticed plumbing wholesalers had splits on the floor a few years ago,havent seen em on the floor the last couple of years for sure and im fairly sure it came from the regulators as it didnt comply to the standards set.

KICK UP A BIG STINK as i and others did to the regulators representatives.

[desA]

Be fun to see what happens when fridgies refuse to assist the end-user.

Send them back to the plumber/installer to rectify installation & unit repairs/failures.

[NoNickName]

Be fun to see what happens when fridgies refuse to assist the end-user.


Not sure this is what will happen.
In times of war, entrenchment is home.
In times of downturn, an air 2 water hp is a job like anything else.

[Brian_UK]

Grizzly, your link wants me to sign in or register ??

[Grizzly]

Grizzly, your link wants me to sign in or register ??


Most unusual?
Thanks for the update Brian.
I will look into it

Locked up on me once , then got the download file on the next three goes!
Anyone else having a problem.

You do get some advertisement crap.
But Hey it's free!

Grizzly

[Quality]

plumbers install these as boilers and pay no attention to the refrigeration circuit, I believe that they do the the same with most of their work, i.e. install without a clue

[fowlie]

funny already been called to one by some swedish firm nibbe i think,some plumbing firm installed it then called us in to change tev as their electrican said it was faulty.did as asked still not working checked found hp sensor dud.let them install them because sooner or later fridge engineers will be needed to fix them

[al]

Although Ecodan is not an air conditioning unit, it shares much of the technology with our current Mr Slim models which are made in Livingston, so we are able to switch production with relative ease,” explained Yoshinori Miyata, Corporate Officer and General Manager, Air-Conditioning & Refrigeration Systems Division of Mitsubishi Electric. “We will be looking to increase production to 10,000 units a year as demand increases.”

From :http://www.plumbingpark.co.uk/plumbing_hvac_article13257.html

Talked to mitsu about this earlier in the year, they see big sales ahead, i see large repair bills with safeties overriden, although it is the first plug and play of its type with a very small footprint, i still think its good for our industry................and mandelson agrees!!!


Business Secretary Lord Mandelson welcomed the announcement saying: "As part of our commitment to developing a sustainable, low carbon economy we are working with UK businesses to promote the UK as the destination of choice for low carbon investment. Together with Mitsubishi Electric we can offer our knowledge, technology and experience to bring about incremental and sizeable reductions in carbon emissions."

[multisync]

From :http://www.plumbingpark.co.uk/plumbing_hvac_article13257.html

Talked to mitsu about this earlier in the year, they see big sales ahead, i see large repair bills with safeties overriden, although it is the first plug and play of its type with a very small footprint, i still think its good for our industry................and mandelson agrees!!!

The problems come when the unit breaks down and our plumbing friend tries to fix it. I suspect he will have a go himself as he hasn't allowed for a qualified engineer to attend in his original quote..

[yinmorrison]

The problems come when the unit breaks down and our plumbing friend tries to fix it. I suspect he will have a go himself as he hasn't allowed for a qualified engineer to attend in his original quote..

More than likely, or else call Mitsi themselves to fix just as happens when Boilers break down.
Wonder how they will deal with it!

[lowcool]

i must definitely be missing something,over here no electronic detector,vac pump,recovery unit,proof of competency and work done in a tradesman like manner,no worky with refrigerants.same can be said for sparkys that cant read control circuits,years ago i used to be able to wire to the main switch!

blah blah blah im curious to now what you blokes have had to sit through for nothing!

get up stand up stand up for your rights just ask bob

CHEERS gluk gluk gluk aaahh

[Thermatech]

A basic problem for any domestic water heating heat pump installation is that the installer ideally needs to be a qualified plumber, a qualified electrician & also a qualified refrigeration engineer.

In the UK there are some plumbing heating engineers who are also qualified electrician.
But I suspect that you would have to go a long way to find an enginner who is fully qualified in all 3.
Lets face it, most plumbers & electricians who carry out domestic work are self employed individuals or only employ a small teem.

So when the heat pumps goes wrong the customer calls the plumber who installed it.
He arrives, lookes at it & tells the customer he thinks its an electrical problem.
So the electrical engineer arrives & tells the customer he cant fix it & needs a refrigeration engineer to look at it.
The refrigeration engineer arrives, identifies the problem & tells the customer he will order the replacement parts.
We can expect that the customer will not be impressed with this type of service.

Because its only a cheep domestic product the domestic customer will not pay for 3 engineers to visit site to trouble shoot the problem.
The installing contractor also cannot afford to keep sending different engineers to look at one little heat pump.

So to provide an acceptable service to the domestic enduser a contractor needs to specialize in domestic heat pumps & have at least one service engineer who is fully qualified plumber / electrician / refrigerantion engineer who will be able to at the minimum identify any problem on the 1st visit & fix on the 2nd. But ideally fix the problem with stock spare parts carried in the van on the 1st visit.

I think there are plumbing heating electrical contractors who are geared up for this type of work in the UK but I suspect that only those who have a good refrigeration engineer on board will be able to provide an acceptable long term service to the domestic endusers.
In the mean time the plumbing heating electrical contractors will have to depend on the manufacturer for on site technical service support.

[Abby Normal]

it probably has pre-charged line sets

[multisync]

it probably has pre-charged line sets

Pre-chargted lines should be covered by the legislation. It is self contained and only has water connections hence selling it to plumbers..

[Thermatech]

The merits of the Mitsubishi Ecodan heat pump compared to others have been discussed on this site before.

But just to advise this is a single package unit.
It is connected to a water cylinder with water flow & return pipes only.
Therefore the idea is that the installer connects F&R pipes, power supply & control cables then commissions.

The water cylinder is special heat pump cylinder made by Kingspan & is designed & optamized for use with the Ecodan heat pump.
It comes complete with gubins like mains inlet pressure regulator, expansion relief valve, backup immersion heater,heat pump circuit pump, DHW & CH pump, DHW zone valve, CH zone valve, control & overheat safety thermostat, room thermostat & 7 day programmer.

So far as the heating / plumbing installer is concerned the ivory white box outside the house with a fan in it is just a water heater & all he does is connect his F&R water pipes to it, carries out normal flush clean of the pipework & fills primary circuit with atifreeze mix.
The electrician installs the power supply & its ready to commission.

So after a one day installation training course he should be able to complete the pipe installation & connect up the control cables & commission the system.

But unless he is a refrigeration engineer he will not be able to carry out any trouble shooting of the irory white box with a fan in it if there is any sort of problem.
Thats not a problem when is new & under warrantee as the manufacturer will provide some technical support.
But what will happen later when the warrantee has expired ?
Will the manufacturer build up a network of heat pump expert engineers located all around the country to carry out service & repair at domestic heating enginner £ rates ?

[Abby Normal]

Pre-chargted lines should be covered by the legislation. It is self contained and only has water connections hence selling it to plumbers..so why does everyone have their panties in a knot if that is the case?


What is the difference between this and the customer buying a window unit?

[multisync]

so why does everyone have their panties in a knot if that is the case?


What is the difference between this and the customer buying a window unit?

I guess it was mistaken for a split system like the Daikin version..

[brunstar]

Even if they do decide to install the Daikin Altherma split type all trdies should be teaming up in groups of 3.
Reason for this is the plumbers are going to condem the boilers not the fridgies. Plumbers, electricians and fridgies need to work together so they can all benefit from each others leads.. Just use the right tradie for the right job...

[Icemankool]

The answer is an easy one: As "Thermotech" has pointed out, they are not "connected" to anything, other than the water cylinder! They use C02 as a refrigerant, and as such, in the event of a refrigeration system breakdown, as the system is completely sealed, with no refrigeration serviceable parts, the system (unit) has to be replaced!
They are not an "indoor unit/ outdoor unit" installation, as I said, the only connections being water flow and return (and a bit of 'leccy of course).
I enquired about going on the Sanyo course, and was told I didn't need to, coz I wasn't a plumber!

Check Out The Sanyo Web Site!